14 replies to this topic

[Lightfoot]

I like LRMs and I usually use them for long range softening of targets, but never enough to kill mechs. So LRM20-25. This is what most players are doing so nerfing the damage will have no effect since they will always soften up targets at long range.

The problem is that a single Gauss Rifle is useless and PPCs are too slow for long range accuracy, so LRMs are all that is left for long range. However, PPCs and Gauss Rifles counter LRMs when they work. They counter LRM mechs by hitting them first and by filling the load-out space that players who like/need a little long range are currently filling with LRMs.

So, I suggest that mechs who mount just one Gauss Rifle do not have to charge it up and it fires normally, no de-sync. And that PPCs are sped up to functional long range accuracy. Maybe 1300 mps. This would create effective long range alternatives to secondary LRM launchers and fill their space on the mech and more.

MechWarrior players will have long range combat and sometimes must, if their mech is not one of the handful of top brawler mech chassis. LRMs are such weak weapons though, it's hard to believe that they are all that's left for long range countering.

[Pz_DC]

Gauss need delay removed, for sure. And ppc-speed-buff incoming so... We will see will it work or no, since lrms will get nerfed a bit too. You're right, but soon we will be able to check all of those.... excapt gauss...

[Lightfoot]

Yes, need better long range alternatives because some mechs just don't do short range well, but do medium to long range very well. LRMs is all they have to use right now. They are mostly being used as a back-up to wear targets down so nerfing LRMs will have no effect until they no longer function at all. That would be very bad because gameplay would become very dull and repetitious.

[Durant Carlyle]

No and Hell No!

If you cannot use a single Gauss Rifle or current ER/PPCs effectively, that's your problem. There are plenty of pilots that can and do every day. I'm not one of them -- usually I'm on the receiving end. My lights get one-shot legged from across the map often enough already.

[zortesh]

Man i don't know what your smoking that makes you think guass rifles and ppcs are bad but i want some.
Seriously ppcs are still good, guass rifles are the best weapon in the game hands down.... erll is still good standoff weapon at range.

If lrms are killing you at long range your just bad, if someones shooting lrms at you from beyond 600 meters you should be able to break los or find cover before they land... snipers under ecm stomp lrms 9/10 times... its not even a challenge, well less ur playing as the narcer for the lrmboats, or the lrmboats, the sniper under ecm are having a walk in the park.

[Vivicector]

Its LRMs that require changes. The weapon requires no skill from the user to be effective, have very decent damage and DPS, can fire from closed positions without putting user at risk. Well, ok, LRMs have low skill ceiling and are still bad at league matches.

Real problem is the trajectory of LRMs. They fall high from the sky, ignoring a lot of covers. Maps are small, amount decent working covers are small too. Also, target decay mod on LRM bots make them like direct fire on under 800 meters.
Yes, there are counters and things against LRMs. But on pubs, they are too good.

[zortesh]

Vivicector, on 04 November 2014 - 01:19 AM, said:

Its LRMs that require changes. The weapon requires no skill from the user to be effective, have very decent damage and DPS, can fire from closed positions without putting user at risk. Well, ok, LRMs have low skill ceiling and are still bad at league matches.

Real problem is the trajectory of LRMs. They fall high from the sky, ignoring a lot of covers. Maps are small, amount decent working covers are small too. Also, target decay mod on LRM bots make them like direct fire on under 800 meters.
Yes, there are counters and things against LRMs. But on pubs, they are too good.

The skill it takes to use lrms depends on your opponents.... I'd say the damage is okay not good, thou lrmboats do have inflated damage scores by the fact they can't just core someone out and kill them with 1/4th of the damage.

Theres only two maps in mwo that don't have abundant lrm cover ... honestly i dont know why so many people find lrms hard to avoid.

[Vivicector]

zortesh, on 04 November 2014 - 01:38 AM, said:

The skill it takes to use lrms depends on your opponents.... I'd say the damage is okay not good, thou lrmboats do have inflated damage scores by the fact they can't just core someone out and kill them with 1/4th of the damage.

Theres only two maps in mwo that don't have abundant lrm cover ... honestly i dont know why so many people find lrms hard to avoid.

For pubs, non-concentrated damage of LRMs is quite OK, as long as you don't take any yourself. The problem begins, when several LRM boats lock somebody down and put all his armour to red in 1-2 salvos.

Covers... Good LRM cover is the one, where you can survive being NARCed. Mainly, covers are just the size of the mech or a bit bigger. However, the "falling from the sky" trajectory of LRMs require the cover to be around 2x the size of the mech. Now, the cover must have position, that will allow you to shoot enemies. And there should be enough of such cover for the whole team. Not a lot of those on maps.

