72 replies to this topic

[WarHippy]

Yoseful Mallad, on 03 November 2014 - 04:44 PM, said:

every game I drop into, team or solo has at least 6 if not more mechs on each team tossing LRMs. Is that a bad thing? No, I don't think so. But what I do think is broken is anyone being able to relay target info back to everyone else on the team. All mechs should not have this built in ability. And this ability for any mech to target for the team, does really give LRM players to much freedom to spam LRMs. When I'm playing in my LRM mechs and can sit and kill 4 or 5 mechs without every having seen them or not even knowing who on my team is targeting for me, does feel cheap and to easy.

The reason you are seeing so many LRMs right now is because of the new reward system and how easy it is to farm c-bills with Tag and LRMs. It isn't because of ease of use, or because of target sharing.

[Abivard]

Yoseful Mallad, on 03 November 2014 - 04:44 PM, said:

every game I drop into, team or solo has at least 6 if not more mechs on each team tossing LRMs. Is that a bad thing? No, I don't think so. But what I do think is broken is anyone being able to relay target info back to everyone else on the team. All mechs should not have this built in ability. And this ability for any mech to target for the team, does really give LRM players to much freedom to spam LRMs. When I'm playing in my LRM mechs and can sit and kill 4 or 5 mechs without every having seen them or not even knowing who on my team is targeting for me, does feel cheap and to easy.

Wow, pull the other one while you are at it, at least 6 mechs? more like 2 mechs with a total of 50 lrms between them and all them turrets makes it seem more.
In pugs I see more LRM usage, as skill increases LRM's disappear because they become less and less effective, In group play the team that has the most LRM's is usually the team that LOSES!

All of the above strongly indicates USER ERROR is what makes LRM's effective, the answer to this is for the USER to correct their errors, or in other words L2P.

[elitewolverine]

First is the way they damage a mech, they will always target a CT. Or so it seems. There have been plenty of matches, where a light has 'spotted' my awesome, using ECM (which there is no counter for right now, if you don't have an ecm with you). And have been stripped of all CT and LT or RT armor in 15seconds without seeing a thing from multiple lrm boats.

Yes I know the designers hate hearing, and people on here, about the table top. BUT face it, this game is a direct descendent to that game. I would garner most people here have played TT, have played preMW4.

Rules: Spotting, a spotting mech not only made it harder to HIT, but also could only so for one person without giving more penalties to the next player. How to do this in game? Make either spotting a prematch selection, that dumb ready screen is a waste of code for it to do NOTHING. Meaning that during the pregame, the selection would have 'tiers'. Meaning a spotter is selected and added to the list. That mech can nowonly spot for 2 people.

First person takes penalty in lock, second person takes penalty in both lock and what hits. The lock timer would be the same for each mech, just the second on takes a hit penalty.

How to go about tiering? Well if the first two on the list is not targeting others get to target. It should be rather easy code to create a if then else, with possibly a for loop, for this type of targeting.

This right here would fix nearly all issues. Also freaking make 1 missle do 1 damage.

Take awaythe damn smoke screen a single missle does, and perhaps, perhaps the mech getting hit can look, find, and return fire, before theypop tart behind something. Onlyto peak out and fire again.

They are overpowered because of poor hit location (imo that is), and able to target freely or all.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Quote

How To Fix Lrms

Learn to play.

Sorry but it really IS that easy. I play non lrm Dires and brawling atlases and dont use ECM (Dont have a DDC) nor AMS.

[Joe Mallad]

kosmos1214, on 03 November 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

pretty much what i think its jest people who wont learn from there mistakes that complane about them.
if i get lrmed to death i almost always know what i did wrong
and lrms dont need a lock to fire they need one to home in but not to fire

again, as I have said... LRMs are ok, it's all the other systems that we have that are allowing LRMs to be used so much and with such numbers. If we all could not spot for LRMs as we do now, as if TAG, NARC and other like systems were also uses on specific mech (like ECM), there would not be as many systems in the field to help all the LRMs. This would tone the numbers done IMO. And if more people want them to be used as a indirect fire support weapon, we would need a few dedicated C3 equipped mech spotters. Not this free built in "everyone" can target as we have now.

[Joe Mallad]

Abivard, on 03 November 2014 - 04:53 PM, said:

Wow, pull the other one while you are at it, at least 6 mechs? more like 2 mechs with a total of 50 lrms between them and all them turrets makes it seem more.
In pugs I see more LRM usage, as skill increases LRM's disappear because they become less and less effective, In group play the team that has the most LRM's is usually the team that LOSES!

