28 replies to this topic

[Riverboat Sam]

Went by my local 40K retail store on Sunday. It was empty. Downright forlorn. Manager was depressed.

About a year ago Games Workshop went from issuing a major rules change (codex, whatever), about twice a year to twice a month. Not only that, the changes got downright wild. The players kept up with it for about six months and then it was like the straw that broke the camel's back. Most of my friends and I just gave up and wandered off to do something else for a while. I hear that the GW folks have responded by ramping up the rate of change even more.

My point being, every change to the rules of a game system results in players being forced to adapt, adjust, and often purchase new toys to make the new meta work for them. Players put up with this to a point and then a sort of fatigue state sets in and they just give up.

I'm really starting to wonder if MWO is closing in on that critical level of rules churn? it's beginning to feel that way to me. I've already decided I'm not spending one more penny on this game unless things settle down. What's the point? The cool mech you buy today could be eviscerated and on the trash heap tomorrow.

Don't like your current stable of mechs? Just wait until the next patch. Chances are everything will change again anyway.....

[Scratx]

I understand your concerns but I don't think it's going to be a long-term problem. You might want to consider that there are a lot of pent-up balance-related issues that are finally being tackled. There will probably be a flurry of changes over a period of time, then things should settle down, with only small tweaks done.

The big changes, in fact, are pretty much all down to the Quirkening. We'll find out most of that effect over the next couple of weeks, as it drops in on us today...

[Desolator]

Should have been smart and decided to play Warmachine/Hordes instead of that craptastic GW product.

[Jacob Side]

An Online game is a bit different from a board game when they change the rules. With the board game you have to buy a whole stack of new books and playing pieces. Online game you just have to play and learn how the new rules affect you and your play style

[Morang]

Riverboat Sam, on 04 November 2014 - 08:03 AM, said:

I'm really starting to wonder if MWO is closing in on that critical level of rules churn?

It does. Now I really feel tester's burnout PGI lied about back then - though the game officially isn't beta being tested anymore. It's just PGI failing the job to develop acceptable balance in time - because of their own downfalls, scarce playerbase or IGP involvement up to this summer. So they're still forced to introduce grand rules' changes, going from one extreme to another both in said changes and in listening/not listening to players.

That said, I still think that the changes will eventually make the game better - it just was underdeveloped for too long. I'm not against changes. But perhaps it's really better to move to something else for now, then come back when the game will become closer to being finished, with major gameplay mechanics relatively firmly in place.

[Xythius]

Well, as an ex-long time 40k player, the difference is this - an average 1500-2k pts army will set you back $500-700 (inc codex, core rules, psy-powers cards where applicable). Then you have to assemble, paint & convert as necessary. Also, many times you will either have to buy multiples of the same pack/box in order to get the specific weapon combo's you want/need to be effective. If/when the rules change, sometimes you literally have to rebuild your army (as happened to my Chaos Space Marines in every iteration since the 3.5 dex), necessitating another several hundred $ spending spree. Then assembly, paint, etc. all over again.

At least here, when you spend $55 on an al a carte pack (simply for ease of comparison), you get three variants of mechs, each w/ the weapons & mech bays necessary to use/house them. If you've been playing for any length of time you (should) have some c-bills available to tweak the mechs to your liking. They may not be 'meta' after a patch or an update, but a skilled pilot can still make them effective.

In 40k, for $55 you got ONE BOX of mini's, generally the minimum # to make a squad (using my CSM as an example) & if you wanted a whole squad, you spent another $55 for another box. If a new rule set came out & suddenly made them unplayable due to a change in rules that shifted the meta, making that squad obsolete (thank you Chaos Cultists) you were out the $110 plus time spent painting, ON TOP of having to spend MORE money to buy the new units to stay competetive.

This is hardly, even anywhere remotely close to what happens in MWO when they adjust/nerf/buff aspects of the game. At least in MWO, you're generally able to simply change the layout of the mech & stay in contention, you don't have to run out & purchase new mechs + mechbays to replace what no longer 'works'.

~Xythius

[Riverboat Sam]

Desolator, on 04 November 2014 - 08:13 AM, said:

Should have been smart and decided to play Warmachine/Hordes instead of that craptastic GW product.

