115 replies to this topic

[Gryphorim]

KamikazeRat, on 29 October 2014 - 02:27 PM, said:

PPC Range +7.5%
Energy Weapon Range +7.5%
PPC cooldown -7.5%
Energy Weapon Cooldown -7.5%
Ballistic Weapon Range +10%

This is what I would have done

PPC specific, energy weapon general
the Ballistic Range affects MG, its the only buff that does. it also affects, all ballistics

Stock build encouraged, "meta" builds (as well as other odd-ball builds) get buffed too. no one feels left out.

win-win?

EDIT: stupid color-codes

I mostly agree, but would have gone with PPC velocity 15% rather than PPC range 7.5%

[KamikazeRat]

Gryphorim, on 29 October 2014 - 02:32 PM, said:

I mostly agree, but would have gone with PPC velocity 15% rather than PPC range 7.5%

all i did was take what was there and change medium laser to ppc. and then laser duration to cooldown, then ballistic cooldown to range

after looking at their charts...its clear that the problem is them calling it a skirmisher, when in order to get ppc quirks it needs to be in a support role.

[Mothykins]

KamikazeRat, on 29 October 2014 - 02:37 PM, said:

all i did was take what was there and change medium laser to ppc. and then laser duration to cooldown, then ballistic cooldown to range

after looking at their charts...its clear that the problem is them calling it a skirmisher, when in order to get ppc quirks it needs to be in a support role.

Pretty sure it's a Support Mech though.

Giant Torso, huge glass canopy to shoot... arms that don't cover the torso... High mounts for seeing over things...

[Alistair Winter]

DarthPeanut, on 29 October 2014 - 10:23 AM, said:

Since we have dueling threads on this topic... I will copy over something I posted on the other to appease my OCD.

Let's say they quirk PPC on the K2 and now it is iconically lore correct with the appropriate tier PPC buffs. The question then would be is it good and does it really helps the K2 be more competitive in this game rather than just lore correct? Lets be honest, not really.

The quirks would have to be extremes to make a PPC speed/ heat at a level where that K2 build was solid.

If I had known that Pgi would use this spreadsheet system for quirks, I would have restrained my enthusiasm in the first place. I really don't why they're obsessed with normalizing the values to fit neatly into separate categories.

That being said, the K2 is in the same boat as the Aws-8q. Their stock builds only work with quirks that counter their deficiencies. But of course they can be made viable, if the bonus is high enough.

[Prezimonto]

DarthPeanut, on 29 October 2014 - 10:23 AM, said:

Since we have dueling threads on this topic... I will copy over something I posted on the other to appease my OCD.

Let's say they quirk PPC on the K2 and now it is iconically lore correct with the appropriate tier PPC buffs. The question then would be is it good and does it really helps the K2 be more competitive in this game rather than just lore correct? Lets be honest, not really.

The quirks would have to be extremes to make a PPC speed/ heat at a level where that K2 build was solid.

I don't think they'd have to be huge. Anything that can repeatedly fire 2x PPC is a decent threat, and the K2 has the highest mounted PPC's relative to the cockpit in the game, making it's a great hill humper.

What they need to a special quirk set that helps the K2 completely own the 2x PPC build. Something along the lines of the original Dragon 1N build, where 2x AC5's would have been completely mean, and the mech actually received a boost using 2. I'd completely avoid quirking the ballistic weapons. The third quirk could be a 2x PPC quirk, doubling up on the energy range or cooldown with a second PPC. I actually don't mind if some of the quirks don't split to "generic". Or it could give the heat benefit to PPC's... we still have ghost heat so more than 2 will suck anyway.

[Koniving]

MoonUnitBeta, on 28 October 2014 - 09:31 PM, said:

Just wondering if you guys have any input why there's no PPC's in there?

Yes I get that Energy weapon quirks affect ppc's, but why are medium lasers preferred when stock loadout is PPC's?

Edit: Cleaned up the quote. (got rid of the color=#FF65418 stuff)

I only foresee one real build getting a bonus from that. (Russ's K2 buffs)

(I think near the end is priceless).

