161 replies to this topic

[Vahnn]

You jerk, now I have to play my 2x MPL 5V for my next 30 games just to prove you wrong. =(

[Chewbacca o7]

I love the Spider 5V. I have made 700dmg + with LPL XL 285 and 5JJ's.

Edited by Chewbacca o7, 09 March 2016 - 06:24 AM.

[Sjorpha]

Xarian, on 29 October 2014 - 09:36 AM, said:

This is not a viable build. Why? It's too slow. Here are the commandments for using the Spider 5V:

• If you are not using long-ranged weapons, then you must take the largest engine that you can - this applies to all very light mechs
  
• You must take all of your jump jets - this is the only unique feature of the Spider 5V. Otherwise, just take the Spider 5D or 5K because they are better in every respect.
  
• You must take as much armor as you can - except for your Arms, because they are useless on the Spider 5V

"I made these silly rules for myself, and now I can't make a viable build without breaking them!"

Mmmm...kay...

[Zerberus]

Tastian, on 29 October 2014 - 10:21 AM, said:

And maybe the Locusts (and other lights) could allow less then 10 heat sinks.

This idea invalidates one fo the most the basic mech construction rules that have been in place since 1984. It has never been possible in any BT /MW game, Offline or On, ever to drop with less than 10 HS. And I see absolutely no valid reason to change that just for the sake of pointless min /maxing of mechs that were not ever designed to fulfill the roles some want it to..
________________
A lot of people incl the OP seem to want to put a square peg in a round hole, OK. And as you´re seeing, that doesn´t work. Good, that means basic reasoning functions are still active.

BUT: instead of understanding the difference and looking for the square hole like any infant would (in this case, a different chassis), you want PGI to make the round hole square, AND able to fit the round pegs as well.

It just doesn´t work that way... especially since many of the limitations being stated as reasons are entiirely self imposed and in no way "commandments".

Bottom line, It´s not PGIs fault that you are pigeonholing yourself and your mechs by limiting loadout choices for no reason other that some personal belief system in how certain mechs should be played... it is entirely yours, nobody at all is obligated to share (or even respect) your opinions and beliefs, and as you may be noticing most disagree entirely.

Edited by Zerberus, 09 March 2016 - 07:00 AM.

[nehebkau]

@ op,
Just drop a couple of jump-jets, put in an xl 285 and put on ferro... boom 164 kph.

[Almond Brown]

Drop 2 jets and put an erLL. Now you have speed (148) and range (+/- 700m) with which to work.

[KodiakGW]

Necro thread much? OP was from October 2014, and last post before today was a year ago. We've been through through Quirkening 2.0 since then.

[Kaeb Odellas]

RISE FROM YOUR GRAVE

Zerberus, on 09 March 2016 - 06:53 AM, said:

This idea invalidates one fo the most the basic mech construction rules that have been in place since 1984. It has never been possible in any BT /MW game, Offline or On, ever to drop with less than 10 HS. And I see absolutely no valid reason to change that just for the sake of pointless min /maxing of mechs that were not ever designed to fulfill the roles some want it to..
________________
A lot of people incl the OP seem to want to put a square peg in a round hole, OK. And as you´re seeing, that doesn´t work. Good, that means basic reasoning functions are still active.

BUT: instead of understanding the difference and looking for the square hole like any infant would (in this case, a different chassis), you want PGI to make the round hole square, AND able to fit the round pegs as well.

It just doesn´t work that way... especially since many of the limitations being stated as reasons are entiirely self imposed and in no way "commandments".

Bottom line, It´s not PGIs fault that you are pigeonholing yourself and your mechs by limiting loadout choices for no reason other that some personal belief system in how certain mechs should be played... it is entirely yours, nobody at all is obligated to share (or even respect) your opinions and beliefs, and as you may be noticing most disagree entirely.

The 10 heatsink rule is arbitrary nonsense and there's no reason PGI should be beholden to it. There is absolutely no reason that a mech shouldn't be able to run less than 10 heatsinks. Do mechs with just 10 HS keel over dead when enemy fire knocks out one of its heatsinks? No? Then why should it need to roll out with all 10 if it doesn't need them?

Hell, 6 DHS cools better than 10 SHS anyway.

