36 replies to this topic

[Green Mamba]

Alexander MacTaggart, on 30 October 2014 - 08:58 AM, said:

It's actually the same spped, I just don't have Speed Tweak yet.



Do I mind? A little. But just because other players go in for speed inflation doesn't mean I have to.

But you missed my point. In a system where assaults couldn't increase their engine size, they would still be assaults. Being ~20kph slower isn't exactly a penalty when you have the most armor and guns on the field.

People up-engine because they can, and have come to expect it be done even though it's not necessary.

Although I would also advocate for twist speed being decouple from engine size in this case, have it simply be set by chassis/variant, so nobody feels 'penalized' for not being able to load a bigger engine.



Yeah, everyone know this game never attracts new players.

Not that...Problem is people that have played a very short while haven't seen the Lack of Progress or Mass Difficulties in Balancing that PGI has had in this game ...Its been like Whack A Mole without exaggerating one bit, back and forth repeatedly

[FupDup]

Viktor Drake, on 30 October 2014 - 08:59 AM, said:

It is to retain some semblance of the original flavor of the mech from the standard variants. Many IS medium were designed specifically to keep pace with IS heavies since that was their role so to keep that role, those IS mediums have smaller top engines.

Honestly I like this as it adds diversity to the game.

However the problem with Mediums is that they were never intended to be able to compete with heavy and assault mechs, rather they were cheap alternatives to fielding heavy and assault mechs while adding tactical flexibility through numbers. For example any given battlemech unit could field 3 mediums for the price of one Assault and while none of these mediums was anywhere near as powerful as an assault, 3 of them working together could like kill the assault mech. Also if you need to split your forces between multiple objectives, it is easier to split up 3 mechs than 1 mech hehe.

So from a balancing perspective, at least according to TT and lore, it should take 3 mediums to equal the performance of 1 Assault or 2 heavy mech. Instead, many mediums actually have a good chance of beating a heavy solo and might have a chance at taking out an Assault so mediums have seen a massive power up in MWO.

Also don't get me started on lights. According to lore, they should pretty much crumple and fold against heavies and lights. Honestly they are suppose to be kind of like a Hummer going up against a M1 Abrams when facing an assault yet in game, lets face it, lights are some of the most deadly mechs in game, fighting well above their weight.

Are you volunteering to play those lore-appropriate cannon fodder roles?

[Sadato]

I feel that one of the main issues relating to engine size is that it directly affects the handling capabilities of the 'mech. If the main attributes (Arm movement, Torso Twist Speed, etc) of each chassis were set independent of the engine, then we wouldn't see so many people trying to pack the biggest engine possible just so they can torso twist a little better.

If the engine just affected the top speed (and acceleration?) of the 'mech, each chassis could actually have meaningful handling characteristics.

[Alexander MacTaggart]

FupDup, on 30 October 2014 - 09:04 AM, said:

Are you volunteering to play those lore-appropriate cannon fodder roles?

... Would you like me to post my smurphy builds?

My stable isn't that large (so far) but yeah, I basically do.

[FupDup]

Alexander MacTaggart, on 30 October 2014 - 09:07 AM, said:

... Would you like me to post my smurphy builds?

My stable isn't that large (so far) but yeah, I basically do.

If you want to, I suppose it would be a nice opportunity for me to min-max your robots.

[Alexander MacTaggart]

FupDup, on 30 October 2014 - 09:22 AM, said:

If you want to, I suppose it would be a nice opportunity for me to min-max your robots.

CN9-AH

HBK-4G
HBK-4SP
HBK-4J

AS7-S

They are definitely not meta-compliant mechs, but they perform well enough.

[Mcgral18]

Bartholomew bartholomew, on 30 October 2014 - 08:27 AM, said:

They pull up the battletech TT rules from the TRO's and inflate from there. That is why some are slower than others.

This is a battletech based game after all.

Well, TT was whatever engine as long as it was divisible by the mech's tonnage. Hence why the Gargoyle has a 400XL, instead of the Victor's 320. That's the only jump available for it.

MWO has it on a multiplier, which varies for each chassis, but cannot exceed 8.5 times the mechs tonnage.

Lights are 1.4 stock engine 245*1.4=343, rounded up. 35x8.5 is 297.5, rounded to 300.
Meds are 1.3 stock engine. 200*1.3=260, which for most 50 tonners has been brought up to 275
Heavies are at a 1.2
Assaults are also at 1.2


This system certainly favours IS mechs, since you don't need to go up from a 320 to a 400 in a Victor, or a 300 to 400 in a 100 ton case; you can choose the 350.