Got a Cryx starter sitting on my hobby bench right now.... :-)

[Metus regem]

Riverboat Sam, on 04 November 2014 - 08:03 AM, said:

Went by my local 40K retail store on Sunday. It was empty. Downright forlorn. Manager was depressed.

About a year ago Games Workshop went from issuing a major rules change (codex, whatever), about twice a year to twice a month. Not only that, the changes got downright wild. The players kept up with it for about six months and then it was like the straw that broke the camel's back. Most of my friends and I just gave up and wandered off to do something else for a while. I hear that the GW folks have responded by ramping up the rate of change even more.

My point being, every change to the rules of a game system results in players being forced to adapt, adjust, and often purchase new toys to make the new meta work for them. Players put up with this to a point and then a sort of fatigue state sets in and they just give up.

For me, I used to play a lot of 40k, even still have my Space Marine 1st company (113 Terminators with 12 Land Raiders of various types) and Air-cav Guard...

For me, one of the reasons I left the game due to the rising cost of it, when it became less expensive for me to buy Forge World models, than the basic ones, something is wrong with their pricing structure...

The basic box for IG infantry went from 20 guys, to 10 guys for the same price... Most new kits have 5 guys in them, half a squad for Space Marines, meaning you just doubled your investment to get a basic unit. Even the stock price and management shake up at GW world HQ is reflecting these issues.

The other being that my son was born, and I would rather spend that few hundred $/month on him, than some plastic crack that I hardly even touched in the last year before he was born.

The rules shift from 5th to 6th edition was hard, a lot of armies had their backs broken with it, but the shift to 7th edition was mostly done to fix the problems of 6th edition...

That being said, MWO is in an odd space, it has it's players, but I don't think it will get much bigger than it is, unless they make a massive shift in the way the game works in some way.

[Fut]

Riverboat Sam, on 04 November 2014 - 08:03 AM, said:

My point being, every change to the rules of a game system results in players being forced to adapt, adjust, and often purchase new toys to make the new meta work for them.

Here's the problem; people rely on the Meta-Crutch way too much.

[Riverboat Sam]

Morang, on 04 November 2014 - 08:21 AM, said:

It does. Now I really feel tester's burnout PGI lied about back then - though the game officially isn't beta being tested anymore. It's just PGI failing the job to develop acceptable balance in time - because of their own downfalls, scarce playerbase or IGP involvement up to this summer. So they're still forced to introduce grand rules' changes, going from one extreme to another both in said changes and in listening/not listening to players.

That said, I still think that the changes will eventually make the game better - it just was underdeveloped for too long. I'm not against changes. But perhaps it's really better to move to something else for now, then come back when the game will become closer to being finished, with major gameplay mechanics relatively firmly in place.

Too true. I have noticed my shameful spending on toys and games has gone down quite a bit since I got into MWO - and that's even after buying both Clan packs! Sad. But I have a 13 year old son and am re-living my youth; this time with money! That's my excuse.

[RG Notch]

Riverboat Sam, on 04 November 2014 - 08:03 AM, said:

Went by my local 40K retail store on Sunday. It was empty. Downright forlorn. Manager was depressed.

About a year ago Games Workshop went from issuing a major rules change (codex, whatever), about twice a year to twice a month. Not only that, the changes got downright wild. The players kept up with it for about six months and then it was like the straw that broke the camel's back. Most of my friends and I just gave up and wandered off to do something else for a while. I hear that the GW folks have responded by ramping up the rate of change even more.

My point being, every change to the rules of a game system results in players being forced to adapt, adjust, and often purchase new toys to make the new meta work for them. Players put up with this to a point and then a sort of fatigue state sets in and they just give up.

I'm really starting to wonder if MWO is closing in on that critical level of rules churn? it's beginning to feel that way to me. I've already decided I'm not spending one more penny on this game unless things settle down. What's the point? The cool mech you buy today could be eviscerated and on the trash heap tomorrow.

Don't like your current stable of mechs? Just wait until the next patch. Chances are everything will change again anyway.....

Things were much better when it was just jump sniping for months on end I guess.

