40 replies to this topic

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Alright, so to preface what I did and what I always do when they make a large change to CBill earnings is I make a trial account and play the first 25 matches in a trial mech.

For this specific account, I took the trial Shawk for the 25 matches.

Now, realize that these results are skewed because I'm not a new player, I've been playing over two years. But it should give us an insight into the solo player experience using trial mechs in this new system.

The second account stats:


Now, these stats are when achievements first went in and the Cadet Bonus was nerfed into the dirt. The earnings were knocked down to a fixed 7,984,000 CBills, whereas you used to be able to compound the Cadet Bonus with premium time.

So the earnings went to **** then.



But that was then, this is now.

Here's a new take!










Here are the 24 (of the 25 matches, I think I missed one)

Spoiler

Edited by Lord Scarlett Johan, 27 October 2014 - 08:58 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

And yet in the old system every one of those games woulda been probably 30K higher then now...Its mostly cuz assists dont count for **** and damage equals 0......should PGI add weight back to damage done and jack assist back up, perhaps this new system would be good...

[Karl Marlow]

So by your numbers I am coming away with experienced players make more money.

[Ultimax]

This is a commendable effort, well done.


Considering you aren't a new player, and know the maps, know the mechs etc., then my opinion is that CBill number needs to come up for real new players.

If you're just cracking a bit over 11 mil, then a real cadet probably needs a solid 25% boost on top of that.


Then I'd like to see the following:

• All upgrades for thier first mech (if IS) are 50% off (cbills).
  
• 2x Alternate variants for the chassis of their first mech are 30% off (cbills)
  
• As clan mechs can't purchase upgrades, perhaps some discount on extra weapons/pods (50% off up to a maximum of some number - what ever would be equivalent if an IS Mech to Endo, FF & Artemis).

Edited by Ultimatum X, 27 October 2014 - 09:07 PM.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Ultimatum X, on 27 October 2014 - 09:04 PM, said:

This is a commendable effort, well done.


Considering you aren't a new player, and know the maps, know the mechs etc., then my opinion is that CBill number needs to come up for real new players.

If you're just cracking a bit over 11 mil, then a real cadet probably needs a solid 25% boost on top of that.


Then I'd like to see the following:

• All upgrades for thier first mech (if IS) are 50% off (cbills).
  
• 2x Alternate variants for the chassis of their first mech are 30% off (cbills)
  
• As clan mechs can't purchase upgrades, perhaps some discount on extra weapons/pods (50% off up to a maximum of some number - what ever would be equivalent if an IS Mech to Endo, FF & Artemis).

Exactly.

The boosts need to be larger and longer lasting.

ThomasMarik, on 27 October 2014 - 09:02 PM, said:

So by your numbers I am coming away with experienced players make more money.

Nailed it.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

LordKnightFandragon, on 27 October 2014 - 09:01 PM, said:

And yet in the old system every one of those games woulda been probably 30K higher then now...Its mostly cuz assists dont count for **** and damage equals 0......should PGI add weight back to damage done and jack assist back up, perhaps this new system would be good...

No, it wouldn't. I posted up the snapshot of an earlier account from before this new Rewards System:


87,857 (old) vs. 123,819 (new).

I'm not that much better now than when I did that last account.

[ApolloKaras]

Good post mate.

Give the cadet bonus, give a bonus Cbill income of +75% for week one, 50% for week 2, 25% for week 3 then you are on your own. Alternatively you could give a bonus to the Trial mechs +30% cbills for a period of time.

Limit this to just one per trial account: Another suggestion could be, say you love the Trial Shawk and its your favorite, after x # of matches in the trial hawk you get the base SHawk 2H for free and a 50% discount on the Shawk Chassis.

[Vassago Rain]

Despite being an experienced player stuck in the kiddy pool, on defeats, the game sees fit to reward you with almost nothing. Even when you pull a lot of damage, and your side actually manages a couple kills.

[ApolloKaras]

Vassago Rain, on 27 October 2014 - 09:35 PM, said:

Despite being an experienced player stuck in the kiddy pool, on defeats, the game sees fit to reward you with almost nothing. Even when you pull a lot of damage, and your side actually manages a couple kills.

mmhmm and imagine if you take a complete noober in there. The new guy will not even get close to what Scarlett put up.

[Mothykins]

I'm seeing the average is possibly closer to the other, looking at that KDR number.

3.29 compared to the 1.23, but a much more even WLR.

Reguardless, Even them out to 36 each and post again please?

Edited by Cavale, 27 October 2014 - 09:50 PM.

[WarZ]

ThomasMarik, on 27 October 2014 - 09:02 PM, said:

So by your numbers I am coming away with experienced players make more money.

