40 replies to this topic

[Josef Nader]

Not gonna lie, I'm actually really disappointed with the reward being restricted to LRM damage only. I can't ensure my teammates bring LRMs in a PUG match, and a mech that could pay out really effectively no matter what the situation before is now entirely reliant on having at least one LRM boat on their team.

It doesn't even effect assaults/heavies that much, as they can pack plenty of backup firepower if that TAG laser gets wasted. I had a blast playing my NARC/TAG/ECM/BAP E-War Raven this past weekend, and a big part of that was being able to get decent rewards even if my team wasn't throwing around LRMs. I didn't feel at a significant disadvantage in combat or with earnings by only bringing an SRM6 and 2 MLas. I had a role, and if I did my role well I got rewarded, same as an assault mech dealing tons of damage. It felt really good.

NARCing or TAGing a target is generally valuable, even if LRMs aren't getting fired at the target, especially if they are under ECM cover. Hitting a target with a NARC pod is always helpful, as it tracks their movement behind cover and broadcasts when they're about to peek, allowing your guys to rip into him. Using TAG to cut through ECM also helps your team out a lot regardless of the situation for much the same reason.

Limiting these rewards to LRM damage alone really cuts back my desire to pack both of them on there. Before, I maximized my reward regardless, and if I had LRM toting teammates, it made their missiles incredibly lethal. Now, I'm really tempted to pack more weapons in case my team doesn't have any boats, as I won't get paid and I'll have to rely on my damage done.

It's just really disappointing. I got to feel what role warfare would feel like, and I had a lot of fun playing a role that wasn't "shoot the robots". Now, I just don't see it being the same.

To be clear, I'm fine with them not rewarding you for your own damage. That's whatever. However, you should get paid for your teams damage/kills regardless of what weapons the enemy mech died to, as you providing that information is helping your team put that damage on the target. I also think you should be rewarded if you land the killing blow on a target you NARC/TAG'd, as otherwise you discourage me shooting at a weak target, and that's screwy.

Edited by Josef Nader, 04 November 2014 - 11:27 AM.

[Alexander MacTaggart]

NARC and TAG are systems designed to help missile systems. Just because they work now like they always have and you can't exploit them nothing has changed, except that you only get cash money from them if you're actually using them for their purpose.

If anything maybe now we can get a dialog going about raising pay back where it used to be instead of someone popping in with "income is fine, L2P noob" every half page.

[Joe Mallad]

I'm glad it was corrected and this is how it should have been.
Sure, PGI has turned them into counters for ECM. But as for their main purpose... TAG and NARC are meant to be support systems for LRMs and not other weapons. People want that bonus, than use them as intended and help your LRM guys get a kill lol.

[LordKnightFandragon]

LOL, so TAG was applying to all damage? So you took a TAG, kept it on target and all damage was giving Cbills? Wow lol....

[Mystere]

It's no big loss as I don't use them to earn rewards anyway. I use them to tell my team mates who I want dead.

[Josef Nader]

The problem is that LRMs are terrible, and a fairly niche system, making NARC and TAG earnings reliant on a terrible, fairly niche system.

Sure, there were a few games where I'd hit a target with a NARC and watch as the LRMs blotted out the sun, but those games were few and far between.

NARC's original purpose improved cluster hits on missiles across the board. Technically, shooting SRMs at a NARC'd target should also get a tighter spread, but that's difficult to represent in MWO.

TAG allowed you to spot without taking any penalties, and provided none of the benefits given in MWO.

The simple fact of the matter is that these pieces of equipment have moved beyond their original capacity, and I think we should be encouraging their use in role warfare. Information is ammunition in MWO, and unless you reward someone for playing a scout, only LRM boats are going to bring NARC/TAG.

Again, if you force NARC/TAG to the incredibly niche role of spotting for LRMs, they're going to go back to being worthless again. There was a brief, glorious period where NARC and TAG were part of information warfare, and using them as such paid out really well. Now, we're back to my E-War Raven being exclusively useful in the team cue where I can guarantee my allies bring LRMs, except that LRMs are terrible in the team cue, so it's just plain useless. That bums me out.

Edited by Josef Nader, 04 November 2014 - 11:53 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

LordKnightFandragon, on 04 November 2014 - 11:47 AM, said:

LOL, so TAG was applying to all damage? So you took a TAG, kept it on target and all damage was giving Cbills? Wow lol....

Yeah and these were the same people shouting us down when we were complaining we weren't making crap for c-bills with the new rewards. Sure I could have exploited using a TAG myself but that isn't how I wanted to play the game.

[stjobe]

Alexander MacTaggart, on 04 November 2014 - 11:36 AM, said:

NARC and TAG are systems designed to help missile systems.

Yoseful Mallad, on 04 November 2014 - 11:46 AM, said:

TAG and NARC are meant to be support systems for LRMs and not other weapons.