[Lily from animove]

Well i bought the new dawi rulebook limited edition. Thats all they get, crappy rules, unfun to read even. throwed 500$ into a golden mech instead of some plastic figurines.

Sometimes some small changes can totally take away every motivation. Even if its just small things.

[DONTOR]

Yep, screw the meta's, play whats fun and make meta whores rethink their game when you man handle them. Meta changes often, but what you find fun to play usually stays about the same. I for one utilize speed above all else, and it has paid off for me in more ways than I could name.

[Walluh]

Changing the rules on a HILARIOUSLY EXPENSIVE table top game is a lot different than balancing an online pvp game..

[Logan Hawke]

There's a definite reason people are leaving WH40K other than the rules. The rules were never really good to begin with, they were average at best. It was the lack of other options, models, and lore that got people into it. Now that only one of those stands out at all (the lore), people are moving to great other games like Heavy Gear, Infinity, and Warmahordes. Capitalism is actually kinda working in this market and drawing people to superior products now that GW no longer holds a monopoly. Now if only the same thing would happen with cable and internet companies...

Spoiler

Speaking of Heavy Gear, they're currently running a pretty sweet kickstarter to get a bunch of their models in plastic for their modernized ruleset, if any of you are interested. https://www.kickstar...er-set/comments

Edited by Logan Hawke, 04 November 2014 - 09:11 AM.

[FupDup]

The key difference is that board games require you to often buy new crap when new rules come out (such as the books containing those rules), whereas online games don't require that.


Also, you say meta shifting as if it's a bad thing. The meta changing is a GOOD thing. Having to explore new options and figure out new tricks adds replayability and helps keep things from getting stale.

MWO has already had times in the past where the meta stagnated, such as the legendary PPC meta (8 heat and 2000 m/s travel speed, and no heat) and then the poptart meta. I shouldn't have to explain that such cookie-cutter copy-paste loadout times SUCKED.

[Walluh]

My King Crab hasn't came out and that makes me sad. Can I complain about that too?

[Moonlander]

The changes to my favorite mechs or weapons doesn't really bother me. I just adapt. Sure it sucks at first just like with any changes to any game I've played over the years but it happens. I don't play the flavor of the week type mechs. I've only been playing a couple months and I've easily dropped close to $800 on the game. I haven't really kept track, it could be more. I've bought the Clan packs and IS mastery packs along with the new IS Resistance. It takes a lot for me to stop playing something I enjoy.

Out of all the mechs I have, I play my IS assaults more than anything. so "meta" really doesn't bother me or apply to me much. When I play Dire's and Timber's, it's just ultra boring and I don't have to try much to get high damage or several kills. For me, I don't spend money to have better stuff than others (that's subjective). I spend the money because it makes me happy to have a lot of stuff and to support a game I really enjoy, regardless of me playing for a short time. I did play table top for many, many years and I still try to play when I can but I'm in a wheelchair and I can't drive, so this has been easier for me.

I think the moment you stop worrying about the "meta" and just have fun, I think you'll ind that this game isn't so terrible and it has a lot to offer. Unless you're incapable of having fun without being "the most powerful"...

Edited by Moonlander, 04 November 2014 - 09:29 AM.

[Elizander]

Jacob Side, on 04 November 2014 - 08:18 AM, said:

An Online game is a bit different from a board game when they change the rules. With the board game you have to buy a whole stack of new books and playing pieces. Online game you just have to play and learn how the new rules affect you and your play style

That's true, but if a game wants to be competitive on any level some stability is needed. For example, Capcom knows there are balance issues that they need to fix with the current version of Ultra Street Fighter 4 but will not touch the game until the end of the year due to tournaments having already been scheduled up until the Capcom Pro Tour in December and players have already practiced with the current ruleset. It's a general rule not to make sweeping changes while official competitive events are ongoing.

I am hoping we won't be getting new quirk changes every 2 weeks and I'd much prefer them on a 3-6 month cycle.

This first big batch of quirks is okay though.

Edited by Elizander, 04 November 2014 - 09:31 AM.

[DEMAX51]

The last few months, and the next few months, have been/will be tumultuous with balance changes in preparation of CW and Clan vs IS battles. Once they feel like they've got it pretty well sorted, the balance passes should be fewer and further between.