I'm coming away with experienced player farmed n00bs.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Saxie, on 27 October 2014 - 09:35 PM, said:

Good post mate.

Give the cadet bonus, give a bonus Cbill income of +75% for week one, 50% for week 2, 25% for week 3 then you are on your own. Alternatively you could give a bonus to the Trial mechs +30% cbills for a period of time.

Limit this to just one per trial account: Another suggestion could be, say you love the Trial Shawk and its your favorite, after x # of matches in the trial hawk you get the base SHawk 2H for free and a 50% discount on the Shawk Chassis.

I've actually tried to get it where if the new pilot puts in 50 matches with a trial, they get that mech. So if a new player puts in 50 matches with SHD-2H(C), then they get get that build without the (C).

I'd also like the Cadet Bonus extended to 50 games of 300,000 each, for 15,000,000 CBills. Because I expect the new player to lose 3/4 of their matches contributing very little, netting them in the range of 30,000 to 60,000 CBills per match, which would only give them between 1,800,000 and 2,500,000 CBills on top of their Cadet Bonus.

If they got the free mech, fully kitted out, they'd have the CBills to buy their other two without needing to spend massive load of time getting the CBills for another variant or two.

Cavale, on 27 October 2014 - 09:50 PM, said:

I'm seeing the average is possibly closer to the other, looking at that KDR number.

3.29 compared to the 1.23, but a much more even WLR.

Reguardless, Even them out to 36 each and post again please?

I might, but solo queue in the kiddy pool is hardly fun.

[John1352]

You've gone and gotten 3.29 kills per match and are using this as an estimate of how many cbills a newbie gets. This is a joke thread. If a brand new player gets two kills in their first 25 games without using a LRM boat they're doing quite well. MWO has an extremely steep learning curve.

[Moonlander]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 27 October 2014 - 09:34 PM, said:

No, it wouldn't. I posted up the snapshot of an earlier account from before this new Rewards System:


87,857 (old) vs. 123,819 (new).

I'm not that much better now than when I did that last account.

I think what he is saying is yeah, you're Cbills are higher because with the new system, doing well earns you more. Now, go in there and pretend you know nothing of your mech, it's systems, heat and play as if you're unfamiliar with a map. You would see those Cbills drop to 30-60k for low damage, losses.

A lot of your matches, a first time player would be unlikely to pull off. One of your matches you had 8 kills and almost 800 damage. Most first time players wouldn't have such a match, much less multiples.

I don't want to discount the effort you put into this though. It's nice to see people actually go out there and analyze stuff in real time. You really have to play as if you're completely unaware of how everything works because you're new... to get a more likely end result.

Edited by Moonlander, 27 October 2014 - 10:31 PM.

[Bill Lumbar]

Wow.... Nice job on the little test run. I think it this is a issue and needs to be looked at across the board for all earnings, IMO given the very long road/painful grind we have all had for a very long time if we want to even begin to rock and roll. With around 156 different mechs out right now for C-bills, more coming every month and the high cost of them, lets say AVG of 8 million per mech... I think its safe to say with current earnings for new players coming in and veterans we could play 24/7 30 days a month, for around 3 months and just begin to be in danger of having every chassis in the game right now. That is around 100K avg match earnings, no PT or hero mech to grind out with.

Lets change up to only playing 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, 30 days a month... and that puts us up to around 6 months to earn what content is out now for c-bills. But lets not forget, 156 mechs, DHS at 1.5 million per mech, endero, things like that also..... Hmmmm..... say double that time back up again maybe triple it to 9 months....? But wait, what about Modules needed/ wanted to help be competitive, 3 to 6 million apiece? Better just say at 12 hours a day, 30 days a month of grind, the total needed to even begin to be in danger of all current content is a year and a half at an avg. 100K a match. These are fairly real numbers...not just wild derp.

Is this the type of grind we experience enough to deem painful instead of just a really long one? Do we want New players coming in, and feeling this type of grind also? These are really important questions we should all be asking ourselves, CW is coming, maybe it would be a good Idea to start to address this if after considering some of the real hard numbers that go with value of our time spent vs. earnings overall and enjoyment for Veterans and even more so for the Canyon fodder that will be needed for CW. Is this model on earnings really a plus or a negative to or even sustainable for the current player base, let alone new players coming into this game?

Edited by Bill Lumbar, 27 October 2014 - 10:46 PM.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

John1352, on 27 October 2014 - 10:25 PM, said:

You've gone and gotten 3.29 kills per match and are using this as an estimate of how many cbills a newbie gets. This is a joke thread. If a brand new player gets two kills in their first 25 games without using a LRM boat they're doing quite well. MWO has an extremely steep learning curve.