A weapon can have high damage, may not require skill, may not put user in danger: choose any two. I will judge LRMs as OP as long as I see mindless creatures on their LRM boats mashing 1 button, shooting LRMs into walls in front of them, into hills, on the contact, lost after a second, but still scoring kills in the end.

[Evil Ed]

LRMs are very Elo-depandant. I'm sure every LRM-pilot/group can witness about the horror when they run into a more skilled opponent that knows how to use cover, break locks and use/provide ECM cover. LRMs are very difficult to balance, "OP" in the lower Elo-brackets, pretty much useless in high Elo-brackets. I don't think we ever will see "balanced" LRMs, it's just a question about moving the "balance point" around.

The answer to LRM-problems is as usual:Get the Radar Derp Module, don't move around in the open, when peeking and getting lurmed: don't reverse straight backwards but instead slightly to the side (and lol at the missiles flying by), bring ECM/stay with ECM/bring a faster mech, always keep an eye open for UAVs (really, people at terrible at spotting those).

Edited by Evil Ed, 04 November 2014 - 04:36 AM.

[Pz_DC]

IMHO
problem is not in LRMs itself but in ther use - its ok when we see some of it on any mech, but its not ok when we see 4xLRM15 atlas or highlander etc. Its not fine when team with 2-3-4 LRM-boat face team that have no ecm. So leave LRMs alone and focus on matchmaking balanceand chassis balance - its fine to try different loadouts but its not fine when players make lrm-boat of any mech.

[GentlemanBryan]

What is so difficult about (1) installing AMS, (2) installing radar depravation, (3) staying under ECM cover, (4) staying under terrain cover until in range to alpha with short range weapons, (5) conduct counter fire with own force LRM boats, (6) installing BAP and advanced sensor to spot boats for counter fire.

More importantly join a unit/lance. You will learn a lot about "Situation awareness"

[Lightfoot]

Only two maps favor LRMs and three to four block LRMs and the rest are challenging to LRM usage. So they should not be as widespread as they are in all the mechs, IS and Clan. It is just that they are the only long range weapons left in MWO.

Currently LRMs are unchallenged by other weapons which in Battle Tech would be Gauss Rifles and PPCs and non-duration Lasers (canon TT), but MWO doesn't use those having opted to add their own beam duration component. Right now you just pop over a hill, fire LRMs and dodge any return fire. Gauss Riflers won't get their weapon charged in time and PPCs won't reached the target before it is gone. Once you see what your opponents carry it's a simple matter of crushing 2xGauss boats anyway.

Anyway, expect to see more and more LRM mechs until players are offered a long range weapon that competes at long range because the LRM will always do something at long range while the Gauss Rifle and PPC are only effective on fixed targets or targets with low lateral shifting. It has nothing to do with a lack of skill, the best pilots are also using secondary LRMs for long range back-up because they are the only working long range weapon.

If Gauss Rifles worked you would see them on a lot of mechs, but except for the very rare occurance all Gauss Rifles are used in a 2xGauss config and only 5 MWO mechs can do this. So they certainly do not work since Battle Tech states this is very hard and normally only one Gauss Rifle will be used. The reason 2xGauss only are used in MWO is the de-sync and everyone knows it so remove the de-sync if just one is mounted. This is fair and not a danger to kill a mech in one shot. It does allow players to have some freedom in how they play, but this freedom makes MWO gameplay more compelling.

PPCs are useless at long range unless the target is fixed and are currently normally used by players at 300-350 meters. Your call, but they are no threat to hit a distant LRM mech.

LRMs with no counter except map terrain is what you have now so this is dictating the kinds of maps that are made, like Mining Colony. So it is very bad for the MWO player experience. Mining Colony is like a Quake map with a single terrain type. This is okay, but Battlemechs cover terrain, Recon in Force, Search and Destroy so you want maps that create that type of experience and these will have mixed terrains rather than uniform mazes.

[Telmasa]

ER Large Lasers are working just fine, both clan and IS.


The "problem" with LRMs isn't the LRMs or how they work; it's the inbalance up til today's patch in ECM's over-effectiveness, with the only counters to it basically requiring you to run up and brawl with the ECM mechs in question.


The buffs to BAP, and IS ams ammo, I think will serve to help balance things out in the right way.

Edited by Telmasa, 04 November 2014 - 02:46 PM.

[Kalimaster]

LRMs might not be used as much if they would extend ballistic weapon ranges back out to 3x.

[Strikeshadow]

The problem with LRMs is shared targeting. Remove shared target lock and force the LRM boat to acquire its own line-of-sight lock and presto problem gone.

I do agree that long range weapons are ineffective in MWO, except for the current LRMs. The problem is the modeling. In real life I have no problem hitting a barn with a high-caliber open-sight rifle at 1500 meters. In this game, even with 2x zoom it's hard to do with any of the available long range weapons. In fact, on many maps you can't even see that far away.