27 replies to this topic

[Chrithu]

Why another thread? Because the other thread was too much focused around ballistics or not even though the K2 gets only one generic ballistic quirk.

A lot of people obviously saw the title and thought: "Wow the K2 get's ballistic quirks (plural, as in multiple, as opposed to just the one it gets in reality) and people want to take it away? I better jump in there and make some strawmans to get my boomcat/gausscat/AC10 cat buffed."

The real discussion should have been whether the Catapult K2 really makes sense as a skirmish mech. Looking at the October Roadmap command chair thread and the optimal ranges for the weapons that get quirked for skirmish I guess the idea is that any encounter between 200m and 600m is considered a skirmish.

Now what arguments are there in favor of the K2 being a skirmish mech? I can think of just two to be honest:

• It's Hardpoint layout and weight allow for packing quite the firepower in that range class.
  
• It's movement speed and agility allow for good use of cover in the distant region of the range bracket (400m to 600m)

What are the arguments against it?:

• Due to it's geometry it's center torso soaks in a lot of damage (more than most other IS mechs in it's weight class except for the Dragon).
  
• The position of the cockpit almost in the center of the frontal silhouette makes it very prone to headshots which are easier made in skirmish range.
  
• The nerf to max torso twist and torso twist rate it got during Open Beta makes it almost impossible to twist away damage in the low end of the skirmish range bracket (200m to 400m). Let alone in brawling range (which you are very easily forced into when in skirmish range).
  
• The High Arm mounts without lower arm actuators (left and right arm twist) and the point of view from the cockpit speak a clear language of being designed for shooting over cover from long range.
  
• Ballistics need ammo and with the abysmal defensive capabilities of the K2 mean it is very prone to ammo explosions and thus lost legs/arms/sidetorsos.

For me this sums up to this: While I acknowledge that the K2 can bring quite some oomph to skirmishes I generally do not feel very comfortable exposing my K2 to enemy fire in that range bracket. I feel much more comfortable being able to hide my legs (with my ammo) behind cover and shooting from afar with combinations of Gauss/AC2/AC5 and PPC/ERPCC.

Objectively my conclusion is that there are two options: Either reclassify the K2 to Support and put quirks for PPCs and long range ballistics on it or at least change the medium laser quirks to large laser quirks to allow for fighting from the distant end of the skirmish range bracket and make up for the defensive shortcomings of the chassis.

Edited by Jason Parker, 04 November 2014 - 12:49 AM.

[Telmasa]

I agree...even with direct-fire versions of the chassis, the intent of the Catapult has always been a support-role mech.

[Blood Rose]

+1 give us three PPC quirks, and make them major.

Ballistic and MLaser builds can go frak themselves, the K2 has also been about a pair of big heavy PPC's and the ballistics have never been anything more than a tertiary backup system.

[Chrithu]

Blood Rose, on 04 November 2014 - 01:55 AM, said:

+1 give us three PPC quirks, and make them major.

Ballistic and MLaser builds can go frak themselves, the K2 has also been about a pair of big heavy PPC's and the ballistics have never been anything more than a tertiary backup system.

While this is true in BT and Lore it is not in MWO. The Catapult has been a prime dual gauss/AC 2/UAC5 platform ever since closed beta. Ballistic focused builds have their valid place on the K2 in MWO ever since just as much as the classic PPC build. But it was most of the time about long range. As I said on the OP: I do NOT want to argue about ballastics or not. My point is that regardless of ballistic or energy there is quite the list of arguments speaking against classifying the K2 as a skirmish mech.

[Blood Rose]

Jason Parker, on 04 November 2014 - 02:14 AM, said:

While this is true in BT and Lore it is not in MWO. The Catapult has been a prime dual gauss/AC 2/UAC5 platform ever since closed beta. Ballistic focused builds have their valid place on the K2 in MWO ever since just as much as the classic PPC build. But it was most of the time about long range. As I said on the OP: I do NOT want to argue about ballastics or not. My point is that regardless of ballistic or energy there is quite the list of arguments speaking against classifying the K2 as a skirmish mech.

In order to avoid an arguement we should agree to disagree

[Alex Warden Wolf]

quirks for (general) balistics + for (general) energy (still not sure to which PGI counts PPCs) ...done... that way the catapult k2 could still be a multirole support mech (as i thought it was always meant to be) and not a specialized something that´s - as the op describes beautyfully - not very optimal for the forced role...

Edited by Alex Warden Wolf, 04 November 2014 - 02:28 AM.

[Dimitry Matveyev]

Jason Parker, on 04 November 2014 - 02:14 AM, said:

While this is true in BT and Lore it is not in MWO. The Catapult has been a prime dual gauss/AC 2/UAC5 platform ever since closed beta. Ballistic focused builds have their valid place on the K2 in MWO ever since just as much as the classic PPC build. But it was most of the time about long range. As I said on the OP: I do NOT want to argue about ballastics or not. My point is that regardless of ballistic or energy there is quite the list of arguments speaking against classifying the K2 as a skirmish mech.

