281 replies to this topic

[Nik Van Rhijn]

The other way to do it is cost and time. repairs are instant to avoid problems. Low level customisation (other than variant kits if available) could be say swapping out MG's & ammo or small lasers etc for more AC ammo & CASE or a couple of medium lasers. This could be standard BT rates & Time from the rulebook. Swapping an AC20 for ML's or PPC and Double heatsinks could be much more expensive. Changing engine, structure or to FF armour would cost much more and take a long time (mech has to be shipped to & from a factory). In this way PGI could allow minor changes which are not balance threatening while making it a very expensive & lengthy process to make a custom build mech. This would make customs fairly uncommon and less likely to be a factor in unbalancing the game. This would be consistant with canon and should not "break" the game.

[TheRulesLawyer]

I like the idea of losing the mech XP as a way to balance the mech lab. You want to make changes? Great. You just lost a good chunk of XP on that mech. It'd allow people to settle on one config they like and stick with it without an issues, but if you chase the weekly patches trying to keep up with the most OP weapons you'll be piloting a mech with no xp. I'd also stick with refit level customization, not "new mech" customization.

They already have the refit levels in the book. You could use those as a guide to how much xp you'd lose for different changes.

[MechWarrior4Lover]

Completely agree. The 'Mechlab is one of my favorite parts and some good balancing should keep the game in check.

[vampire seraphin]

Remember that half the fun of mechwarrior was playing in the mech lab. It's one of the "sacred cow" design aspects that has kept the game alive for 15 years. Take that away or make it to complicated/hard and all you have is another shooter.

It should be simple and accessible. Making it "hardcore" or "PnP" standard is going to achieve nothing but driving away the casual crowd and placing annoying limits on the die hards.

[Red Beard]

The mechlab is a complete waste of time. IMO.

[Brakkyn]

The developers have said this:

Q. Will I be able to fully customize my Mechs' load out, decals, paint job, and equipment?
A. You will be able to customize your load out, decals, paint job and equipment. But when it comes to armor, weapons and accessories please refer to the previous question and answer.

Although there is no "previous question and answer" that gives any further explanation, this certainly does not tell me that there will be "full customization". The last sentence is the most telling, but unfortunately it falls flat without a "previous question and answer" to refer to.

If you look at the image released of the cockpit view of the Hunchback, it is the HBK-4G model. It has a small laser, two medium lasers, and the AC20. This leaves me to believe that model may be included in the game. It does not tell me that the pilot could customize it. All it tells me is that a legitimate, canon variant seems to be an option in game--and even that may be an erroneous statement. But based on what little information we ALL have to go on, what this forum post equates to is a massive wishlist, with no one in the right and no one in the wrong, since it is all opinion and little to no fact.

In addition, I do not think that game balance will be achieved simply because everyone will have access to all the same stuff. If they did, combat would boring--on the other hand, it might lend to more skill being involved in combat drops if everyone has equal equipment. But this is warfare--simulated or not, you never want to fight fair.

As for sticking to the table top rules as much as possible--I'm for it...to a degree. As stated many times and ignored just as much, table top rules DO NOT translate into games such as MechWarrior 100%. The MechLab for MechWarrior Online is a complete unknown--it may exist, it may not, and if it does, we have no idea how far it will let us go.

[Red Beard]

Well stated, on all accounts, Brakkyn.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

From the Game section "Players will be able to customize their BattleMechs with weapon and armor upgrades as well as customize their cosmetic appearance in the MechLab." Nothing on sensors, heatsinks, extra ammo, case etc. Doesn't mean it won't be in , just no details (as ever ). Only thing we do know is we will have a "Mechlab" of some sort.

[MaddMaxx]

Maybe this was the question in question?

Quote

"
In rebooting the MechWarrior® game what was the game designers’ rationale for the year 3049 being chosen?