As for roles, there is no role that the Spider 5V fills that can't be filled better by something with more firepower. The best way to win this game is to kill mechs, and to do that your mech either has to be good at killing mechs itself or helping teammates kill mechs, Since this mech is among the worst in the game at killing, it needs to be very, very good at helping. But is it?

One way to assist friendlies is by scouting, but just about any fast mech can do that, and many other fast mechs have jump jets too. The 5V might be unrivaled in jump capability, but there is no situation in which having 14 jump jets gives a real game-changing advantage.

Another way is LRM spotting, but again, any mech can do that, and mechs with ECM are even better at it since they can spot while staying hidden.

Distraction is another way to assist your team, and one that lights are particularly well-suited for. But again, any light can be a distracting squirrel, and most other lights can actually hit hard while doing so.

Capping is another way to win the game, but again, any fast mech can cap and capping is completely nonexistent in one of the quick play modes and in CW.


So what role is the 5V supposed to play exactly? Right now it makes for a fine mechbay decoration, but it's good for little else but trolling your own team. What is a square peg to do in a game that has no square holes?

[Zerberus]

Kaeb Odellas, on 09 March 2016 - 10:25 AM, said:

The 10 heatsink rule is arbitrary nonsense and there's no reason PGI should be beholden to it. There is absolutely no reason that a mech shouldn't be able to run less than 10 heatsinks. Do mechs with just 10 HS keel over dead when enemy fire knocks out one of its heatsinks? No? Then why should it need to roll out with all 10 if it doesn't need them?

For you it may be "arbitrary nonsense", just like I consider a speed limit of 90 KM/h on country roads to be arbitrary nonsense.

But the fact of the matter is that it has been this way since Battledroids, and as such is an integral part of BT and with it MW. Change that, and in many ways it ceases to become mechwarrior, becasue then I can run an Atlas with a 100 engine and no external hs if I want to, giving me significantly more tonnage and space for weapons than even a Dire Wolf.. It wil be slow as **** and incapable of reversing, but it will be so heavily armed nobody will ever dare approach it, anyway.

Those rules exist specifically to make that kind of idiocy impossible...I think we have enough ways to make Joke + trollbuilds as is without throwing the basic build rules aout the window. Becasue taking out one will give precedent for removing others, and that opens the floodgates for changing crit and tonnage values, and we eventually end up with 46 cERLL direwolves with 100 rated engines...

Edited by Zerberus, 09 March 2016 - 10:55 AM.

[Durant Carlyle]

Kaeb Odellas, on 09 March 2016 - 10:25 AM, said:

The 10 heatsink rule is arbitrary nonsense

That might be true ... but it's in-universe arbitrary nonsense.

Just like the arbitrary rule that all 'Mechs have the same number of critical slots, despite the obvious size differences. They do have an optional rule where lighter chassis have less slots, but it breaks a lot of stock 'Mechs.

Edit: And yes, quite nice thread necro going on here...

Edited by Durant Carlyle, 09 March 2016 - 11:03 AM.

[FupDup]

Zerberus, on 09 March 2016 - 10:52 AM, said:

For you it may be "arbitrary nonsense", just like I consider a speed limit of 90 KM/h on country roads to be arbitrary nonsense.

But the fact of the matter is that it has been this way since Battledroids, and as such is an integral part of BT and with it MW. Change that, and in many ways it ceases to become mechwarrior, becasue then I can run an Atlas with a 100 engine and no external hs if I want to, giving me significantly more tonnage and space for weapons than even a Dire Wolf.. It wil be slow as **** and incapable of reversing, but it will be so heavily armed nobody will ever dare approach it, anyway.

Those rules exist specifically to make that kind of idiocy impossible...I think we have enough ways to make Joke + trollbuilds as is without throwing the basic build rules aout the window. Becasue taking out one will give precedent for removing others, and that opens the floodgates for changing crit and tonnage values, and we eventually end up with 46 cERLL direwolves with 100 rated engines...

Honestly, a STD100 Atlas would be pretty much useless. That's not a very good example.

For one thing, that tiny engine will give you very, very, VERY low agility, You won't be able to turn or twist worth anything. People think that the Daishi with an XL300 has bad agility, now imagine a mech that has 66% LOWER agility than a Daishi. Let that sink in for a moment...

Your top speed would be a mere 16.2 kph, for reference.

Atlases don't have the number or type of hardpoints needed to actually max out on that kind of available tonnage, so you actually wouldn't gain as much firepower as you think you would.