I agree, it is a good AC platform, but only because it's more effective than PPC's. If PPC's would be more effective for K2 (with the help of quirks) there would be more PPC K2 builds, than AC.

I totally agree with TS, K2 is not a skirmisher, it's a direct fire support and PPC or ER PPC should be buffed for K2, not balistics.

[Tristan Winter]

The CPLT-K2 should definitely get some PPC quirks. There's a significant number of players who want this. More than any other mech, the players seem really dissatisfied with the K2 quirks. And it's no surprise. PGI just messed with one of the most iconic mech variants in Battletech. It's like giving the Hunchback HBK-4J a PPC quirk instead of laser quirks.

[Pale Jackal]

There's no reason PGI can't give 'mechs additional quirks.

For instance, the K2 could have its current ballistic quirks AND some PPC quirks. (Of course, since the K2 can field 2 AC5 and 2 PPC reasonably well, maybe the PPC quirks wouldn't be as extreme as some would like.)

I understand PGI wants variants to have a specific role, but it seems appropriate to buff a 'mechs iconic loadout, and given that the K2 is visually distinct from the other Catapults, I think PPC buffs are warranted.

[Chrithu]

Just to add something to make my point clearer: In addition to the K2 I also run a Jester. The Jester absolutely makes sense as a skirmish mech because it is much better defense wise: Dual AMS (that can be used in most good builds whereas the K2 in viable builds often lacks the tonnage to carry AMS), Jump Jets, faster torso twist, faster movement speed and if I am correct even faster turn rate.

Dimitry Matveyev, on 04 November 2014 - 02:32 AM, said:

I agree, it is a good AC platform, but only because it's more effective than PPC's. If PPC's would be more effective for K2 (with the help of quirks) there would be more PPC K2 builds, than AC.

As a K2 player since closed beta I tell you the K2 being good with ballistics has nothing to do with the PPCs being nerfed. It was always good with ACs. During closed beta and most of open beta it was PPCs or UAC 5 on the K2, with a gausscat thrown in here and there and the occasional dual AC 20 cat for the lulz.

[MeiSooHaityu]

As I have said in other threads, the ballistic hardpoints on the K2 have doomed it when it comes to PPC quirks.

The K2 does deserve Awesome like PPC quirks, but if it had them, the birth of the 2 PPC/1 A/C10 Cat would be born. Maybe 2 PPCs, 2 A/C5s or even 2 PPCs and 2 U/AC5s (although slow). I bet PGI was going to give it PPC perks and thought....Uh oh, the K2 is going to become a high alpha FLD build....Ok, lets give it some small ballistic quirks and some small energy quirks instead.

Should the K2 get PPC quirks? Yes. I would love to have a powerful weapon like the PPC on high mounted articulating arms instead of powerful ballistics stationary in a torso mounted lower. Will we get PPC perks? Doubtful. It is a shame.

[Chrithu]

MeiSooHaityu, on 04 November 2014 - 02:53 AM, said:

As I have said in other threads, the ballistic hardpoints on the K2 have doomed it when it comes to PPC quirks.

The K2 does deserve Awesome like PPC quirks, but if it had them, the birth of the 2 PPC/1 A/C10 Cat would be born. Maybe 2 PPCs, 2 A/C5s or even 2 PPCs and 2 U/AC5s (although slow). I bet PGI was going to give it PPC perks and thought....Uh oh, the K2 is going to become a high alpha FLD build....Ok, lets give it some small ballistic quirks and some small energy quirks instead.

Should the K2 get PPC quirks? Yes. I would love to have a powerful weapon like the PPC on high mounted articulating arms instead of powerful ballistics stationary in a torso mounted lower. Will we get PPC perks? Doubtful. It is a shame.

I dunno about that. It's not like quirks give you better hardpoints. You can run all those combos already and if I am not mistaken especially the 2PPC + 1 AC10 build is a lot better snychronized since the PPC velocity nerf. I think with PPC quirks on the K2 we would finally get energy sniping and the ability for long range ECM disruption back.

But even if there is no PPC Quirks to come it still makes no sense in my view to classify the K2 as a skirmisher. And even if PGI insists on the K2 being a great skirmisher then buffing Medium Lasers of all the skirmish weapons is a very poor choice since it kinda forces you to almost brawling range for best performance, which in light of the poor defensive traits of the mech is kinda like a death sentence.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Jason Parker, on 04 November 2014 - 03:03 AM, said:

I dunno about that. It's not like quirks give you better hardpoints. You can run all those combos already and if I am not mistaken especially the 2PPC + 1 AC10 build is a lot better snychronized since the PPC velocity nerf. I think with PPC quirks on the K2 we would finally get energy sniping and the ability for long range ECM disruption back.

