281 replies to this topic

[Garth Erlam]

Wait a sec, if the Mechlab is half the battle, and Knowing is half the battle, is there no actual combat battle?

[Omigir]

and your assuming that out of all the variants, that they are going to be all balanced right off the bat as well. Its just as foolish as me hoping they spend some time looking for that balance.

at some point or another, we have to face it there are going to be 14 year olds looking for that uber razors edge advantage and they are going to find it. Customization or not, its going to be there. There is no slowing that down or stopping it.
Just that comfortable little feeling that they are doing it per TOR and not cheesing it up.
i seem to remember hearing these same arguments back on battlenet when i gave that a shot. I dont get it, I dont see why people are so afraid of poorly balanced cheese mech.
weapon imbalinces asside, its going to happen mech lab or not, thats a programing thing and figuring out what works and doesnt work over time.

Garth Erlam, on 16 December 2011 - 02:36 PM, said:

Wait a sec, if the Mechlab is half the battle, and Knowing is half the battle, is there no actual combat battle?

~__~ the cobra has the battle cus they has the mechlab and no knowing, so they has 50% more room for battle.

Edited by Omigir, 16 December 2011 - 02:42 PM.

[TheRulesLawyer]

Garth Erlam, on 16 December 2011 - 02:36 PM, said:

Wait a sec, if the Mechlab is half the battle, and Knowing is half the battle, is there no actual combat battle?

Yes. It now consists of 20 minutes of us running around screaming "Cobraaaaaaaa!!!!!!!" or "Yo Joe!"

[Alizabeth Aijou]

TheRulesLawyer, on 16 December 2011 - 10:18 AM, said:

Do you mean the full TT rules or the TT as seen in MW? If you're talking about the full TT rules, nothing. I support it 100%. It would make some interesting challenges to design around. If you mean the other there are a number of issues. 1) Canon. That level isn't really possible. 2) Game balance. Extensive customization makes any balancing effort more difficult and any errors in balancing will be immediately exploited. Also it gives little incentive to try new chassis and turns mechs into walking weapon cabinets of various sizes, destroying alot of the flavor of many designs.

MW /= TT.
TT customisation of an existic chassis/'Mech is done by StratOps.
Which puts a definite limit on what can be modified given the available means and the time available.
Class A and Class B are the easiest to do, and involve swapping weapons for another one, provided it takes up the same space or less (Class A requires it to be of the same type as well). Both A and B can be done in the field.
A Class C refit requires access to a 'mech cubicle (usually in a dropship or 'mech hangar/garage), and lets you change the armour type, full weapon changes (including a bulkier one), change the amount of armour/distribution, add ammunition bins, or change the amount of heat sinks (but not the type). These refits take twice as long as Class A/B.
Class D refits also require a 'mech cubicle, and lets you install items, rather than simply replace them (as in: more guns than the old design), install electronics, change the heat sink type, the engine rating, and replacing a location with a custom part (FrankenMech). Takes thrice the time of a Class A/B refit.

So lets say we'd limit it to Class C refits, that would prevent most of the boating (except on 'mechs that already have a lot of weapons), while still providing the ability to mount whatever weapon you desire (tonnage/space allowing). It'd also make almost everybody happy.
Downside, while you can change that ALM-7D Fireball to an ALM-8D (Class C), you can't change your JM6-S JagerMech into a JM6-DD (Class F).
It'd also give people a reason to actually use Ferro-Fibrous on 'mechs without Endo-Steel (which would require a Class F refit to get).

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Ubermechs probably wont last long, and unless you some manage to make your ubermech weigh more then 100 or 110 tons, its not going to be any more powerfull than any of its variants.

Most likely, a 110-ton 'mech will be worse than a 100-ton 'mech due to various differences in construction.
For starters, the Internal Structure weighs twice as much. So the IS of an Atlas weighs 10 tons, whilst the IS of a 105-ton 'Mech would weigh 21 tons. Add the fact that to move at the same speed, the 105-ton 'mech needs a bigger/heavier engine (315 rating compared to the Atlas' 300), which is another 7½ ton difference, it also requires a heavier cockpit. So bare-bones (3/5 MP), a 100-tonner would weigh 35 tons, whilst the 105-tonner would weigh 54½ tons. Simply not worth the 19½ ton difference. Slowing the 105-tonner down to 2/3 (210 rating) would still weigh 5 tons more than the Atlas - in short, the same tonnage available to spend on armour, weapons, etc. Still not worth it.

The only real advantage that Super-Heavies have is the increased amount of crits available, and the increased maximum on the armour. (Only 17 points more on the 105 compared to the 100.) Biggest advantage is the increased head armour, which makes it much less likely to be headcapped (which then requires 16 points rather than 12). So the total number of headcappers is reduced to 10 (excluding physical weapons/artillery), of which only 2 exist in 3049 (IS side).

Edited by Alizabeth Aijou, 16 December 2011 - 04:26 PM.