Also, with that much tonnage, you will run out of critical slots long before you use up all of that weight. You'll run out of slots even faster than a Warhawk.

Lastly, Smurfys says that the Atlas has a minimum engine cap of 200, so you can't even use a 100 if you wanted to. Both options are still terrible, though.

---

PS: 46 CERLL Dire Wolf? That is literally impossible. You don't have the hardpoints or the critical slots to do that. And even if you did, you wouldn't have enough heat efficiency to make use of them for more than about five seconds, and that's only if you chainfired.

And if you're just chainfiring, mounting that many would be stupid because you would always have 40 of them fully reloaded at any time, which is redundant. You probably only need like 5 or 6 to keep up a continuous chainfire beam.

[The Amazing Spider Man]

The 5V has two things going for it: speed. If you use it for anything else there is another mech that does it better.

The jumping Cicada (F) has a top speed of 148 versus the Spider at 165, can jump just a squeak higher, is better armored and has an alpha at least double the 5V.

The second thing is the only reason to own one: the little buggers look cool/are fun to pilot.

[thehiddenedge]

148 too slow?

[Kuritaclan]

Kaeb Odellas, on 29 October 2014 - 09:52 AM, said:

I do agree that energy heat quirks are kind of pointless. I would very much rather have your jump jet and fall damage quirks.

NO the energy heat quirks are not pointless. I like to run and level my Spiders with a single LPL
SDR-5V 1LPL 2MPL build up even more heat in the same time.

It still would be heat starved on a hot map with that kind of cds quirks and a cd modules. Sure it would take some time to build up that heat. However with only one weapon or two it's a bit ridiculous that you could overheat that much anyway with 10 Engine DHS.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Zerberus, on 09 March 2016 - 10:52 AM, said:

For you it may be "arbitrary nonsense", just like I consider a speed limit of 90 KM/h on country roads to be arbitrary nonsense.

But the fact of the matter is that it has been this way since Battledroids, and as such is an integral part of BT and with it MW. Change that, and in many ways it ceases to become mechwarrior, becasue then I can run an Atlas with a 100 engine and no external hs if I want to, giving me significantly more tonnage and space for weapons than even a Dire Wolf.. It wil be slow as **** and incapable of reversing, but it will be so heavily armed nobody will ever dare approach it, anyway.

Those rules exist specifically to make that kind of idiocy impossible...I think we have enough ways to make Joke + trollbuilds as is without throwing the basic build rules aout the window. Becasue taking out one will give precedent for removing others, and that opens the floodgates for changing crit and tonnage values, and we eventually end up with 46 cERLL direwolves with 100 rated engines...

Idiocy is absolutely right. Neither your Atlas or Dire Wolf would be in any way useful in this game. You'd be trolling your team with such moronic builds more than anything else. If that kind of stupidity is your reason for maintaining the 10 heatsink rule, I question your grasp on this game's mechanics. I mean for pete's sake? 46 ERLLs? You mean to tell me that nixing the heatsink rule is automatically going to make PGI abandon the hardpoint system, heat system, and make the Dire Wolf a 200 ton mech?

Removing the 10 heatsink rule would buff certain underperforming light chassis, mainly some Locusts and big ballistic focused light/medium builds, and dual-Gauss platforms. That's about it. None of those are game-breaking at all. It's not going to open the floodgates to PGI completely revamping every aspect of the game's mech construction rules, because they simply do not have the resources to do that. Use your goddamn brain. It took them years to do something about the Flamer.

Durant Carlyle, on 09 March 2016 - 11:02 AM, said:

That might be true ... but it's in-universe arbitrary nonsense.

Just like the arbitrary rule that all 'Mechs have the same number of critical slots, despite the obvious size differences. They do have an optional rule where lighter chassis have less slots, but it breaks a lot of stock 'Mechs.

Edit: And yes, quite nice thread necro going on here...

IIRC, the in-universe excuse is that the 10 heatsink rule is for "safety". Seeing as a sub-250 engine mech could lose every heatsink outside the engine and not automatically keel over dead, I'd say that's a nonsense excuse. Clan tech is supposed to be better in every way to IS tech "in-universe", but obviously that's not going to fly in the game PGI is making, so they had to make a change there. Why not here?

Kuritaclan, on 09 March 2016 - 06:46 PM, said:

NO the energy heat quirks are not pointless. I like to run and level my Spiders with a single LPL
SDR-5V 1LPL 2MPL build up even more heat in the same time.