[DAVID] snip

[PAUL] We want the player base to be able to experience Inner Sphere tech combat and really to get used to how ‘Mech technology works. We want players to really get into this game and create builds that they can share with friends and allow the community to share strategies in combat and creating/customizing BattleMechs.

or Niks entry

Edited by MaddMaxx, 23 December 2011 - 08:22 AM.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Thetwo seem to conflict don't they? You beat me to it,I remembered after I posted that it had come up elsewhere.

[MaddMaxx]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 23 December 2011 - 08:31 AM, said:

Thetwo seem to conflict don't they? You beat me to it,I remembered after I posted that it had come up elsewhere.

The moved up Timeline does increase the Tech available to use in Customization though right? So by moving the Timeline the Dev have seen some benefit in the Customization scheme they plan to implement. Whatever the hell that is...

[Omigir]

well well, now that im all caught up, seems like nothing new has really been opted up.

*le shrug*

Still, it looks like the best way to go about it is to provide A Mech chassis and have each variant be its 'own' chassis. So if you buy a variant, it cant be swapped to another oen without a variant kit and some heavy C-bills and time.

Each variant has a set number of hard points which can only fit certian kinds of weapons as well as sizes.

swapping out weapons/armor/electronics Etc should cost a large amounts of C-bills, that said, you are stuck in a basic chassis variant until you make enough money to maybe swap out some MGs for a set of S lasers, or perhaps less MG ammo for an extra sliver or armor or two. In this way you can make slow progress to adjust your mech to you.

I think we all agree that no one is going to have infant number of all the weapons in reserve so they can put whatever they want on. They will have to purchase (maybe even salvage) every weapon, component, slab of armor they want to fit to their mech. And if they can afford 4 PPC's to slap onto thier mech and they can afford to strip down their mech to do a 'gunbag' set up, they still have to deal with heat, power draws, fending off piranha like light mechs or wolf packs of mediums as well as deal with that environment variable.

These are all just repeats of previously stated things ofcours but I had to pull and mash them together but I think the above frames up 'balances' pretty well. These ubermechs that every one is afraid of wont be easy or make sens.

also, mechwarrior already had 'gunbag' variants in it inherently. What is the dif between an atlas with 6 lbx ac 10's and a annihilator? Really how it looks. Annihilators looking retarded and Atlases looking like skull faced bad a-mo foes.

So lets face it, no mater what you do, you will always have your boats and gunbags. You will always have your min/maxers (even if there are variant only mechs, every one is going to gravitate to 1 or two mechs with the most min/maxed standard chassis anyway. So your fears of no variety exist in both mechlab/nonmechlab worlds)

Its an online game, you cannot escape the inevitable mechanics of people using the cheapest method possible. and your precious variant only option is just as flawed as a pricy and restricted mech lab.

and last but not least, everything stated save for the quotes from the Q/A from the devs is just speculation and opinion, something we can argue till the cows come home and even after the game came out there probably will be arguments about what 'should' have been done. or what people 'will do'. People are going to do everything possible. End of story. So all we are going to see are Awesome and Atlases. Custom or stock.

Edited by Omigir, 23 December 2011 - 09:01 AM.

[Pht]

Tweaks, on 16 December 2011 - 09:36 PM, said:

Don't mix the Refit Kits and Customization rules with the "FrankenMech" rules.

I've not. I'm with you: the frankenmechs should be left out. They're mind-bending monstrosities even in the TT game. I can't imagine the madness that would be induced by those ... freaks ...

ITS ALIVE! IT'S ALIVE!

Quote

The Refit Kit and Customization can both be controlled tightly by PGI, where they only sell the kits they see fit. Some customizations, according to the rulebook, take factory class facilities to be done, and take weeks to complete. Everything would also be subject to availability. They can funnel and filter any over-powered customizations that way.

This is a command and control economy - and C&CE's don't work. They're impossible; no human can control an economy and get the results he wants based off of humanly available information. Unintended results will always crop up and bite your family jewels off - you just don't get what you want.