Well, lore-wise TAG actually does nothing for LRMs (until semi-guided LRMs make their début in 3057); it's a system to increase the accuracy for Arrow IV off-board artillery.

It's not the first lore-violating system PGI has introduced though (*cough* ECM *cough*)...

[GalmOne]

Goodbye sweet 300+k cbills games in my KTX

[Josef Nader]

stjobe, on 04 November 2014 - 11:58 AM, said:

Well, lore-wise TAG actually does nothing for LRMs (until semi-guided LRMs make their début in 3057); it's a system to increase the accuracy for Arrow IV off-board artillery.

It's not the first lore-violating system PGI has introduced though (*cough* ECM *cough*)...

Doesn't even interact with Arrow IV. It's strictly designed to allow a mech to get rid of the +1 penalty for spotting. It literally does nothing else. It doesn't matter if you're spotting for LRMs, Long Toms, Air Strikes, or Arrow IVs. It just removes the penalty.

Viktor Drake, on 04 November 2014 - 11:58 AM, said:

Yeah and these were the same people shouting us down when we were complaining we weren't making crap for c-bills with the new rewards. Sure I could have exploited using a TAG myself but that isn't how I wanted to play the game.

Like I said, I don't care if it doesn't pay out for my own damage. That would stop most of the abusers packing a single TAG onto their Dire Whales so they could rack up C-Bills by shooting at stuff. I'm just bummed that for a brief, glorious moment playing a dedicated scout actually paid out as well as playing a dedicated combat mech, and I was having a lot of fun grinding for C-Bills by using my Raven 3L with a stock weapons/equipment loadout. Now it's just not going to pay out like it used to, and I'm better off playing a regular combat mech again.

[Jetfire]

I am pretty sure breaking ECM with NARC/TAG/UAV is a separate bonus. I have gotten it without ever carrying a NARC or TAG.

[Josef Nader]

It is, but again, the NARC/TAG Kill rewards and the TAG Damage Reward were a big chunk of what made the risk of painting a target worthwhile regardless of what the situation was. Now, if we don't have LRMs, I've wasted 5 tons of my 35 ton mech, and I can get ECCM bonuses by simply bringing ECM. There's no real reason to bring NARC or TAG anymore, again, because it becomes a feast/famine mech, except your feasts don't pay out as well or as often.

[Prezimonto]

Josef Nader, on 04 November 2014 - 11:25 AM, said:

Not gonna lie, I'm actually really disappointed with the reward being restricted to LRM damage only. I can't ensure my teammates bring LRMs in a PUG match, and a mech that could pay out really effectively no matter what the situation before is now entirely reliant on having at least one LRM boat on their team.

It doesn't even effect assaults/heavies that much, as they can pack plenty of backup firepower if that TAG laser gets wasted. I had a blast playing my NARC/TAG/ECM/BAP E-War Raven this past weekend, and a big part of that was being able to get decent rewards even if my team wasn't throwing around LRMs. I didn't feel at a significant disadvantage in combat or with earnings by only bringing an SRM6 and 2 MLas. I had a role, and if I did my role well I got rewarded, same as an assault mech dealing tons of damage. It felt really good.

NARCing or TAGing a target is generally valuable, even if LRMs aren't getting fired at the target, especially if they are under ECM cover. Hitting a target with a NARC pod is always helpful, as it tracks their movement behind cover and broadcasts when they're about to peek, allowing your guys to rip into him. Using TAG to cut through ECM also helps your team out a lot regardless of the situation for much the same reason.

Limiting these rewards to LRM damage alone really cuts back my desire to pack both of them on there. Before, I maximized my reward regardless, and if I had LRM toting teammates, it made their missiles incredibly lethal. Now, I'm really tempted to pack more weapons in case my team doesn't have any boats, as I won't get paid and I'll have to rely on my damage done.

It's just really disappointing. I got to feel what role warfare would feel like, and I had a lot of fun playing a role that wasn't "shoot the robots". Now, I just don't see it being the same.

To be clear, I'm fine with them not rewarding you for your own damage. That's whatever. However, you should get paid for your teams damage/kills regardless of what weapons the enemy mech died to, as you providing that information is helping your team put that damage on the target. I also think you should be rewarded if you land the killing blow on a target you NARC/TAG'd, as otherwise you discourage me shooting at a weak target, and that's screwy.

I wouldn't mind a rule along the lines of:

If the team oriented support equipment piece, or sum of pieces are 10% or more of the total mech tonnage, the mech gains the ability to earn support rewards.

tag: 1 ton
NARC: 3 tons + 1 ton ammo (minimum) = 4 tons
BAP: 1.5 tons
AMS: 0.5 tons + 1 ton ammo (minimum) = 1.5 tons
ECM: 1.5 tons

So a Raven 3L with a TAG, NARC, ECM, BAP(or AMS instead of BAP) dedicates 1+4+1.5+1.5 = 8 tons of 35 = ~23% of tonnage to support gear.