Hardly a joke thread. Because the best match with 228,917 CBIlls is still about 100,000 short of my primary account before accounting for my Hero and my Premium time.

It's showing the difference in what the goods and the bads make.

Now, the bads make WAY less. widening that gap between the goods and the bads quality of toys significantly. Sending the message of ,"pay up to keep up or hit the road." I don't want to see that.

I'm an experienced player of over two years and those twenty five matches were grindy and unfun. And the moment I finished the 25th drop, I logged into my main, and went into the group queue for about two hours and racked up 6,000,000 CBills.

Moonlander, on 27 October 2014 - 10:29 PM, said:

I think what he is saying is yeah, you're Cbills are higher because with the new system, doing well earns you more. Now, go in there and pretend you know nothing of your mech, it's systems, heat and play as if you're unfamiliar with a map. You would see those Cbills drop to 30-60k for low damage, losses.

A lot of your matches, a first time player would be unlikely to pull off. One of your matches you had 8 kills and almost 800 damage. Most first time players wouldn't have such a match, much less multiples.

I don't want to discount the effort you put into this though. It's nice to see people actually go out there and analyze stuff in real time. You really have to play as if you're completely unaware of how everything works because you're new... to get a more likely end result.

I tried to get some of my real life friends to try this with their accounts, which while they have a real mech now, they hardly log in and have less than 100 matches still. But I couldn't get them to log in for 25 matches for this.

As much as I'd have loved to pretend to be a new player, I just don't know how. I know the maps in and out, the builds in and out, I play out of instinct now. I wouldn't be able to accurately play like a new player, I need an actual new player to do this with his first 25 or 50 and have him send me the pics or have him post them here.

Hey, if we can just get a new player (preferably one that signed up within this last week) to just screenshot his stats to see his average XP and CBills per match, that would speak volumes. It would be even better if we could do so with around 50 new players.

Bill Lumbar, on 27 October 2014 - 10:31 PM, said:

Wow.... Nice job on the little test run. I think it this is a issue and needs to be looked at across the board for all earnings, IMO given the very long road/pain grind we have all had for a very long time if we want to even begin to rock and roll. With around 156 different mechs out right now for C-bills, more coming every month and the high cost of them, lets say AVG of 8 million per mech... I think its safe to say with current earnings for new players coming in and veterans we could play 24/7 30 days a month, for around 3 months and just begin to be in danger of having every chassis in the game right now. That is around 100K avg match earnings, no PT or hero mech to grind out with.

Lets change up to only playing 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, 30 days a month... and that puts us up to around 6 months to earn what content is out now for c-bills. But lets not for get, 156 mechs, DHS at 1.5 million per mech, endero, things like that also..... Hmmmm..... say double that time back up again?

Is this the type of grind we experience enough to deem painful instead of just a really long one? Do we want New players coming in, and feeling this type of grind also? These are really important questions we should all be asking ourselves, CW is coming, maybe it would be a good Idea to start to address this if after considering some of the real hard numbers that go with value of our time spent vs. earnings overall and enjoyment for Veterans and even more so for the Canyon fodder that will be needed for CW. Is this model on earnings really a plus or a negative to or even sustainable for the current player base, let alone new players coming into this game?

This test was painful, but it's hard to get new players to stick with it long. And I've been unable to get any of my friends to play it and try out the first 25 and take screens of their first 25, just so we can see how hard the grind is on them.

Tonight, in group queue I made 6,000,000 with premium time and no heroes and I did it in 16 drops. That's basically 375,000 CBills a drop. That's ludicrous when compared to the new account that needs the Cadet Bonus to keep up with that, and once that Cadet bonus is up? They're down to making 60-120k if they're ****-hot.

[Bill Lumbar]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 27 October 2014 - 10:48 PM, said:

Hardly a joke thread. Because the best match with 228,917 CBIlls is still about 100,000 short of my primary account before accounting for my Hero and my Premium time.

It's showing the difference in what the goods and the bads make.

Now, the bads make WAY less. widening that gap between the goods and the bads quality of toys significantly. Sending the message of ,"pay up to keep up or hit the road." I don't want to see that.

I'm an experienced player of over two years and those twenty five matches were grindy and unfun. And the moment I finished the 25th drop, I logged into my main, and went into the group queue for about two hours and racked up 6,000,000 CBills.



I tried to get some of my real life friends to try this with their accounts, which while they have a real mech now, they hardly log in and have less than 100 matches still. But I couldn't get them to log in for 25 matches for this.

As much as I'd have loved to pretend to be a new player, I just don't know how. I know the maps in and out, the builds in and out, I play out of instinct now. I wouldn't be able to accurately play like a new player, I need an actual new player to do this with his first 25 or 50 and have him send me the pics or have him post them here.