Edited by Koniving, 30 October 2014 - 05:02 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

Prezimonto, on 30 October 2014 - 04:57 AM, said:

What they need to a special quirk set that helps the K2 completely own the 2x PPC build. Something along the lines of the original Dragon 1N build, where 2x AC5's would have been completely mean, and the mech actually received a boost using 2. I'd completely avoid quirking the ballistic weapons. The third quirk could be a 2x PPC quirk, doubling up on the energy range or cooldown with a second PPC. I actually don't mind if some of the quirks don't split to "generic". Or it could give the heat benefit to PPC's... we still have ghost heat so more than 2 will suck anyway.

Not sure if I already suggested it in this thread, but I think a PPC cooldown, projectile speed and range bonus would encourage the use of dual PPCs, yet discourage 3 or 4 PPCs. Because without a heat reduction, the CPLT-K2 won't have enough heatsinks to use 3 or 4 PPCs effectively. But the cooldown and projectile speed bonus will let it rapid fire 2 PPCs enough to achieve high DPS.

[Joe Mallad]

Ok... Let me explain the K2 to some.

The K2, while being labeled as a Skirmisher is actually a Support/Skirmisher.

What do I mean by that? It's meant to support from a distance with the PPCs "until" it can get in close where its meant to be. Even with its base machine guns and lasers, its always meant to be a Skirmisher. Hit you with PPCs until it or you get within its PPC minimum range, where it's real teeth then come out. And that's exactly how PGI quirked it.

You want to run PPCS anything or Ballistic anything? Fine do that, you got some buffs for those (support) weapons.
But if you keep the MLs as intended, that's were you will do the most effective damage from med to close range. And the ML and energy quirks represent its ability to skirmish.

Also, to skirmish mean to get in, do your damage and back off, hit and back off, hit and back off. Quick deadly engagements. Not prolonged fights like the brawlers.

Yes the K2 in lore is all about the PPCs but they were not ever its main weapon. Its always been about its med to close range fire power.

Edited by Yoseful Mallad, 30 October 2014 - 05:20 AM.

[Prezimonto]

Yoseful Mallad, on 30 October 2014 - 05:16 AM, said:

Ok... Let me explain the K2 to some.

The K2, while being labeled as a Skirmisher is actually a Support/Skirmisher.

What do I mean by that? It's meant to support from a distance with the PPCs "until" it can get in close where its meant to be. Even with its base machine guns and lasers, its always meant to be a Skirmisher. Hit you with PPCs until it or you get within its PPC minimum range, where it's real teeth then come out. And that's exactly how PGI quirked it.

You want to run PPCS anything or Ballistic anything? Fine do that, you got some buffs for those (support) weapons.
By if you keep the MLs as intended, that's were you will do the most effective damage from med to close range. And the ML and energy quirks represent its ability to skirmish.

Also, to skirmish mean to get in, do your damage and back off, hit and back off, hit and back off. Quick deadly engagements. Not prolonged fights like the brawlers.

Yes the K2 in lore is all about the PPCs but they were not ever its main weapon. Its always been about its med to close range fire power.

2 medium lasers doesn't make a useful skirmisher, PPC's are terrible skirmish weapons due to the minimum range requirement, and the K2 doesn't have the jump jets of the other catapults or the raw speed of the Dragons, or both from the quickdraw. It makes a fairly bad skirmisher with anything except medium to large ballistic weapons paired with 4 medium lasers.

It is a support mech, just like all the other catapults, and one of the better direct fire support mechs in the game, capable of dual gauss and dual ppc builds. The Dual PPC builds can be very effective due to the high mounted arms.

