32 replies to this topic

[Bilaz]

Kreisel, on 06 November 2014 - 01:01 PM, said:

That could come down to personal play style, do we really want the quirks on the mech to be limited to only one playstyle when the quirks could help that playstyle and every other way to play the mech. The AC20 4ML can stillrun hot right? It USES those 4 ML for a significant portion of it's damage in a brawl. Wouldn't that mech be better off with generic increased ballistic range plus Medium laser Heat reduction and Medium laser Duration?

Just because that is the build that worked for you doesn't mean it's the best build for everyone. Personally I never liked or did well with the AC20 Build on the Dragon. On the other hand one of the best games I have ever played was in a Flame with XL300, 2EL, 2ML, AC2 and SRM4, 17DHS, FF, Endo: 6 Kills, 2 of them earning the Brawler reward, 6 Assists, 8 Competent destructions, ~750 Damage, top damage on my team. I consistently do 350+ damage in it, on a low or bad game I'll still put out around 275 Damage and often pick up a kill even when my team gets 12 to 2 stomped. And that's without Weapon Modules. Based on my play style it's actually one of my favorite mechs to play.

Let me be clear I'm not arguing for changes to the Flame quirks because the one build I personally play doesn't benefit much from these quirks, I'm arguing because almost ever single build you can make with this mech, save one does not benefit from anything more than the CT, ST buffs and and laser duration.

And a side note that side torso buff makes the Flame the MOST XL friendly dragon because it's 6 More damage to that side torso before death than any other Dragon.

If it had even been only one buff to the AC20 I could understand (I'd still be disappointed but feel it was reasonable), but 2/3?

Thats subjective. You can go to your profile on forum - then find stats, then mechs and you'll have data, including total damage dealt and games played - so you can know how this mech perfomes related to other mechs and how accurate your recollections about your perfomance are.

Hard to say from stats how much come from ac and how much from mlaserss - its not that detailed, but generally for 2 damage from ac20 theres 1 damage from all mlasers per match - so making 2 ac20 and 1 mlaser quirk somewhat makes sense. But quirks as they are now - dont really help.
Since last post i playtested it with quirks and i agree that they should be changed, since they dont really help this dragon to pull his own weigh. I thought that maybe more range and speed would help but really they dont change the picture. So yea - would be better if quirks would be different - as for ac20 or not, not as important as end result - more powerfull flame than it currently is. And now its nowhere near that.

Ryokens leap, on 06 November 2014 - 09:33 AM, said:

Agree with OP. I've been squawking for years that an XL Dragon with an AC20 arm is needed. Look how great the YLW is, could have buffed the Fang for this purpose but sadly no.

Well i on the contrary never want ac20 in the arm since its usually low, have converg. issues and much more fragile. dragon have it close to line of sight and quite high - which allows it to peak and shoot from hills, over some obstacles and corners while evading counterfire. So you can soften said YLW while it would have problems hitting you, unless it would charge - and thats even better for you (and your teammates)

[Kreisel]

Bilaz, on 07 November 2014 - 03:25 AM, said:

Thats subjective. You can go to your profile on forum - then find stats, then mechs and you'll have data, including total damage dealt and games played - so you can know how this mech perfomes related to other mechs and how accurate your recollections about your perfomance are.

Hard to say from stats how much come from ac and how much from mlaserss - its not that detailed, but generally for 2 damage from ac20 theres 1 damage from all mlasers per match - so making 2 ac20 and 1 mlaser quirk somewhat makes sense. But quirks as they are now - dont really help.
Since last post i playtested it with quirks and i agree that they should be changed, since they dont really help this dragon to pull his own weigh. I thought that maybe more range and speed would help but really they dont change the picture. So yea - would be better if quirks would be different - as for ac20 or not, not as important as end result - more powerfull flame than it currently is. And now its nowhere near that.


Well i on the contrary never want ac20 in the arm since its usually low, have converg. issues and much more fragile. dragon have it close to line of sight and quite high - which allows it to peak and shoot from hills, over some obstacles and corners while evading counterfire. So you can soften said YLW while it would have problems hitting you, unless it would charge - and thats even better for you (and your teammates)

Of course it is subjective, it was meant to make the point a single players experience is anecdotal evidence. I'm aware of my profile stats but they aren't very useful in judging a single Flame build effectiveness vs another due to the fact I've mixed up my build a lot, I have tried the Stock build, the AC20 build, the 4 LL build, the 4MPL & ac10 build, switched it to an UAC5 and a normal AC5 to add an SRM, and finally settled on the build I use now. Experimented with the stock engine, an XL300, an XL325 and an XL350... Sure I can look at my archived stats and my current stats and say truthfully with stats and evidence my Win/Loss ratio has doubled, my K/dr has tippled and my average damage per game is 100 points higher... BUT the old stats include the games to master the mech, they include playing while the cockpit camera was glitched on the dragon and wouldn't turn all the way once you had it mastered so the arms would go entirely offscreen and the torso crosshairs wouldn't center when you twisted all the way, they also include the time I was playing on a laptop that couldn't really handle the game and would sometimes have framerates as low as 10, the stats don't account for disconnects or crashes.... plus I'm just one player saying that my stats are better for switching to this build doesn't really mean anything for the population of Dragons as a whole.