Hey, if we can just get a new player (preferably one that signed up within this last week) to just screenshot his stats to see his average XP and CBills per match, that would speak volumes. It would be even better if we could do so with around 50 new players.



This test was painful, but it's hard to get new players to stick with it long. And I've been unable to get any of my friends to play it and try out the first 25 and take screens of their first 25, just so we can see how hard the grind is on them.

Tonight, in group queue I made 6,000,000 with premium time and no heroes and I did it in 16 drops. That's basically 375,000 CBills a drop. That's ludicrous when compared to the new account that needs the Cadet Bonus to keep up with that, and once that Cadet bonus is up? They're down to making 60-120k if they're ****-hot.

IMO, without PT or a hero mech, ALL players earnings should be around 165,000ish for a bad match, ranging all the way up to 650,000ish for a very well played match and would be reasonable earnings. This would simply take the 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, 30 days a month down to about year to grind out all the current mechs for c-bills with upgrades for just the IS ones... DHS, etc. etc. and forget adding the modules into that figure or the time spent to obtain them. Is this model reasonable for Veteran diehards, or worse yet... New players coming into this game with hopes to get better and contribute in Pug matches, What about CW?

I Don't want to speak for other Veterans and die hard that have been here longer than I, but I have to ask you guys, do we really want to have just Canyon fodder to play against in CW, other than us? I feel like this would be all we will have if many Veterans just might make enough now, or have dealt with this earnings model that just have enough mechs in their hangers to fill up their drop ship's with what they feel they will play the best in to battle for their factions. Some may have enough saved from years of grind, but I know I am one that could use 4 more radar deps.... and 4 of each of several different modules for the mechs I would like to fight with in CW drops.

I really think the new method the developers came up with for rewards is a step in the right direction. When looking at the numbers I just listed, I have to ask, how will this effect the New players wanting to get in on CW and be a contribution to their factions if there progression to even purchase mechs so they can find what they play best in is so painfully long? The numbers are fairly real, and at 12 hours a day played with out PT or hero mechs.
I want a challenge, not New players that we throw into the mix and by the current earnings model.... in 2016 they might have a chance to be something more than just easy targets because they won't have more then 40 mechs mastered of the 156 currently out right now, if they are lucky. Isn't trying new mechs, many of the different ones we have in such a great and rich lore of this game what made it great?

Edited by Bill Lumbar, 28 October 2014 - 08:25 AM.

[Xetelian]

New players probably don't start off with a positive K/D...

[Moonlander]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 27 October 2014 - 10:48 PM, said:

I tried to get some of my real life friends to try this with their accounts, which while they have a real mech now, they hardly log in and have less than 100 matches still. But I couldn't get them to log in for 25 matches for this.

As much as I'd have loved to pretend to be a new player, I just don't know how. I know the maps in and out, the builds in and out, I play out of instinct now. I wouldn't be able to accurately play like a new player, I need an actual new player to do this with his first 25 or 50 and have him send me the pics or have him post them here.

Hey, if we can just get a new player (preferably one that signed up within this last week) to just screenshot his stats to see his average XP and CBills per match, that would speak volumes. It would be even better if we could do so with around 50 new players.

Nice effort nonetheless. I'm going to ask a friend of mine. He's familiar with FPS games but not MWO at all. I expect most new players have at least some sort of FPS-esque experience, even something like WoT. I don't expect new players to be completely oblvious to games of this genre. Maybe also find someone who is more of an MMORPG player (like WoW or GW or something) to give it a whirl to see the differences in player type and how much of a learning curve there is.

I'm going to work on it tomorrow. Not 50 people but 2 different types of brand new players. I know 1 of them for sure will help me with this and the other is an almost sure thing. Will post here when I have the info.

Thanks again for going out there tho! Never hurts to just check stuff out for the community!

Edited by Moonlander, 27 October 2014 - 11:14 PM.

[Brody319]

I've suggested two systems to assist new players.
1. two free mechs, A new player after their cadet bonus runs out, can pick any 2 non champion, non hero, mechs and they get them for free. They want 2 direwhales, fine they get them for free. Doesn't take away their cadet bonus so they can use that money to buy the last of the 3 chassis they need, or refit the two they own.
2. Renting system. In addition to trials, players can pick 2-3 mechs to rent for free. They are added and can be customized in every way, engine weapons armor ect. however when the renting period ends, all additions and changes are stripped and the mechs are put up for c-bills again. Meaning a new player can then rebuy it, and customize it again. All equipment on that mech cannot be sold, so no stripping assaults selling the parts and then making money, and you cannot skill them up.