Besides which, even if (in utopia land) it were possible, they would still be creating a top group of players who could have their 'mechs setup mw3 style, while everyone else is relegated to .... being pounded by said group.


For that matter, at the refit level that lets you swap in different weapon types, all 'mechs become omnimechs as far as concerns mounting weapons.

Quote

I think the FrankenMech rules is what you're referring to regarding "MW3 style walking gun-bags", isn't it?

No. Factory refit level is what amounts to MW3 walking gun-bags; you can change anything in a factory.

Gorith, on 16 December 2011 - 10:59 PM, said:

Honestly ALL the mechlabs have turned it into frankenmech gameplay... 4 tried to keep it down but failed miserably (in several areas)

Um, frankenmechs are not what I suspect you think they are.

They are quite literally 'mechs cobbled together from whatever pieces of 'mechs you have lying around... just like Frankenstein's monster.

Edited by Pht, 23 December 2011 - 06:46 PM.

[Dlardrageth]

Pht, on 23 December 2011 - 06:45 PM, said:

[...]
For that matter, at the refit level that lets you swap in different weapon types, all 'mechs become omnimechs as far as concerns mounting weapons.
[...]

Yep, and that is one major point of content, methinks. Why even bother with future expansions and new content, aka introducing OmniMechs gradually, if the instant gratification crowd gets it all now and here at start? If in all but name, all Mechs will be OmniMechs from the get-go, why bother with OmniMechs at all in the future?

Heck, why bother with any expansions/tech progress/ClanTech in future expansions? Just let everybody design and customize their Mechs all they want and perhaps even choose their weapon stats at will? I bet that bides very well for a commercial success, if you dumb down the game as much... sounds interesting and challenging enough to spend maybe a whole month on it.

[deamon001]

I too liked the setup of the mw2 mech lab better than mw4 also being able to repair your mech in sections if I decide to do so
and see visual damage, also as has been said the ability to see the guns, lasers or missiles I place in a certain hard point.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

I don't think that you will ever get the two groups to agree. On on side you have the "I want to be able to change anything want & it has to be now as it's a game and people won't wait for more than 5 seconds" who insist that this game will be a total failure if you have any comlexity or rules or limits on what you can do. On the other hand you have the "there should be rules and constraints and changes should take time group" who usually think that haveing some depth and complexity in a game will not put too many people off and may well keep more people playing (and spending) long term. Diargradeth had it right when he said that what is the point in PGI producing more than 1 chassis at each weight (and probably not even that) when you can just customise them quickly and easily to do what you want? To be honest from a commercial point alone I can't see PGI allowing a MW2/4 type mechlab. If refits are limited purely by cost then the"top" players, prepared to put in the hours (or those able to buy C-bills) will be able to produce "optimised" mechs. Yes better players will do better, but again it doesn't make sense to produce a game which benefits the top 5%, just as i don't think it makes sense to produce a game which is "dumbed down" to the LCD. The BT universe is a complicated place and the game should reflect that to a degree, with people able to accept or ignore as much of the "backstory" as they wish. I'm sure that PGI have their own vision of what the Mechlab will be.
As for game balance -until we know more we have to accept that it will be fairly well balanced to start and people will find ways to break it from day 1. Which is not a problem if only a few work it out before it get's patched out. I get the feeling that even when the game launches it will be very much a "work in progress" with continual improvements and additions. To my mind this will help in keeping people interested and playing. If you invest time and effort in progressing your "character" you want to keep playing - as long as it's fun.

[SMDMadCow]

I want the MW2 mechlab, after I attain the rank of Captain.

[Gorith]

The point and problem people have with customization is that if it's not regulated and kept under control somehow you just end up with gauss/ppc/lrm snipers with very light armor but capable of killing or crippling mechs of equal weight class in 1 volley or AC boats for urban/woodland/jungle duty. You lose any balance in weapon loadouts.

