66 replies to this topic

[Brody319]

Clan mechs have buggy hitboxes anyway. I've had my front CT get hit from behind with lasers and ballistics, makes sense right? getting punched in the back of the face.

Plus clearly the destroyed components are not completely removed, basically just junk in the way. Twisting is an important skill and one that seperates noobs from experienced players. I really don't see the problem, if your Stalker and Atlas can torso twist to survive, why cant a T-wolf or a Adder?


Also if we are talking about broken damage systems, look at the ******* Spider. I've seen them take more hits than a D-whale and keep going!

[oneproduct]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 02 November 2014 - 03:36 PM, said:

Dammit. No. It wouldn't make the clan mechs better. But it wouldn't change the status quo. Clan mechs would still be X amount better. X never changed.

So what's the advantage to a standard engine then? Why not just take an XL and pack more guns. Since the damage transfer mechanic means you just doubled the size of the CT on a ST blowout.

If clan mechs are 50% more effective than IS mechs, and you introduce a blanket nerf to ALL mechs including standard engine IS mechs. Guess what, clan mechs are still 50% more effective.

What about that is unclear?

Is anyone else having difficulty understanding this?

I don't understand how you don't understand...

100% of clan mechs get this free damage shield because they have XL engines that don't die or standard engines.

Only a portion of inner sphere mechs make use of damage shields, because inner sphere mechs with XL engines die when the side torso is destroyed, and so they don't get a damage shield.

Therefore this nerfs all clan mechs but only some inner sphere mechs, therefore it makes clan mechs slightly weaker on average.

The advantage of a standard engine didn't change. You still get to zombie when both your side torsos are destroyed. The intent of a standard engine was never specifically to have a 50% side torso shield. Where does it say that?

Edited by oneproduct, 02 November 2014 - 03:40 PM.

[oneproduct]

Take the example of a stormcrow and a shadowhawk, both weighting 55 tons and carrying the same amount of armor. Most shadowhawks use an XL engine.

If a worst case scenario if you have to kill a stormcrow using entirely shots through a side torso you have to deal:

• 78 (52+26) to the side torso
  
• then the center torso's 108 total (72+36) would instead need 216 damage to destroy through the side torso

The shadowhawk simply dies when its side torso dies and doesn't get a similar damage shield that can absorb up to an additional 108 damage. In addition to clan XL engines not killing the mech on destruction, this free damage shield contributes greatly to the survival of XL engine equipped clan mechs whereas it only contributes in part to the survival of IS mechs, and IS mechs who do have a damage shield like this lost a lot of weapon tonnage to do so.

Edited by oneproduct, 02 November 2014 - 03:48 PM.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

oneproduct, on 02 November 2014 - 03:44 PM, said:

Take the example of a stormcrow and a shadowhawk, both weighting 55 tons and carrying the same amount of armor. Most shadowhawks use an XL engine.

If you have to kill a stormcrow through a side engine (because he's torso twisting) you have to deal
52 side torso armor
26 side torso internals
and then the center torso's 108 total (72+36) would instead need 216 damage to destroy.

The shadowhawk simply dies when its side torso dies and doesn't get a similar damage shield that can absorb up to an addition 108 damage.

And if I take a standard engine Shawk I'm just as easy to kill while being slower and less armed. Your example just showed the flaw in your case.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Brody319, on 02 November 2014 - 03:37 PM, said:

Clan mechs have buggy hitboxes anyway. I've had my front CT get hit from behind with lasers and ballistics, makes sense right? getting punched in the back of the face.

Plus clearly the destroyed components are not completely removed, basically just junk in the way. Twisting is an important skill and one that seperates noobs from experienced players. I really don't see the problem, if your Stalker and Atlas can torso twist to survive, why cant a T-wolf or a Adder?


Also if we are talking about broken damage systems, look at the ******* Spider. I've seen them take more hits than a D-whale and keep going!

Twolf and Adder can, But Clans seem to have very long torsos.....I mean, you literally cant fire at a DWF, TWF or WHK and not hit some kind of torso, I suppose thats why mine always go out....CT is fine, which is ok by me, but my ST always are going out almost instantly upon taking fire......almost wish I could transfer some of that 108 armor ot my ST......57/15 isnt enough, but I dont really wanna lose to much more on my back....I kinda use that rear armor to save whats left of my usually stripped front ST....

[Kristen Redmond]

oneproduct, on 02 November 2014 - 02:41 PM, said:

The shield is hardly very limited. A smart enemy is going to torso twist and actively try to hide his center from you so "choosing" to hit him in the center torso is not always an option, particularly if he is very far away which limits your firing angles.

Sorry but yes it is. "Try to hide" is the key thing here. There are VERY few mechs that can fully hide a ct from you by twisting. and a twisted mech cannot shoot you. Patience, skill, and timing will mean all he has achieved is not to shoot you.

You can tag him with a single weapon, and nail him in his face with the rest if you struggle to slice a shot.

[Spheroid]

No. The code is ready and working for the eventual Inner Sphere light engine. I have no desire to disable something I will have great utility for in the future.

The devs want longer TTK. Increasing torso damage does not accomplish that goal.

Edited by Spheroid, 02 November 2014 - 03:52 PM.

[warner2]

Transfer damage at 50% from side torso to side torso when an engine is occupying the torsos.

[oneproduct]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 02 November 2014 - 03:46 PM, said:

And if I take a standard engine Shawk I'm just as easy to kill while being slower and less armed. Your example just showed the flaw in your case.