[Alistair Winter]

Yoseful Mallad, on 30 October 2014 - 05:16 AM, said:

Ok... Let me explain the K2 to some.
The K2, while being labeled as a Skirmisher is actually a Support/Skirmisher.
What do I mean by that? It's meant to support from a distance with the PPCs "until" it can get in close where its meant to be. Even with its base machine guns and lasers, its always meant to be a Skirmisher. Hit you with PPCs until it or you get within its PPC minimum range, where it's real teeth then come out. And that's exactly how PGI quirked it.
You want to run PPCS anything or Ballistic anything? Fine do that, you got some buffs for those (support) weapons.
But if you keep the MLs as intended, that's were you will do the most effective damage from med to close range. And the ML and energy quirks represent its ability to skirmish.
Also, to skirmish mean to get in, do your damage and back off, hit and back off, hit and back off. Quick deadly engagements. Not prolonged fights like the brawlers.
Yes the K2 in lore is all about the PPCs but they were not ever its main weapon. Its always been about its med to close range fire power.

That would be fine, except the K2 can't really do that in MWO, due to the lack of hardpoints. The only real way it can have the role of a striker (i.e. striking weak spots and backing off) would be if it had the teeth you speak of to finish a kill at close range. But PGI reduced its hardpoints to the point where you're forced to carry big weapons, while giving a lot of other mechs a bunch of extra hardpoints. So while other mechs can boat medium lasers and finish off kills at close range, the K2 cannot do that.

EDIT: If we were playing Stock Mech Mondays, it would be better for the K2.

I'm not quite sure how to interpret your comment, but seems as if you're saying that the AC10+4xMlas build is the only way to let the K2 be a striker, as it's supposed to be. Or a Support-Skirmisher, if you will. But to me, that's kind of like saying that the CPLT-C1 should have an ER LL bonus, because that will facilitate its role as a support mech, albeit with ER LLs instead of LRMs. Thus reducing a famous LRM carrier to a laserboat, the same way the K2 has been reduced to a gauss or AC10 carrier.

It doesn't compute.

If, on the other hand, you're arguing that the CPLT-K2 should be a PPC carrier with the ability to switch between "Skirmish" and "Support" roles, then I would agree with you. And I'd say the only solution would be to either increase hardpoints or give some cooldown bonus that increases its DPS.

Edited by Alistair Winter, 30 October 2014 - 05:29 AM.

[Maxx Blue]

I just saw the quirks for the firebrand...now I am pissed. The FB gets PPC/Energy heat, energy cooldown, ballistic velocity, and an internal structure buff. What...the...hell. I'm pretty sure that, when you take into account the smaller number of energy hardpoints and restricted torso vertical movement, this makes the K2 worse at pretty much every build you might want to take than a Firebrand. Overall, the quirks seem like a great idea, but really...medium lasers? We only get to mount 4 of them...like a jenner D or K...or a Death Knell. Sorry, but 4 medium lasers aren't going to transform the K2, no matter how much you buff them. Plus any theoretically OP build you might be able to make with a K2 with PPC's is now going to be actually possible with the FB. Nope...nope, nope, nope.

Edited by Maxx Blue, 30 October 2014 - 06:29 PM.

[Mothykins]

Maxx Blue, on 30 October 2014 - 06:28 PM, said:

I just saw the quirks for the firebrand...now I am pissed. The FB gets PPC/Energy heat, energy cooldown, ballistic velocity, and an internal structure buff. What...the...hell. I'm pretty sure that, when you take into account the smaller number of energy hardpoints and restricted torso vertical movement, this makes the K2 worse at pretty much every build you might want to take than a Firebrand. Overall, the quirks seem like a great idea, but really...medium lasers? We only get to mount 4 of them...like a jenner D or K...or a Death Knell. Sorry, but 4 medium lasers aren't going to transform the K2, no matter how much you buff them. Plus any theoretically OP build you might be able to make with a K2 with PPC's is now going to be actually possible with the FB. Nope...nope, nope, nope.

P2W Bub.

[Macksheen]

Cavale, on 30 October 2014 - 07:03 PM, said:

P2W Bub.

Tell that to the Boar's Head, Grid Iron ... etc.

[Mothykins]

Macksheen, on 30 October 2014 - 07:06 PM, said:

Tell that to the Boar's Head, Grid Iron ... etc.

... Gridiron is good point.