It could probably be relaxed; Awesomes are no longer XL friendly, (S)Lunchbacks are still under the 200% heat nerfs...that have yet to be removed.

They have already started removing some of the rules, such as for the light mechs, and the 15 point engine increase for the 50 tonners.

[Bront]

There are, strangely, very few fast IS mediums in lore, and sadly many of them are unseen. Mediums were the workhorse mechs for most houses though because they were cheap, and speed, while useful, wasn't the pure lifesaver it is in MWO. So, you get a lot of slow, heavily armed mediums in lore.

[Artgathan]

Alexander MacTaggart, on 30 October 2014 - 09:39 AM, said:

CN9-AH

HBK-4G
HBK-4SP
HBK-4J

AS7-S

They are definitely not meta-compliant mechs, but they perform well enough.

There's a lot of ammo in those mechs. Have you ever used all of it in a single match?

I've championed a lot of mobility reworks in the past. Basically Heavy / Assault mechs are too mobile (not necessarily in top speed, but in turn/twist speed), which makes it impossible for them to be outmaneuvered.

[Bilbo]

Mercules, on 30 October 2014 - 08:30 AM, said:

Engine caps came about because of the very thing you are advocating. There was a 9 SPL Hunchback that could keep up with most lights and rip the back out of most assaults. Awesomes all ran around at 89kph, and such. PGI decided to cap engine sizes based on the stock size of the engine with a formula. This was a balance issue that helped define roles a bit more. Dragons were just undergunned when all the other heavies could drop in huge engines as well.

It had more to do with large numbers of ludicrous speed lights lagging out the games than either of those. Those had to come down because of the cap on light speeds.

[salkeee]

Alexander MacTaggart, on 30 October 2014 - 08:34 AM, said:

If anything, mechs need to be slowed down across the board.

64-81kph is very respectable speed for a medium, with lights generally starting at 97kph and going up to 129kph (in the Locusts' case).

Heavies tend to sit in the 64kph braket while assault range from 48kph to 64kph.

I literaly dislike IS mediums becouze they are unable to go fast with STD engines and pack a decent punch I really do not like XL engines STD all the way for me becouze when U are a live enemy is still shooting at U and that gives distratcion and chance for ur teammates to pull a win.Any decent players will shoot fast IS in ST.
And IS mediums being the size of assaults doesnt help either,big not much armor and not so fast is not the way to go for my taste.Now Clan mediums are great they have it all that medium needs.

Edited by salkeee, 30 October 2014 - 10:44 AM.

[STEF_]

UrsusMorologus, on 30 October 2014 - 09:02 AM, said:

Compare

Cicadas run at 133 kph, they are able to play a forward aggressive role like no other medium, if a hole opens in the line you go fill it, aggressive posture ftw

Then there is the 89 kph hunchback that has to hide behind hills and buildings in order to contribute, if it gets focused its dead because it cant move and it doesnt have a deep enough HP reservoir to survive

If hunchie could go 100 kph (not even 133) it would be a completely different mech

It wouldn't be the Hunch anymore.

[Alexander MacTaggart]

Artgathan, on 30 October 2014 - 10:33 AM, said:

There's a lot of ammo in those mechs. Have you ever used all of it in a single match?

Not always, but it happens. Especially in that Centurion with no energy backups.

To be honest the 4G and the Atlas rarely last long enough to use ALL their ammo, but I'd rather have too much than run out early. My rule of thumb is to have around 25 volleys for ammo-based weapons. More than that is the weapon is your main/only punch (4G AC20).

Besides, there's not much else I can put on the 4G anyway. AMS is meh (nice to have, but purely a stopgrap measure) and I have all the hardpoints filled (and going larger/pulse with the lasers would make it a non-canon-fodder mech).

[Krivvan]

Stefka Kerensky, on 30 October 2014 - 10:50 AM, said:

It wouldn't be the Hunch anymore.

Then it would stay useless.

[UrsusMorologus]

Stefka Kerensky, on 30 October 2014 - 10:50 AM, said:

It wouldn't be the Hunch anymore.

Hard-points define the role--it would still be a striker, only difference is it could strike more and survive longer

You know, become a decent mech

[STEF_]

UrsusMorologus, on 30 October 2014 - 11:21 AM, said:

Hard-points define the role--it would still be a striker, only difference is it could strike more and survive longer

You know, become a decent mech

But mechs have a definite role in lore.
Huncies are not strikers.

Edit: if I may confort you, Enforce will have a 325 engine cap
Let's hope it will have decent hit boxes; just because hard points are important too

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 30 October 2014 - 12:00 PM.

[Dazzer]

its not that bad , my hunchbacks go 98 with sprrd twick , my cents got 106