8 replies to this topic

[9erRed]

Greetings all,

Currently the game has a standard sensor range of 800mtrs, this can be extended to 1000mtrs with advanced modules and pushed even further with the BAP added, bringing your detection range to 1250mtrs.

- Now just what are the sensors detecting?
- Normally other sensor systems actively searching for targets.

So I propose that we have two sensor modes;

1. Active sensors, normal systems as we have now.
- sensors active and producing detectable emissions.
- all weapons and systems function normally. (what we have now)

2. Passive sensors, reduced range and only 'listening' for active systems.
- sensor range reduced, but provides a reduced signature for being detected.
- in this mode your weapons do not have 'lock-on' ability.
- all targeting systems are off, indicated distances not functional in this mode.
- detection of Enemy active systems reduced to 250mtrs, but other passive sensors still work, 'seismic sensor still functional when stopped'

This allows for operating in normal active mode but also gives the Plot the ability to 'drop off' the Enemies sensor threat 'radar' at maximum range. If the Enemy was physically seen, this could be a new method to silently approach the last location of detection.
- this passive mode would also negate any Enemy long range missile lock-on's, but the Pilot would also lose his targeting systems while in this mode of operation.
- Enemy TAG would still work, but need to be constantly held on the target or lose it's lock.

With the new changes to BAP, this 'passive' system can be detected. Another reason for mounting that specific sensor. But having a method to reduce your emissions could be the difference between who see's whom first, and not the directional active 'pinging' we have now.
- Tactics and movement become key to the stealthy Pilot, when to use the passive or active systems now becomes a tool of warfare.

Just some ideas,
9erRed

[Strikeshadow]

They had this option in MW4.

[Kreisel]

I'm for the general idea. It would be an interesting system, but this feels too extreme in how much you are suggesting it cut sensor range by. There have been several proposals for Active/Passive sensors already and I think I liked some of the other ways it's been suggested better.

Also the "this passive mode would also negate any Enemy long range missile lock-on's, but the Pilot would also lose his targeting systems while in this mode of operation." Feels like it would just be used for abusive LRM play, run active all the time until you get the incoming missiles message then just go sensors passive. It gives everyone a personal ECM... It's bad enough for LRM users that it's entirely possible for your weapon system to be negated into uselessness as things are now.

I'm also leery about the can not get missile locks while in it aspect. While to a certain degree it makes sense lore wise, I'm concerned from a balance standpoint that if every weapon system save once can still be used sneaking around the battlefield in passive sensor mode it is going to massively unfair to those mechs which that is the primary role of.

Honestly, the line-of-sight only sensors we have already feel kinda like they are passive mode to me, for an active mode I'd be tempted to see something like seismic pings, being able to detect the location of other mechs with active sensors on the other side of walls. I.e it sends out a pulse that produces detectable emissions in order to locate other sources of those similar sensor emissions. Like having seismic sensor that you could turn off so you don't show up on the other teams seismic. Also could make ECM, BAP and command consul tie in. BAP could increase the range of your detection and ECM could create a bubble where active sensors can't see anything... but the bubble itself is visible (i.e the same way ECM is described on table top). Command Consul could perhaps share your active sensor returns with your allies or perhaps the active mode is only in a forward cone normally but the command consul made it a 360 effect.

Edited by Kreisel, 06 November 2014 - 03:04 AM.

[General Taskeen]

Kreisel, on 06 November 2014 - 02:52 AM, said:

I'm for the general idea. It would be an interesting system, but this feels too extreme in how much you are suggesting it cut sensor range by. There have been several proposals for Active/Passive sensors already and I think I liked some of the other ways it's been suggested better.

Also the "this passive mode would also negate any Enemy long range missile lock-on's, but the Pilot would also lose his targeting systems while in this mode of operation." Feels like it would just be used for abusive LRM play, run active all the time until you get the incoming missiles message then just go sensors passive. It gives everyone a personal ECM...

That's actually not what they are saying. The ideas in the OP I recognize from a couple games, one of them is MW:LL and possibly MW4 and the earlier ones.

Edit: After reading OP more closely, I guess that is what he is saying is not really the proper "passive" functions, which does not negate targeting from happening.

The situation goes like this:

Mech A - Is firing LRMs at a Mech it sees in LOS. This Mech is in "Active" and can see any other Mechs on a radar display that are also in "Active", the radar will also display dots on it through terrain.
Mech B - Is getting fired at by LRMs from Mech A. Mech B attempts to go Passive, which ides him from radar displays only, but does not prevent targeting from happening. In other words, as long as Mech A still sees Mech B, Mech A is still getting a lock tone when they move their cursor over the target, even if they are getting no additional targeting information (Mech type, etc.)

Mech B is hiding itself from other Mechs that are using Active Radar, so only Mech A is aware of its exact location since it can be seen in LOS.

Also LRMs can be fired at targets UNSEEN (not in LOS) only if the target itself is painting by TAG or has been NARC'ed, regardless if target is Active or Passive. In MWO they got this wrong where you can be targeting someone with NO additional equipment and others can still fire at your target even if they do not see it, which causes the imbalance of "lrm rain."

All of these are fundamental things that have existed in previous games for proper balance.

Radar of course referring to the display at the bottom:

Edited by General Taskeen, 06 November 2014 - 10:48 AM.