But even if there is no PPC Quirks to come it still makes no sense in my view to classify the K2 as a skirmisher. And even if PGI insists on the K2 being a great skirmisher then buffing Medium Lasers of all the skirmish weapons is a very poor choice since it kinda forces you to almost brawling range for best performance, which in light of the poor defensive traits of the mech is kinda like a death sentence.

You can run the combo now, but PPCs are so hot and ballistic travel time so slow, it isn't popular anymore (syncd or not). If PPCs were made GOOD (like on the Awesome), the PPC / A/C10 would come back. Just my opinoin though, and I think that is why PGI didn't do it.

Yea, the K2 is not a skirmisher or brawler, it is a support mech. It is too Squishy to get in close with it's oversized CT torso. It should get PPC quirks like the Awesome, but recieve negative Gauss, A/C20, and A/C10 quirks (which they aren't doing negative quirks so it is a mute point).

Like i said, I'd rather have high mounted articulated powerful weapons for sniping and laying support fire vs torso mounted ones that are fixed and lower, but I just don't see them doing it.

Maybe they will and it will suprise me.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 04 November 2014 - 03:10 AM.

[Alex Warden Wolf]

MeiSooHaityu, on 04 November 2014 - 03:09 AM, said:

You can run the combo now, but PPCs are so hot and ballistic travel time so slow, it isn't popular anymore (syncd or not). If PPCs were made GOOD (like on the Awesome), the PPC / A/C10 would come back. Just my opinoin though, and I think that is why PGI didn't do it.

yea, and instead they are doing it on the firebrand, which is an MC mech... i think your interpretion of PGI´s reasoning is a little off here

[MeiSooHaityu]

Alex Warden Wolf, on 04 November 2014 - 03:13 AM, said:

yea, and instead they are doing it on the firebrand, which is an MC mech... i think your interpretion of PGI´s reasoning is a little off here

Maybe...who knows.

I do know that PGI hates the Catapult though, so maybe their hate trumps reason. LOL

[Alex Warden Wolf]

[Chrithu]

Alex Warden Wolf, on 04 November 2014 - 03:13 AM, said:

yea, and instead they are doing it on the firebrand, which is an MC mech... i think your interpretion of PGI´s reasoning is a little off here

Good point.

[Lykaon]

Pale Jackal, on 04 November 2014 - 02:48 AM, said:

There's no reason PGI can't give 'mechs additional quirks.

For instance, the K2 could have its current ballistic quirks AND some PPC quirks. (Of course, since the K2 can field 2 AC5 and 2 PPC reasonably well, maybe the PPC quirks wouldn't be as extreme as some would like.)

I would say "reasonably well" is up for debate.

The most "reasonable" loadout with AC5s and PPCs I could manage has the arms stripped down to 5 armor each (necessitating the mounting of PPCs in side torsos thus forgoing the arm mount's advantages of elevation and high possitioning to maximize cover use.) 2.5 tons of ammo per gun (a tad low considering you will be relying on the ACs for your DPS) and only 10 DHS to handle the extreme heat burden of twin PPC use.Essentially I could build a better mech with similar capabilities on a different chassis in the weight class. ( I would go with an Orion 1V for example you should get max armor more ammo and much improved heat disapation)

Honestly I would prefer the K2 having PPC quirks mainly on account of the stock build having 14 tons dedicated to PPCs.And as it has been said,with possitive PPCs quirks the viability of PPC based K2 builds should equal the current trend of forcing the K2 into the ballistics pigeonhole simple because it has MGs on it's stock config.

If you want a 65 ton ballistics mech we have those already we do not have a decent 65 ton PPC platform.

[Chrithu]

Lykaon, on 04 November 2014 - 03:59 AM, said:

If you want a 65 ton ballistics mech we have those already we do not have a decent 65 ton PPC platform.

Funny enough they actually gave the Firebrand (Jager Hero) PPC quirks, which happens to be a 65 ton mech that on top even is better than the K2 at fielding 2x PPC + 2x AC5.

Fear of creating overpowered builds can pretty much be scratched from the list of reasoning behind what mechs gets what quirks.

Edit: Just checked the quirk list:

The only mechs getting PPC or ERPPC quirks are the CDA 3C (which is hilarious since it get's the ERPPC buffed beayond reason, while having exactly 1 Energy Hardpoint...), the Thunderbolt 9S, the Awesome and the firebrand. Actually the Thunderbolt 9S now looks like a fairly decent PPC boat at 65 tons.

Edited by Jason Parker, 04 November 2014 - 09:02 AM.

[Mothykins]

There is one other thing going against the PPC; the arms are actually very fragile, like most Catapult arms. Compared to the Jager, they're so high up that people can shoot them before you can actually see over the ridge; As such they'd need an IS buff to help protect those cannons.