If I can set my assault up to alpha anything but another assault or maybe a heavily armored heavy. I have just made most heavies and mediums useless. I have also made heavily armored assaults that sacrifice firepower for armor less valuable as while I may not alpha them my buddy and me can prolly cripple them in 1 or 2 volleys before they can do much damage to either of us. Now game play devolves into what sides leader can call primaries better.

[pickledtezcat]

I just read the whole thread.

It sounds from the developer's Q and A sessions as if customization will be in. I'd like to see a hardpoint option as some people have said rather than a mechwarrior 2 style free-for-all.
I played mechwarrior 2 mercs back in the day, and I really enjoyed playing about in the mech lab. But I still ended up building the "Flying Atlas." (max armour, more than 20 MGs and jump jets, so it could fly at over 200KPH using the directional jumpjets of MW2).

Hands up who wants to play Flying Atlas vs Flying Atlas online?
No one, oh I thought so.
MW3 was a better, because the weapons were slightly better balanced and you had to pick up replacement weapons and ammo from salvage, they couldn't just be bought in the shop. But there were still plenty of ways to the system, and break points in the construction code (and some mechs with no torso twist) still made you always pilot only a couple of mechs.

What I'm really concerned about though designs which completely change the role, and character of a mech.
Check out this tank: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Char_B1

It has a lot of character, and in many ways it was superior to the German tanks it faced, but it had flaws. The small turret, and the main gun being in the hull meant that it could be flanked easily, the air vent in the left side of the B1 bis variant was vulnerable to close ranged shots from even weak anti tank weapons. It was slow.

The TRO designs are like this, each has a weak area, each has a tactical counter and a specific battlefield role.
Things like:
The Griffin has all it's heavy weapons on it's right side. (support mech)
The Urban mech is famously slow. (Urban Combat)
The Atlas is tough, but lacks speed and is built for close combat. (close assault trooper)
The Dragon has no hard hitting weapons, but has good speed. (cavalry mech)

These problems are not that bad when the mechs are used in the correct role. I don't mind customization, but I really don't want to see the following:
A griffin with 8 medium lasers spread all over it's limbs.
A 140KPH running Urban mech.
A flying Atlas.
A 30KPH dragon armed for close combat.

What would be the point of scouting then?
"there's an Atlas heading your way!" "Oh wait, he's flying!"

The Char B1 had variants with a bigger main gun in the turret, a slightly faster engine, one armed with a flame thrower, and late models upgraded the radio* from a morse code style wireless to a speech model. These changed the role of the tank in small ways, but they didn't completely change it's character. It was still an infantry support tank.

I think the mechlab should be in, but should allow customization, not re-design.

(*I think the devs are going to focus a lot on this sort of customization)

[Excalibaard]

Dlardrageth, on 23 December 2011 - 08:57 PM, said:

Yep, and that is one major point of content, methinks. Why even bother with future expansions and new content, aka introducing OmniMechs gradually, if the instant gratification crowd gets it all now and here at start? If in all but name, all Mechs will be OmniMechs from the get-go, why bother with OmniMechs at all in the future?

Pht, on 23 December 2011 - 06:45 PM, said:

For that matter, at the refit level that lets you swap in different weapon types, all 'mechs become omnimechs as far as concerns mounting weapons.

I suggested something before that may be a solution

pickledtezcat, on 25 December 2011 - 01:43 AM, said:

I just read the whole thread.

It sounds from the developer's Q and A sessions as if customization will be in. I'd like to see a hardpoint option as some people have said rather than a mechwarrior 2 style free-for-all.

More text.

I agree with you all, What do you think about the hardpoints combined with variants idea i posted on page 12? I think it would not be all omnimechs as such, as you'll still have specific hardpoints on a mech that can't simply be filled with an other type of weapon, but the hardpoints would be able to change in other specific configurations according to which variant you're running with.