Boars head is looking scary with the Pulse buffs.

[Liquid Leopard]

Yeonne Greene, on 28 October 2014 - 09:41 PM, said:

Probably because PPCs are not unique to the K2. While that's what they had in lore, any Catapult apart from the A1 can run them. The ballistics, on the other hand, are entirely unique to the K2 and are the real reason for buying the 'Mech.

The K2 is the only Catapult that can mount the PPCs on the arms. I thought the whole idea of the K2 was to be able to take the heaviest energy weapon, and fire over terrain without exposing your mech from the waist up. The K2 is still a CT on legs, without the structural perks of the other Catapults.

Maybe top-tier players don't care about exposing their CT. ...Or maybe they do, and play Firebrands instead of K2s.
Well, I agree with Alistair Winter that the Jager is ugly as **** (though I haven't sold mine), and I was hoping for the K2 to get some decent help.

Furthermore:
The K2 looks bad-ass with PPCs on the arms.
The K2 came with PPCs, and it really should have PPC perks.

Here's hoping PGI adds PPC perks in the future.

[Alistair Winter]

Really glad to see this thread resurrected. I hope Russ Bullock replies soon.

[Liquid Leopard]

I think the CPLT-K2 should have the same perks as the AWS-8Q:
PPC Heat Gen -12.5%
Energy Heat Gen -12.5%
PPC Range +12.5%
Energy Range +12.5%
PPC Velocity +12.5%
PPC Cooldown 12.5% faster
Energy Cooldown 12.5% faster
Laser Duration -15%

I don't care what they do with ballistics. If someone was going to use heavy ballistics on the K2, they were doing it long before the quirks and perks came along.

EDIT: Ninja-buffed!
The mechlab now shows the perks as:
Additional Structure (CT) +10%
Additional Structure (LA) +10%
Additional Structure (RA) + 10%
Ballistic Range +10%
Energy Heat Generation -10%
Laser Duration -7.5%
Medium Laser Duration -7.5%
PPC Velocity +20%

PGI listened to us?!? (lol)

[TimePeriod]

Yep, 20% velocity bonus. Now we're talking

[Y E O N N E]

Liquid Leopard, on 15 November 2014 - 12:25 PM, said:

The K2 is the only Catapult that can mount the PPCs on the arms. I thought the whole idea of the K2 was to be able to take the heaviest energy weapon, and fire over terrain without exposing your mech from the waist up. The K2 is still a CT on legs, without the structural perks of the other Catapults.

Maybe top-tier players don't care about exposing their CT. ...Or maybe they do, and play Firebrands instead of K2s.
Well, I agree with Alistair Winter that the Jager is ugly as **** (though I haven't sold mine), and I was hoping for the K2 to get some decent help.

Furthermore:
The K2 looks bad-ass with PPCs on the arms.
The K2 came with PPCs, and it really should have PPC perks.

Here's hoping PGI adds PPC perks in the future.

The arms is the one place I would not mount the PPCs. They are too big and are easily removed at any range. Everybody knows to focus the arms on a Catapult. It's exacerbated when, by ridge humping, they are the largest part of your 'Mech visible to enemy fire. High-mounted PPCs do not help you when they are gone. Furthermore, you don't need ridge-humping capability if there is tall cover available to peek around, and that is something present more often than not.

I use twin ERPPC in my K2 with a STD 275 and 19 DHS. I place them in the side torsos along with a pair of MGs (for lulz). Medium lasers go in the arms to deal with those rare instances I can't get my ERPPCs to bear.This build arrangement has been great so far. The long range and surprisingly low heat gives it phenomenal flexibility, able to go from sniping targets 1200 meters away to light brawling under 300 meters. And light rushes against the generator? Not a problem. The torso tracks fast enough and far enough to be able to maim those slippery bastages with reliability without giving them an easy way to cripple you back (which is what putting them in the arms would do).

[EvilCow]

20% speed is nice but, as predicted, the K2 didn't become a TW killer. It is just borderline interesting.

The Catapult would require a rescaling, it is just too big.