All of the above strongly indicates USER ERROR is what makes LRM's effective, the answer to this is for the USER to correct their errors, or in other words L2P.

ok so you don't see 80% to 90% of all Clan mechs Spamming LRMs right now? It looks like blue fire flies all over the place lol. On night maps, I don't wen need to use the thermo or night vision because the LRMs light up the sky, there are so many of them lol.

And as I said, I use LRMs myself. So for those saying learn to play them, I know how to play them and have relearned how to use them with every new change that PGI adds. Iv been through every LRM change from day 1 in closed Beta.

[WarHippy]

Yoseful Mallad, on 03 November 2014 - 04:58 PM, said:

again, as I have said... LRMs are ok, it's all the other systems that we have that are allowing LRMs to be used so much and with such numbers. If we all could not spot for LRMs as we do now, as if TAG, NARC and other like systems were also uses on specific mech (like ECM), there would not be as many systems in the field to help all the LRMs. This would tone the numbers done IMO. And if more people want them to be used as a indirect fire support weapon, we would need a few dedicated C3 equipped mech spotters. Not this free built in "everyone" can target as we have now.

If LRMs are fine then why is there a need to decrease their use through lowering availability and usefulness of the supporting systems? Your argument make zero sense. You can't go around advocating for nerfs while saying they are fine.

[kosmos1214]

WarHippy, on 03 November 2014 - 05:04 PM, said:

If LRMs are fine then why is there a need to decrease their use through lowering availability and usefulness of the supporting systems? Your argument make zero sense. You can't go around advocating for nerfs while saying they are fine.

thats exactly what iv ben thinking

[PappySmurf]

Look I hate nerfs period in MWO they do not fix problems with anything all nerfs are is a quick bandaid for the I want to nerf crowd or I will uninstall the game.

The correct approach to missiles balance would be to lower the ARC 10-15% to provide more cover for those with less skills. 1/2 the animations and cockpit shake and take away the group targeting function the R button has.Only allow group target locks if a command mech was in the battle or a scout mech has group targeting installed on that chassis.

That way every individual command module mech has a role all scouts with the targeting module has a role and it is much harder for a team to just mass spam missiles or get instant target information on one individual player so he is not mass converged upon with direct fire?

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Plus; nerf lrms then ppl scream for the next weapon to nerf. Soon we have NO weapons. Thatll be a fun game

[elitewolverine]

WarHippy, on 03 November 2014 - 05:04 PM, said:

If LRMs are fine then why is there a need to decrease their use through lowering availability and usefulness of the supporting systems? Your argument make zero sense. You can't go around advocating for nerfs while saying they are fine.

Because the LRM itself is rather fine. If you were on a one on one encounter, they would behave/act like they most likely should.

What becomes the issue, is when you add others.

Spotting, with little penatly (enough to make it no penalty).
ECM
NARC
TAG
Damage profile (grouping)
Smoke effect that blinds your enemy after he just got a free easy shot

ECM never was supposed to affect, targeting. Yes yes, we know its not TT, guess what it works, it works because it was tested. LRM's should lock and fire upon 'PHYSICAL' site of the mech.

NARC and TAG work pretty much as advertised, though tag should be a cool down weapon too, having this infinite lock cycle with the quarter on a designated key (or program), makes it abit overboard.

Spotting: Game rules allowed it so that big matches did not become, this light, spots for the entire team. First spot has a harder time hitting, next person even higher, and it added to their own targeting issues as well. No more than 2 spots could be done per turn. Imagine that, the game from 1985 knew that LRMs could be a bad thing if everyone got free no limits bounds to the firing of spotting. This can be fixed by my idea above, actual spotters lists, should be simple ifthenelse code.

Missles as far as i can tell, automatically target and will hit CT, They can create damage to the rear even if hit from the front. Spread it out like the TT and it wont be as bad when 60 missles hit you.

Smoke blinding. Yes, for the mech that just got hit, not only do they get no radar detection telling them where, from who, they now have to play, lets be blind for 2 seconds, and oh no, we cant see them. Ok wait for the missles to come at me, i have to be in the open, find them, and then fire back. All the while 2-3 salvos are released.