Even a 70 ton mech could pile it ALL on and still earn support rewards, but that still eats a big chunk of their overall build space.

A single TAG might be over stated, even if it is a support item, in terms of needing the support rewards to be competitive.

This way a locust can still pile on AMS and an TAG laser and earn support rewards. Conversely, assaults don't get them.

[Josef Nader]

I wouldn't mind a system like that. The Hellbringer should be able to earn support rewards, as it packs everything on thick, sacrificing a lot of armor to do so, but an Assault mech really shouldn't be trying to earn rewards by scouting targets for his team.

It gave me options for my mechs under 55 tons that they could actually do better than larger mechs, and let me play up their strengths. Playing the shoot-and-scoot NARC assassin was dangerous, fun, and challenging. Sticking close to the enemy lines, evading detection, popping out of cover and hitting them with a signed death warrant was a blast, even when I screwed up and caught a pair of cERPPCs and cGauss to the face.

[stjobe]

Josef Nader, on 04 November 2014 - 12:03 PM, said:

Doesn't even interact with Arrow IV. It's strictly designed to allow a mech to get rid of the +1 penalty for spotting. It literally does nothing else. It doesn't matter if you're spotting for LRMs, Long Toms, Air Strikes, or Arrow IVs. It just removes the penalty.

That's quite the liberal reading of the rules there; TAG only applies to certain weaponry, like Arrow IV and Semi-guided LRMs - not every laser, PPC, and AC you care to throw at the target:


(Tech Manual, p.238)

See the "artillery-spotting laser communications system" and "guidance system of certain friendly artillery warheads and guided bombs" bits? And the special mention of the Raven spotting for Arrow IVs fired from Catapults?

Sorry, but there's just no way TAG is supposed to be applicable to anything and everything.

[SharpCookie]

I tried it out a few times after getting fed up with the rewards 2.0.1 earnings nerf. Previously, you could get 30k on an average game and 60k+ on a good game (without bonuses) per match with tag applied to all damage. Now you will get ~7k CB per LRM kill shot using tag.

Tag/narc should also affect SSRMs in addition to LRMs.

The c-bills from tag damage is pathetically low, insignificant to total earnings, and not worth exposing yourself to fire for 3-5 seconds to hold on target. A test of 400 dmg yielded about 2K CB. However, the LRM kill shot, which is ridiculously hard to pull off without boating dozens of Artemis missiles, is a decent 6K CB.

[Josef Nader]

stjobe, on 04 November 2014 - 12:22 PM, said:

That's quite the liberal reading of the rules there; TAG only applies to certain weaponry, like Arrow IV and Semi-guided LRMs - not every laser, PPC, and AC you care to throw at the target:

See the "artillery-spotting laser communications system" and "guidance system of certain friendly artillery warheads and guided bombs" bits? And the special mention of the Raven spotting for Arrow IVs fired from Catapults?

Sorry, but there's just no way TAG is supposed to be applicable to anything and everything.

Fluff vs Rules. Any unit can spot for Arrow IV. Units with TAG are better at spotting in general, as they don't take penalties for doing so. Either way, you're right that TAG in tabletop doesn't do anything for non IDF weapons.

The problem is that TAG in MWO wouldn't do anything. There are no modifiers to hit, and painting a target with a TAG laser doesn't really make it easier for the spotter to keep doing other stuff. So, we slapped on NARC's missile cluster rule. Then we tacked on that it punches through ECM. It -still- only got used on LRM boats that were TAGing their own targets, not on the dedicated spotter/scouts it was intended for. So, then they beefed up the rewards for it, and all of a sudden a scout could make a lot of bank by doing his job.

I know that it's fluff INTENTION was for LRMs, but relying on the matchmaker to slap you in a match with a dedicated LRM mech, or multiple mechs with smaller racks, much less expecting those pilots to be competent is like trying to pee straight up and not get wet. It's just not a viable role in a randomly generated game, as chances are you won't actually be rewarded for your efforts. By rewarding TAG painting for any damage, I am no longer completely screwed for rewards if the matchmaker didn't arbitrarily slap me in a game with an LRM boat.

Edited by Josef Nader, 04 November 2014 - 12:33 PM.

[DaZur]

Viktor Drake, on 04 November 2014 - 11:58 AM, said:

Yeah and these were the same people shouting us down when we were complaining we weren't making crap for c-bills with the new rewards. Sure I could have exploited using a TAG myself but that isn't how I wanted to play the game.

Not everyone was a TAG/NARC exploiter...

Hell, I've never mounted either one ever!

[Zolaz]

What ... slipshod mechanics and patchwork fixes are upsetting you? Hard to believe. How many patches do you put on a thing before you look at it and say ... I should just get a new one?

[AlmightyAeng]

Josef Nader, on 04 November 2014 - 11:53 AM, said:

The problem is that LRMs are terrible, and a fairly niche system,

Yet they just nerfed their damage...