You make a good point about the end result being that the Flame needs to be able to pull it's own weight, and I agree, if that means an AC20 buff I can accept that, it wont help me much because that play style doesn't work for me personally with this mech. But I can accept it as part of overall buffs that make the Flame powerful enough to compete on a more even scale. I just hope those buff are such that they apply to a variety of builds.

Also I agree that a Dragon with an AC20 arm isn't helpful or useful at all... the loss of the lower arm articulator in order to fit an AC20 means a loss of lateral arm movement... (see every mech with an AC20 in it's arm that can only aim up and down) which would totally kill the Dragon. Such a dragon wouldn't play like a dragon and would be a sitting duck for having to always having to expose it's massive torso to a target to shoot. As pointed out the geometry and firing angels for the Dragons arms are also not well suited for an AC20. We don't have the YLW ability to to fire and twist away to shield with a weaponless arm that protects the rest of the body rather well, doing so instead opens up that side torso that our XP engine is in...

[Diablo Intercepter]

I really wish that they had given buffs similar to the K2. The ballistic quark is useful with every build. I assume they realized that most K2 builds use 4 medium lasers, so they added an extra quirk just for mediums. Most of the builds that are strikers (which is what I think most people have been using it as) use either 4 medium lasers or 4 medium pulse lasers. The ac 20 build also uses medium lasers, so that specific build would still get a use from the quirk in addition to the added LT structure. I really wish they had given any of the Dragons a medium laser buff, and seeing how many builds people seem to use in their flame builds I think a medium laser quirk makes sense (it would also make sense for the Fang I guess).

[Sylow]

Aye. Save the flame, give it reasonable quirks, please. I mean, the quirk selection on all dragons is suboptimal (why does -every-single-one- have an ER large quirk? Do you hate the mech that much or did you just not bother? ) but this one is a completely shame. The others can at least be salvaged to use the AC quirks, but this one is dead in the water and urgently needs revival. Please!

[Sgt Helmet]

So far only DRG variant that could be used in any comp is 1N ac5 build as fire support. In my opinion that is.

There just are too many better options for heavy brawler role: CTF or ON1.

Even if there was a tonnage limit that made a DRG must go mech Flame would not be 1st option.

I've played Flame solely as a sniper with left sided Gauss/2xERLL build. It has excellent hardpoints for that build. You can fit big enough engine to keep good distance and get into position with it. Now the 1C has the quirks for that build, but it has inferior hardpoint setup: RA gauss, LT erlls. So you have to be fully visible in order to alpha.

So what happened with the quirks was that Flame pretty much is on par with 1C, because it has better survivability with the HP setup. Thus negating 1C quirks as a sniper and emphasising 5N and 1N right sided dakka.

Fang has the same issue with the quirked build that AC10 is on the other side and LPLs are on the other. So if fighting smartly you can never alpha effectively.

I have to admit that I haven't ran Flame or 1C nearly as much as before the quirks, as 1N is clearly the goto mech.

So overall I still think Flame has it's spot as a fast heavy sniper (IS builds). Competiting with gauss-JM / gauss-3D. It is slightly below them, but has good hardpoints compared to other 2. It would be pretty awesome, if it had received the 1C quirks. At least here would be one happy helmet...

Edited by Sgt Helmet, 12 November 2014 - 12:12 AM.

[Naqel]

I find it outright ******** that the one Dragon with an actual Laser focus(mounting a Large Laser instead of an Auto-Cannon), got quirks that do not support Laser based play.

Whoever decided on the quirk lists is completely disconnected from not only gameplay, but also lore.

[Malckovich]

I figured out the issue, The Fang and Flame have the quirks swapped. The current Fang quirks were designed and intended for the Flame, and vice versa. We need to get this fixed ASAP.

Edit: I forgot Fang is 1 slot short of putting the AC20 in the arm, another change that would be welcome. Oh well, guess we have what we have.

Edited by Malckovich, 14 November 2014 - 01:57 PM.

[Outlaw]

Naqel, on 12 November 2014 - 10:59 PM, said:

I find it outright ******** that the one Dragon with an actual Laser focus(mounting a Large Laser instead of an Auto-Cannon), got quirks that do not support Laser based play.

Whoever decided on the quirk lists is completely disconnected from not only gameplay, but also lore.