So i dont think he was saying LRMs need a nerf, the support systems that support and cause the spam fest that is rather annoying, (even though i run a dual lrm15 Awesome), becomes rather annoying.

[Chuck Jager]

LRMs are easy, but just as easy to counter. The little team play I have been on I have seen very specific use of lrms. It is PUG that this is an issue.

I basically look to see if their are more than 2-3 sets of volleys from different places, and if answer is yes do not stick head over obstacle especially if the arc is clan based. If they have 2-3 players in background that means let them stick their heads up because the numbers will not be in their advantage for direct firepower. Very very very simple math that does not depend on AMS or radar derp. Do not depend on a pug team to get it. If you do not have radar derp try bring AMS, is another simple rule that folks will abandon in favor of potentially higher damage numbers. I have only seen one PUG match where the team just kept retreating out of LRM range and killed off their helpless impatient direct fire, brutally effective.

I do take LRMs on some builds especially my Atlas D because short range slow brawls usually only happen after we have either lost or won the match. a 5 pack lrms can easily get your assist count a lot higher than a srm4 and is great for lvling a mech you may want to never invest DH or endo. Unless I have TAG and BAP/CAP maybe Art and plan on using LOS indirect fire with less than 30 shots per volley really does not amount to much damage. I have seen more games lost by teams with lights or mediums sitting behind cover trying to use their 5-10 shot volley the whole game (especially ecm kit foxes).

I have the option to change load outs and after 2-3 matches it becomes obvious if it is a LRM night, I adjust accordingly. TAG also is a great way to counter heavy ECM imbalance and guide the herd in PUGs. TAG cbill benefit does mean that folks may actually unknowingly help their team.

In PUG what I do see is that even packing a 5-15 shot volley or TAG, I contribute more to the team in the early game by weeding out obviously newer players or the poor assault whose team left them so our team gets the 2-3 kill lead. So LRMs are not OP they are just OP at seal clubbing in PUGs.

[elitewolverine]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 03 November 2014 - 05:22 PM, said:

Plus; nerf lrms then ppl scream for the next weapon to nerf. Soon we have NO weapons. Thatll be a fun game

Nerf is a bandaid. Nerf would imply to reduce damage. I dont think anyone here supports that. Right now there is enough systems in place to make LRMs very dominate and all to easy on the field. Enough that yes, i have been cored, in an Awesome, before i could move to cover, within minutes of an opening match, without ever seeing a mech closer than 900m.

Let me point though, that i believe, quick deaths should be part of the game. I believe the armor nerf (double armor, thanks pgi lets make lights not afraid of big boys), should be dealt with. The quick reload times, dealt with. The heat nerf, ghost heat? seriously? should be dealt with. I believe that a 'lucky' shot at max range from a gauss should core the hell out of a head shot (currently it wont). So no it is not about nerfs, its about not messing with systems that actually WORK.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

LRMs are so easy to counter though -.-

Try running a LRM boat in the solo que.

No teamwork gets you dead in record time.

[elitewolverine]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 03 November 2014 - 05:31 PM, said:

LRMs are so easy to counter though -.-

Try running a LRM boat in the solo que.

No teamwork gets you dead in record time.

This would happen in TT as well, nothing new. Special builds usually do not do well in solo. If played right my jenner from 3025 could outdo a 3055 hammerhands.

[El Bandito]

Chuck YeaGurr, on 03 November 2014 - 05:24 PM, said:

In PUG what I do see is that even packing a 5-15 shot volley or TAG, I contribute more to the team in the early game by weeding out obviously newer players or the poor assault whose team left them so our team gets the 2-3 kill lead. So LRMs are not OP they are just OP at seal clubbing in PUGs.

You mean LRMs are good at teaching the scrubs the value of cover. No other weapon system nicely reminds the pugger that a shot is coming--and a slow one at that. A pugger should still be considered green until he passes the crucible of LRMs and conquers the fear of them.

Edited by El Bandito, 03 November 2014 - 05:43 PM.

[MechPorn]

Yoseful Mallad, on 03 November 2014 - 02:56 PM, said:

I see and hear a lot of people saying LRMs need a damage reduction. This will not help. All this will do is cause people to boat more to make up for the damage reduction.

How are they going to make up for the lack of damage? Boat more? I do not think that this would be possible. Do you think that they are going to magically make more missile hard points available when they reduce the LRM 5 by .5 damage, or the 10 by 1, the 15 by 1.5 and the 20 by two?