It still would be heat starved on a hot map with that kind of cds quirks and a cd modules. Sure it would take some time to build up that heat. However with only one weapon or two it's a bit ridiculous that you could overheat that much anyway with 10 Engine DHS.

Without heat quirks, that build could not even overheat a fully elited 5V unlocked at max ROF standing still on a heat neutral map. Sure you'd eventually overheat if you're running and jumping constantly, but the advantage of being fast and squirrely is that you can simply run away to cool down when you need to. A 2 MPL build with the 25% cooldown/duration quirks would still take 90 seconds to overheat the same stationary Spider on the same map.

[LordNothing]

meh, i just did this:

SDR-5V

[Bishop Steiner]

FupDup, on 09 March 2016 - 11:07 AM, said:

Honestly, a STD100 Atlas would be pretty much useless. That's not a very good example.

For one thing, that tiny engine will give you very, very, VERY low agility, You won't be able to turn or twist worth anything. People think that the Daishi with an XL300 has bad agility, now imagine a mech that has 66% LOWER agility than a Daishi. Let that sink in for a moment...

Your top speed would be a mere 16.2 kph, for reference.

Atlases don't have the number or type of hardpoints needed to actually max out on that kind of available tonnage, so you actually wouldn't gain as much firepower as you think you would.

Also, with that much tonnage, you will run out of critical slots long before you use up all of that weight. You'll run out of slots even faster than a Warhawk.

Lastly, Smurfys says that the Atlas has a minimum engine cap of 200, so you can't even use a 100 if you wanted to. Both options are still terrible, though.

---

PS: 46 CERLL Dire Wolf? That is literally impossible. You don't have the hardpoints or the critical slots to do that. And even if you did, you wouldn't have enough heat efficiency to make use of them for more than about five seconds, and that's only if you chainfired.

And if you're just chainfiring, mounting that many would be stupid because you would always have 40 of them fully reloaded at any time, which is redundant. You probably only need like 5 or 6 to keep up a continuous chainfire beam.

Well tying agility to engine size is also arbitrary nonsense, so there!

[Amsro]

But the most viable build is the 2 MPL build. IMO of course.

Everyone hates being killed by a 5V.

[Zerberus]

FupDup, on 09 March 2016 - 11:07 AM, said:

...PS: 46 CERLL Dire Wolf? That is literally impossible. You don't have the hardpoints or the critical slots to do that. ..

NOW it´s impossible, that is absolutely correct.

But If we start throwing away the basic buiild rules one by one, and use that precedent to take the other rules (Bt classic or MWO specific) out one by one, then eventually an Omni has no fixed hardpoints and can remove the hardwired dhs, and since we already threw those rules out we may as well **** around with weapon tonnages... and voila, you eventually end up with cERLL@ 1ton, 46 free slots, and 50.5 tons of podspace.

And suddenly mounting 46 cERLL is absolutely possible, and you even have 4.5 tons left over...

Yes, it´s an extremely radical example that heavily borders on hyperbole, but a slippery slope is a slippery slope.. and if you´re not careful, at some point you always end up at the bottom where things previously thought impossible suddenly happen every day. Germans and europeans in general learned this lesson the hard way 80 years ago.

Or to use a popular saying: Give someone a hand and watch them take your whole arm next.

And that´s why PGI should NEVER, EVER **** around with the basic BT Build rules, no matter how much people whine.

Edited by Zerberus, 09 March 2016 - 08:27 PM.

[FupDup]

Zerberus, on 09 March 2016 - 08:18 PM, said:

NOW it´s impossible.

But If we start throwing away the basice buiuild rules one by one, and use that precedent to take the other rules out one by one, then eventually an Omni has no hardpoints and can remove the hardwired dhs, and since we already threw those rules out we may as well **** around with weapon tonnages... and voila, you eventually end up with erll@ 1ton, 46 free slots, and 50.5 tons of podspace.

And suddenly mounting 46cERLL is absolutely possible.and you even have 4.5 tons left over...

Yes, it´s an extremely radical example that heavily borders on hyperbole, but a slippery slope is a slippery slope.. and if you´re not careful, at some point you end up at the bottom

And that´s why PGI should NEVER, EVER **** around with the basic BT Build rules, no matter how much people whine.