[Tweaks]

TheRulesLawyer, on 16 December 2011 - 09:37 AM, said:

The bare bones customization rules most players see in the TT deal with making a new design from scratch. Its what possible. There are additional rules for modifying an existing design that represent whats really practical.

So customization is cannon, but not in the way that most MW players think it is.

Would you care to tell me where I can find the rules you're referring to in the rulesbooks? (which rulebook is it in, which page?). All I've seen in the rulesbook is about 'Mech construction (as in building from scratch) and not customization of existing designs.

(edit) Forget it, I found it... It's in the Strategic Operations rulesbook, starting at page 188. reading now. So far, I love what I read and it could VERY WELL fit within a F2P model (i.e. different class Refit Kits requiring certain Tech Crew skills...). Lots of potential there... very interesting!

Edited by Tweaks, 16 December 2011 - 05:23 PM.

[Pht]

Tweaks, on 16 December 2011 - 04:36 PM, said:

(edit) Forget it, I found it... It's in the Strategic Operations rulesbook, starting at page 188. reading now. So far, I love what I read and it could VERY WELL fit within a F2P model (i.e. different class Refit Kits requiring certain Tech Crew skills...). Lots of potential there... very interesting!

Around and around she goes ...

The strat ops rules were hashed out I think in week one.

IMO, they're overkill and they have some downsides.

[Gorith]

I Hate to admit it but not having a mechlab or only allowing canon variants is most likely going to be the easiest to balance

[Tweaks]

Pht, on 16 December 2011 - 06:08 PM, said:

Around and around she goes ...

The strat ops rules were hashed out I think in week one.

IMO, they're overkill and they have some downsides.

The downsides you refer to is exactly what would make them balanced if implemented right in MWO.

Refit Kits and Customization rules can be ported to a video game easily and without that much issues with balancing and tweaking. They were written for that purpose. They are simple and easy to follow.

The problem is actually the rules about "FrankenMechs" which are overly complicated and basically allowing any kind of modifications that don't make any sense at all. THAT I don't want to see in MWO. However, Refit Kits that are created by PGI and only apply to specific 'Mechs (i.e. to go from one variant to another, or to upgrade armor and things like that), I would love to see in MWO!

[Black Sunder]

TheRulesLawyer, on 16 December 2011 - 03:24 PM, said:

Yes. It now consists of 20 minutes of us running around screaming "Cobraaaaaaaa!!!!!!!" or "Yo Joe!"

You make it sound like its a bad thing...

[pcunite]

Gorith, on 16 December 2011 - 06:14 PM, said:

I Hate to admit it but not having a mechlab or only allowing canon variants is most likely going to be the easiest to balance

I'm kinda in favor of this too ... if we're shooting for realism here ...

[Tweaks]

pcunite, on 16 December 2011 - 06:45 PM, said:

I'm kinda in favor of this too ... if we're shooting for realism here ...

No we're not... PGI is shooting for what will work well in a F2P model, and they have their own take on what that is. Realism is a very subjective term, and doesn't apply too well to a science-fiction game to begin with!

[Pht]

Tweaks, on 16 December 2011 - 06:31 PM, said:

The downsides you refer to is exactly what would make them balanced if implemented right in MWO.

Um, did you go dig that thread up and see what I was referring to?

...

Or are you just assuming you know what I meant?

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Refit Kits and Customization rules can be ported to a video game easily and without that much issues with balancing and tweaking. They were written for that purpose. They are simple and easy to follow.

The problems aren't in whether the devs can implement them - the problem is that they, at their top level - anything done in a factory - render 'mechs into MW3 style walking gun-bags (beyond visuals, completely un-unique), at the level where they allow you to switch weapons types they render all mechs into omnimechs, and they create an un-equal playing field of opportunity; which could range from a darned annoyance to a nearly game-killing problem if the long time/elite players and the newbies have to compete for resources.


The idea of refit kits are cool, but it's not necessary for them to use the strat-ops rules for customization to implement that.

[Phades]

Garth Erlam, on 16 December 2011 - 02:36 PM, said:

Wait a sec, if the Mechlab is half the battle, and Knowing is half the battle, is there no actual combat battle?

The mechlab part is knowing in a sense. Knowing yourself and knowing what is possible to be facing against and creating a strategy of how to deal with it in your own unique way (murdered a Sun Tsu-ism, sue me). I see it as more in 3rds due to the smaller scale battles are in terms of units employed. 1/3rd prep, 1/3rd coordination and adjusting tactics, 1/3rd micro management.

Although chess board setups you still have the knowing part, but you are forced to play in certain ways in order to maximize the potential of the units and the matches unfold, like clockwork, in very predictable manners. Yes, the parallel can be made with chess, but again if you are only playing chess with 4-12 pieces, it really isn't much of a chess match anymore.

[Kudzu]

Gorith, on 16 December 2011 - 06:14 PM, said:

I Hate to admit it but not having a mechlab or only allowing canon variants is most likely going to be the easiest to balance

Easiest by far.