With the weapon only really landing 15%-25% of the time, this damage is even reduced more. The LRM 5 loses .1, the 10 by .2, the 15 by .3 and the 20 buy .4. Not really a huge nerf in the respects of things. If no one can get past this, I would be surprised.

Yoseful Mallad, on 03 November 2014 - 02:56 PM, said:

The reason LRMs are everywhere is because of 2 reasons.

Actually, there are a lot of reasons why, but I’ll let you entertain me here…

Yoseful Mallad, on 03 November 2014 - 02:56 PM, said:

1. They are outright, just to easy to use.

Yes, they are just as easy as let’s say, pointing your lasers at someone and firing for instant damage. Oh, wait...with lasers I do not have to worry about any Anti-Laser System, no ECM preventing locks, no hills (as they are right there).

I am sure, that your lasers do damage randomly across the enemy ‘Mech.

Then I am sure you have to worry about the arc of your laser weapon…oh crap…it goes in a straight line.

Never mind, your obviously wrong…lasers are way easier to use.

Ballistics, take lead time skill, but this is the same as missiles techniques in figuring out how, when, were and who you are firing at. Just throwing out candy to throw candy is pointless. Sure, it’s a little more difficult than lasers; you get a huge pinpoint of damage unlike missiles which go all over the place. Are ballistics easier then ballistics? I would say they are about the same, with ballistics taking a little more skill at range. Close in Machine Gun, AC 10 and 20, are no skill weapons to boot.

Yoseful Mallad, on 03 November 2014 - 02:56 PM, said:

2. ECM is a big reason there are so many LRMs being used.

What? Are you high…ECM totally removes the ability to use LRMs against someone. Unless you have BAP, and are within 180-200 meters. BAP against ECM always loses; you cannot maintain the 20 meters effectively against an ECM ‘Mech. Considering that it takes so long to get a lock, while they are in this 20 meter range. The changes to BAP coming on 11/3/14, is a long time in coming and very welcome.

ECM has been a community crutch for too long and it is a welcome addition to see BAP finally negating it.

Yoseful Mallad, on 03 November 2014 - 02:56 PM, said:

Now let me explain. As for LRMs being to easy to use, we need to get away from everyone being able to target and relay info and target location back to anyone and everyone in their team. PGI really wants to promote role warfare? Than do it. And the way to do that is to give select mechs the C3 system and "those mechs" now have a role of your "lance" that can target and relay target info back to LRM mechs in "that lance". We should not have all mechs that can target and relay info and targets back to all mechs on your team.

So, you’re saying, play like me. I don’t want to have to creep on my enemy with no consequences for running in the open, letting my enemies see where I am?

Again, calling the LRMs no skill weapons is like saying lasers are a skilled weapon, when in fact, they are even more of a low skill weapon.

So, you proposal for this solution, is to give certain ‘Mechs that have no desire to mount LRMs, something they need to bring so that their random teammates can use their LRMs on the enemy? This is as bad of an idea as ECM in its current state.

Yoseful Mallad, on 03 November 2014 - 02:56 PM, said:

If you don't have a mech in your lance that can target and spot for your lance's LRM mechs, than those LRM mechs will have to get LOS their selves and give up their cover. And the same needs to be done for UAVs. The mech that deploys that UAV can only use the UAV to spot for its lance and that's it. UAVs like our mechs, should not be able to transmit data and targets to everyone on your team.

So, again you are saying: Play like me, or I will cry a river. I don’t want to think outside the box, seek cover, and let the enemy see me whenever I want without consequences.

Cripple a system that is already crippled. There are so many counters to LRMs, it is a choice that community/people make to not bring these things.

Yoseful Mallad, on 03 November 2014 - 02:56 PM, said:

As for ECM being a reason we are seeing so many LRMs... PGI made TAG, NARC and so counters to ECM and unintentionally gave LRM guys more reason to use them. The battlefield is crowded with NARC and TAG now so there are now more LRMs to take advantage of it. And as I've said a few times now, PGI needs to make NARC, TAG and other like systems only available on select mechs just like ECM and AMS. Not every mech can run ECM or AMS, so why should they all be able to run TAG and other like systems? Limit all these systems to "role" type mechs and push the role warfare more.