Yes and no. You're not considering everything.

1. Current situation with 50% damage shield.

• Stormcrow takes 82 + 216 = 298 damage to kill through a side torso.
  
• Standard Shadowhawk takes 298 damage to kill through a side torso. In this case yes, nothing has changed but he had to pay the weight of a standard engine to get the same 50% damage shield that the Stormcrow got for free.
  
• XL Shadowhawk takes 82 damage to kill through a side torso.

2. In a world without the 50% damage shield.

• Stormcrow takes 82 + 108 = 190 damage to kill through a side torso.
  
• Standard Shadowhawk takes 190 damage to kill through a side torso. Again we're the same but I had to pay for the weight of a standard.
  
• XL Shadowhawk takes 82 damage to kill through a side torso. This is where things are different. This 82 is much closer to the Stormcrow's 190 in this case than it is to 298 in the previous case.

​190 vs 298! That's a huge difference! With a 50% damage shield the Stormcrow can take 3.63x as much damage as an XL Shadowhawk to its side torso as opposed to 2.31x without the damage shield.


TTK went down in the second situation, but it can be raised through another way that's more fair. As it is right now, clan XL engines cause the effective health of clan mechs to increase for free whereas IS mechs have to pay for the same shield. I.e. TTK on clan mechs is generally higher than on IS mechs. It's better to fix it for both of them.

Edited by oneproduct, 02 November 2014 - 04:22 PM.

[Johnny Z]

Dont nerf Clan XL's, allow Inner Sphere XL's to have a module allowing the same side torso loss. Fair is fair right?

This module would still take up a valuable mech module slot and the clans would still have weapons with longer range, weigh less, do more damage and take up less space.... Their equipment, double heat sinks would still only take 2 slots instead of the is 3 etc...

Edited by Johnny Z, 02 November 2014 - 04:53 PM.

[oneproduct]

Perhaps, but I guarantee you that if you made a module that does that every IS mech would take an XL engine and that module due to how good it is. That would be problematic because it would remove choice. Also if you added that then many IS mechs would suddenly become a lot scarier relative to clan mechs, but maybe that's a good thing.

Edited by oneproduct, 02 November 2014 - 04:58 PM.

[Johnny Z]

oneproduct, on 02 November 2014 - 04:56 PM, said:

Perhaps, but I guarantee you that if you made a module that does that every IS mech would take an XL engine and that module due to how good it is. That would be problematic because it would remove choice. Also if you added that then many IS mechs would suddenly become a lot scarier relative to clan mechs, but maybe that's a good thing.

Even with this module the IS mechs still would not equal Clan mechs because of space problems, all the clan equipment takes up less space and weaighs less, so they can still load more than an IS with XL. Not to mention this module would take up an important mech module slot that would otherwise be used for radar deprevation etc.

[Mcgral18]

Johnny Z, on 02 November 2014 - 05:02 PM, said:

Even with this module the IS mechs still would not equal Clan mechs because of space problems, all the clan equipment takes up less space and weaighs less, so they can still load more than an IS with XL. Not to mention this module would take up an important mech module slot that would otherwise be used for radar deprevation etc.

Just get the Light Fusion Engine.

75% weight, isAC20 capable. Clam XL , with a little less weight.

[Damocles]

dont support decreased TTK

[Johnny Z]

Mcgral18, on 02 November 2014 - 05:04 PM, said:

Just get the Light Fusion Engine.

75% weight, isAC20 capable. Clam XL , with a little less weight.

I am not sure if this is a good idea or not. But if they did add a module allowing IS XL side torso loss the clans would still have their PTW easy mode, it just wouldnt be as easy. A bit harsh, however accurate, but the clan trolls saying they have been nerfed below IS and/or that IS and Clans are balanced demanded it.

Edited by Johnny Z, 02 November 2014 - 05:07 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Damocles, on 02 November 2014 - 05:05 PM, said:

dont support decreased TTK

Most definitely not lol. We need a slower paced, more tactical game and less of a fast paced, mostly twitchy type shooter that MWO is....

[Mercules]

oneproduct, on 02 November 2014 - 03:39 PM, said:

100% of clan mechs get this free damage shield because they have XL engines that don't die or standard engines.

Apparently

Free = huge drawbacks in customization like changing engine size.

[Walluh]

The second clan XLs get nerfed is the second every clan mech bar a Dire Whale becomes generally useless compared to an optimized IS mech.

[Johnny Z]

Walluh, on 02 November 2014 - 06:36 PM, said:

The second clan XLs get nerfed is the second every clan mech bar a Dire Whale becomes generally useless compared to an optimized IS mech.

I think the clan easy mode has clouded your judgement on balance, and worse, compromised your piloting abilities. For a reality check and a lesson in piloting step into a commando or wolverine or a dragon or any number of IS mechs minus the 3 or 4 like the jenner and firestarter that themslves are a tad op.

Let me know how it goes, and be honest.

Edited by Johnny Z, 02 November 2014 - 06:45 PM.

[Walluh]

Commandos and wolverines are BAD IS mechs. I play plenty of them. More often than my clan mechs, lately.

I think being punched by Timberwolves and Dires have made you a wee bit biased on the topic.

And if you're going to just offer up the worst IS mechs, pilot a Summoner, or an Adder....or, well, any Clan mech that isn't in the Stormcrow/Timberwolf/Dire Wolf trifecta. :/

Edited by Walluh, 02 November 2014 - 06:48 PM.