Each variant could be weighted (via a PGI-made BV system or whatever they end up using) for matchmaking purposes and adjusting them individually means that you don't have people breaking the system by finding the sweet spot of over-powered/ under-weighted. They don't even have to be pure canon designs, they could include a few home-made variants with built in strengths and weaknesses to cover more styles.

It also makes it easier for each variant to be modeled for WYSIWYG (no more LRM's coming out of AC/20 bores!)

[Phades]

Kudzu, on 16 December 2011 - 09:23 PM, said:

It also makes it easier for each variant to be modeled for WYSIWYG (no more LRM's coming out of AC/20 bores!)

Visual identification is a very important issue if customization is allowed in game. When fighting double blind, in both positioning and assets, things like recon become far more valuable. If you already know the layout and the opposition, the tactics play themselves out in a fairly routine manner.

[Tweaks]

Pht, on 16 December 2011 - 07:30 PM, said:

Um, did you go dig that thread up and see what I was referring to?

...

Or are you just assuming you know what I meant?

Uh? You answered my post, what other post should have I read? I thought you spoke generally about the Strat Ops customization rules.

Pht, on 16 December 2011 - 07:30 PM, said:

The problems aren't in whether the devs can implement them - the problem is that they, at their top level - anything done in a factory - render 'mechs into MW3 style walking gun-bags (beyond visuals, completely un-unique), at the level where they allow you to switch weapons types they render all mechs into omnimechs, and they create an un-equal playing field of opportunity; which could range from a darned annoyance to a nearly game-killing problem if the long time/elite players and the newbies have to compete for resources.


The idea of refit kits are cool, but it's not necessary for them to use the strat-ops rules for customization to implement that.

Don't mix the Refit Kits and Customization rules with the "FrankenMech" rules. The Refit Kit and Customization can both be controlled tightly by PGI, where they only sell the kits they see fit. Some customizations, according to the rulebook, take factory class facilities to be done, and take weeks to complete. Everything would also be subject to availability. They can funnel and filter any over-powered customizations that way.

For example, you could purchase a customization plan for changing a built-in SRM rack into a LRM rack, which would only work for a medium class 'Mech, and would require let's say, 2 hours (or more) of real time to install, and a full blown factory to do it. It would also void your 'Mech's warranty, and would risk making your 'Mech more fragile in that area (i.e. bad tech crew skill) since the modification is not certified by the manufacturer. Finding a factory could be hard enough (would only be on main worlds or Merc bases on occupied planets perhaps?), and the install time alone means your 'Mech will be unusable for that much time.

I think the FrankenMech rules is what you're referring to regarding "MW3 style walking gun-bags", isn't it?

Edited by Tweaks, 16 December 2011 - 09:43 PM.

[Gorith]

Honestly ALL the mechlabs have turned it into frankenmech gameplay... 4 tried to keep it down but failed miserably (in several areas)

[Red Beard]

Gorith, on 16 December 2011 - 10:59 PM, said:

Honestly ALL the mechlabs have turned it into frankenmech gameplay... 4 tried to keep it down but failed miserably (in several areas)

Word.

[Alizabeth Aijou]

Pht, on 16 December 2011 - 07:30 PM, said:

at the level where they allow you to switch weapons types they render all mechs into omnimechs, and they create an un-equal playing field of opportunity; which could range from a darned annoyance to a nearly game-killing problem if the long time/elite players and the newbies have to compete for resources.

Not if a time constraint of some sort is implemented.
Say that Class A/B takes the 'mech out for one battle/hour, a Class C for two battles/hours, and an OmniMech for almost no time, and allowing omnimechs to use some of the Class D refits.

Quote

For example, you could purchase a customization plan for changing a built-in SRM rack into a LRM rack, which would only work for a medium class 'Mech, and would require let's say, 2 hours (or more) of real time to install, and a full blown factory to do it. It would also void your 'Mech's warranty, and would risk making your 'Mech more fragile in that area (i.e. bad tech crew skill) since the modification is not certified by the manufacturer. Finding a factory could be hard enough (would only be on main worlds or Merc bases on occupied planets perhaps?), and the install time alone means your 'Mech will be unusable for that much time.

Canon/StratOps says otherwise.

Quote

I think the FrankenMech rules is what you're referring to regarding "MW3 style walking gun-bags", isn't it?

StratOps as well, some canon examples include the Prometheus, the Wolfman and the Temax Cat Ninjabolt.
Or in other words, 'mechs made by literally welding together parts from different 'mechs.

Edited by Alizabeth Aijou, 17 December 2011 - 02:39 AM.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

A problem is that not all canon mechs and weapons are optimised for mech on mech combat hence peoples desire to "optimise". My preference is for this to be done by PGI even if it means introducing non canon variants This game needs to be capable of being played by noobs and vets from day 1 with a playingfield defined by skill and abilities. Mech combat is different enough from all other games out there that complete newcomers will have a fairly steep learning curve. The game needs to provide enough "fun factor" that they will stay long enough while being killed to learn how to stay alive. I think that unregulated customisation in seconds a la MW3/4 just won't work.