Thats funny, because all of the Dragons were AC based, further more NONE of them carried Large Lasers at all. Personally I never ran the Flame with anything other than AC20, 4 ML. Honestly what do you guys want another Cookie Cutter quirk build or is this just a QQ i didnt get what i want so im going to whine and complain until it gets changed and ruins it for the people who ran it as the quirks suggest even BEFORE the quirks were added?

Also since when is 85 KPH slow?

Edited by Outlaw, 14 November 2014 - 10:41 AM.

[Skribs]

I think the quirks need to be more generic.

That said, I can UNDERSTAND why the Flame got AC20 (being the only dragon that can) even if I don't like it.

[Sylow]

Outlaw, on 14 November 2014 - 10:36 AM, said:

Thats funny, because all of the Dragons were AC based, further more NONE of them carried Large Lasers at all. Personally I never ran the Flame with anything other than AC20, 4 ML. Honestly what do you guys want another Cookie Cutter quirk build or is this just a QQ i didnt get what i want so im going to whine and complain until it gets changed and ruins it for the people who ran it as the quirks suggest even BEFORE the quirks were added?

Also since when is 85 KPH slow?

1. While there are a few people who ran it the way with the AC20, most setups were different. (See list on the first page. ) So, you are happy that you by pure chance got support, most just feel screwed over.
2. All the so-called "cookie cutter quirks" are an actual improvement for the mech. The quirks the dragons got are way less helpful than on most other mechs. And if so many other designs get significant upgrades then the bad upgrades of the Dragon are effectively a noticeable nerf. Considering that the Dragon wasn't a well renowned design before the quirks were implemented i consider this a really bad move.

3. Yes, forcing a Dragon to use a standard engine is making it comparatively slow or lacking in other aspects. One of the few advantages the Dragon fields is that it very much supports the XL engine, as the CT takes so much damage, anyway.

So all in all, the Flame really needs those "more generic" quirks. In case of doubt, i would drop the AC20 quirks and put in medium laser quirks. That would benefit more Flame designs than any other quirk, so i think it would be the most useful selection.

[TDN Dreadnaught]

I'd like to see a better generic balistic buff on the Flame. Even with the added buffs to the CT and STs the mech is still a big wide target. It's greatest advantage a good pilot will employ is it's remarkable speed and manuverability(for a heavy). I run an LB10, 1 ERLL and 2MLs. Its lean, never overheats and always gets the first and last shot before I get the heck outta there at 95 kph. I own every dragon. The 5N was the first heavy mech I owned transitioning from mediums precisely because I was attracted to the similar feel and speed. That was back in beta. And 1100 total dragon drops later I routinely turn to my Dragons when Im in a bad run. It's a fun mech to deploy in and on other variants I have been extremely effective in this chassis for the first time since the Clan arrival. They aren't great but I've always said if you treat it like a big medium mech you'll get the most out of it. There are better platforms for an AC20 build. If you do well with that playstyle on the Flame then you'd fare better in other mechs. Bottom line. However, its not about the viability of the platform or what is the best build. The quirks on this mech are only good if you run the AC20 and stack the 7.5% generic balistic buffs on the AC20 7.5% buffs. And it's still a mediocre boon as the AC20 range is poor so the % increase is marginal and at 270 meters the velocity is a joke, at 270 meters it could get lobbed in like a softball and you better still hit something. Probably a Dragon CT.... Sry. My point is that generic buffs let you build the mech you want. A lot of the quirks are good enough in other mechs you don't need to maximize them to see an improvemnt viable enough in your build to shake the rust off. Like my AWS. I don't use PPCs...ever. So all the PPC buffs on my 9M are wasted on that mech. But the heat gen, duration reduction and cooldown still make it dangerous. Customized. Mine. Here, you are pigeon holed. I don't want to see this game lose the creativity inhereit in building your own mech. Sure you can google how someone else builds theirs and copy them if thats your fancy(I refuse, if Im not smart enough to build it myself then I don't deserve the success in running it) Bump the generic balisitic quirks to 15% Dump the AC20 specific quirks and let people build what they want.

[Kreisel]

I'd like to point out even the AC20 build runs 4 Med-Lasers.
Medium lasers do 5 damage.
5x4=20
AC20 Flame's 4 Medium lasers do as much damage as it's AC20 at the same range.
It might not be pinpoint, but it requires no ammo and those arms make it difficult to escape them in a brawl.

So theoretically a medium laser buff would help the Flame as much or more than the AC20 buffs (which AC20 pilots feel are underwhelming anyway).

Personally I'd suggest: Generic Ballistic range, Medium Laser Duration, Medium Laser Heat Generation.
This would make the AC20 Flame stronger than it currently is AND apply buffs to every other build you can make with a flame.

[Tastian]

THANK YOU PGI for the Flame Quirk change.