[9erRed]

Greetings all,

Yes, the original option of reducing the target locking mechanism may have been a bit over zealous.

- But I was looking for a method the Pilot could use, that does not include ECM, as a means of 'reducing' the Mech's active and detectable signature.
(and yes, the idea was from MW:LL testing and older MW games, and it worked great there.)
- Electronic signature being the key idea here, heat is another whole matter and not part of this proposal.

~ From the Lore, each Mech has multiple scanning sensor types that are always active, some part of the collision avoidance system, others linked to the targeting computer and systems, others just environmental sensors. All this, plus the 'Active detection elements' that are always scanning are some of the items I would propose to reduce the range on.

What we have in-game now is a forward arc detection for the Mech's sensors. Unless you mount additional modules for other angles or longer range. This would not change, but the minimum detection of 800mtrs would. Reducing your Mech's signature would need the Enemy to be closer to default detect you. Other sensors may negate this, the new changes to BAP possibly.
- But the idea is still proposed, normal active and passive sensor ranges.

Side note here:
There are still a few ideas for sensors, from PGI, that we have not heard much about recently. They had mentioned the 'magnetic scan' sensor as a future item to model in, capable of 'looking through structures or terrain' for mass's of concentrated metal. Nothing mentioned in over a year about it.

9erRed

Edited by 9erRed, 10 November 2014 - 01:37 AM.

[Shae Starfyre]

I love the idea of more depth like this, but I feel it is lost on this game...

This game is too fast, the maps are too small, to really take advantage of this; too much run and gun.

If mechs were 30% slower, maps were 100%-200% larger, and other electronic warfare items were reconfigured, and perhaps rate of fire. I could see these kinds of cat-and-mouse ECM/ECCM battles having an effect.

Back to Battlefield Mech Online.

[Strikeshadow]

ECM is simply unrealistic as it stands. If a 30 ton piece of metal is within 1000m of a radar, it will be detected or the operator will know the radar is being jammed. In other words, his entire radar screen will go fuzzy. Radar is directional, but mechs had 360 degree radar.

These light mechs sneaking up behind somebody 20m away is unrealistic. After all, they do make noise!

Edited by Strikeshadow, 10 November 2014 - 12:02 PM.

[9erRed]

Greetings all,

Reference the ECM and Electronic Battlefield.

In this timeline, the majority of battlefields are flooded with electrical jamming and counter systems, high/low band systems, multispectral scanners, targeting systems, comms and narrow band laser signals, all competing for some operational spectrum to complete there function. This and the normal sensor systems that each Mech has for actually operating and moving, from collision avoidance scanners to wind, temperature, and atmospheric analysis. (all from Lore references)

Within the game we operate the Mech's with a forward looking, rather narrow band of a scanner. This is the standard battlefield system for Mech's in general, forgoing the 'Omni-directional systems' for somewhat cleaner and more powerful one directional forward systems. It starts with a normal 800meter detection value but can be 'enhanced' to 1000meters with the 'advanced' system module. Add in the secondary system of the BAP and this 'boosts' that forward scanner to 1250meters. (more now with BAP range boosted)

- Are there drawbacks? Yes, the Pilot now looses the 'all around' scanning of the past games with 360degree sensor sweeps.
- Are we missing something within the game that should be there? Yes, the Pilots ability to actually 'SEE' all around his Mech and negate the 'sneaky' Mech walking up behind him.
(from Lore the Mech Pilot had a wide view screen view in front of him that was 360degrees compressed down, literally could see behind himself)

An Aside:
I'm thinking that the only way PGI could use that reference view is to 'unlock' the main Pilots view and when there is a free view 'head-turn', that is the main sight line that the Pilot see's. Basically 'looking through' his Mech as if using surface mounted cameras, and giving all Pilots the ability to look behind themselves. (this solves many of the multiple view angles CryEngine has difficulty with, rendering two complete views. But suddenly gives the Pilot a 'rear view' option.) Again, Lore related Pilots viewing option.
- Most Mech cockpits have two large monitors on each side of the Pilot, originally these were 'vision' monitors for left and right views. Images of areas seen 'through' the interfering Mech chassis and providing additional awareness of flank areas. (from reference images of the first cockpit images of the 'Hunchback'.)
- For some reason PGI never implemented these added views, and now we have some very narrow view cockpit Mechs.

Ok, back on the sensors topic,
- There should still be adjustments the Pilot can make to narrow or wide scan his sensors, each provides changes that alter what distance can be actively searched and detected in.
- This goes hand in hand with Active and Passive sensors.
(from way back in 2012 IGP and PGI stated the 'Passive' sensors were in discussion, so this is not a new subject for them now.)

Side note for Strike: Having operated in tanks, I can tell you that the noise level while in the field is enough that you don't even hear another tank pulling up beside you. You more likely feel it through the ground and tank than hear it first. (depending on terrain) So, no, you'll probably not hear that light 35 ton Mech walking up behind you. Because you know, 'It's in sneaky mode'.

Just some info,
9erRed

Edited by 9erRed, 14 November 2014 - 12:33 PM.

[Omi_]

I'm for active/passive radar, if only because it softens ECM a bit by giving everybody a basic taste of electronic warfare. Everyone gets a radar tool.

I'm not saying passive radar needs to be balanced as 1/2 way ECM, but I'm pretty sure a more generic inclusion to information warfare would be well-received.