Yes, yes they did. It is a good thing. LRM ‘Mechs are support ‘Mechs. They are not in your face ballistics or SRM ‘Mechs. They are there to force the enemy into cover, barrage their support and counter chargers into your enemy front lines. They are a there to create fear and panic. I cannot and do not want to image Mechwarrior Online where there is no support. Again, though…this is another play like me or I will cry a river.

Yoseful Mallad, on 03 November 2014 - 02:56 PM, said:

If only some mechs can mount TAG or NARC, AMS or C3 to spot for LRMs to be used as an indirect fire support weapon... Watch how fast people learn to work better as units. Give people reasons besides weapon quirks" to want to take certain mechs. "Weapon quirks" IMO are not the end all be all that make role warfare possible. Make dedicated C3 (spotter) mechs, dedicated NARC, TAG ad other role type mechs.

Again, community/people choices are reflected here. And…again…play like me or I will cry a river.

Have you ever thought, that maybe, just maybe, that your play style might need a little adjusting instead of taking your frustrations out on an aspect of the game?

Throwing even more crap on already gimped system is pathetic. No other weapon system in the game has so many counters in the game. There is AMS, ECM, cover, warning systems, Target Deprivation Modules, and two AMS enhancement modules.

Do we see lasers and ballistics being affected by any anti-system? No, that is because if they did, there would be Mississippi size rivers of tears flowing through the MechWarrior Online forums. Currently all we are getting is people who do not like the system in place for LRMs because they cannot/refuse to adapt to it.

I for one, see your idea of forcing people to add even more equipment onto their crappy LRM boats as a means of garnering an even more imbalance towards your particular style of play.

Edited by TB Xiomburg, 03 November 2014 - 05:45 PM.

[WarHippy]

elitewolverine, on 03 November 2014 - 05:23 PM, said:

So i dont think he was saying LRMs need a nerf, the support systems that support and cause the spam fest that is rather annoying, (even though i run a dual lrm15 Awesome), becomes rather annoying.

Have you ever heard the saying "Don't throw the baby out with the bath water"? That is what he is saying to do. By decreasing the effectiveness of the supporting systems he is also nerfing LRMs which he supposedly feels are fine. It is either a completely nonsensical thought process, or it is a poor attempt to nerf LRMs under the guise of nerfing something else. Either way it is nonsense.

[Joe Mallad]

WarHippy, on 03 November 2014 - 05:04 PM, said:

If LRMs are fine then why is there a need to decrease their use through lowering availability and usefulness of the supporting systems? Your argument make zero sense. You can't go around advocating for nerfs while saying they are fine.

im saying that with all the other threads and even Russ himself, saying that LRMs need or might need a 10% reduction in damage... that, that is NOT the way to go. Thats what I mean by LRMs as in damage and range ARE FINE. Try reading what im saying. BUT as for the total numbers of LRMs and amount of players in any given match using them... IMO, the numbers being used are far to many. The ability for so much NARC, TAG and everyone being able to target for LRMs is whats allowing for their numbers to be so high. Im not complaining about LRMs AS... I... USE...THEM...TOO!! Im just seeing it from the eyes of those that see only LRM spamming in most matches. I feel them, because I see it too. LRMs just have way to many easy button AID systems.

[El Bandito]

Yoseful Mallad, on 03 November 2014 - 05:48 PM, said:

im saying that with all the other threads and even Russ himself, saying that LRMs need or might need a 10% reduction in damage... that, that is NOT the way to go. Thats what I mean by LRMs as in damage and range ARE FINE. Try reading what im saying. BUT as for the total numbers of LRMs and amount of players in any given match using them... IMO, the numbers being used are far to many. The ability for so much NARC, TAG and everyone being able to target for LRMs is whats allowing for their numbers to be so high. Im not complaining about LRMs AS... I... USE...THEM...TOO!! Im just seeing it from the eyes of those that see only LRM spamming in most matches. I feel them, because I see it too. LRMs just have way to many easy button AID systems.

FARK THAT EXCUSE! I see people spamming lasers FAR MORE than LRMs in matches, and lasers are even easier to use than LRMs due to instant contact, with no counters, no minimum range, and no ammo related issues. Not to mention ERLLasers can peel off my armor from 1200 meters away! Laser vomit builds also work in all Elo ranges, unlike LRMs.

Does that mean Lasers should be toned down as well? No, I have simply gotten used to dealing with them. Others should get used to LRMs too, without QQing on the forums.

Edited by El Bandito, 03 November 2014 - 05:57 PM.