19 replies to this topic

[Davegt27]

When my Mech auto shut down because of heat my Mech registers damage

This is wrong or should be wrong

The whole purpose of the auto shut down is to protect the Mech from damage
Otherwise why have

Now if you by pass this protection feature when you hit override then the damage should come



Davegt27

[Gamuray]

Damage only occurs for very high heat shutdowns. If you've ever just barely shutdown, you'll notice that you don't take damage. Damage is only for when you shut down with an abundance of excess heat.

[Garandos]

There is one mistake in your considerations OP,

Auto Shutdown is supposed to shut down the mech as soon as you hit a certain treshold of heat, lets say you are at 90% heat and you add another 10% then auto shutdown would trigger, now damage would happen, because you are at 100%

But(!) If you go above the save operation parameters, lets say you are at 99% and add another 30% heat, auto shutdown triggers aswell BUT you recieve damage rightfully, because you went above the safe limits allready.

[Rushin Roulette]

Actually, the Autoshutdown only prevents you from making even more heat for the mech to get rid of. Any heat which you already have does not magically dissapear. it still has to be reduced by teh overworked heatskinks and any damage incurred due to excessive heat will still happen.

[The Great Unwashed]

Would like your mech to shut down when it generates enough heat to not damage itself? If so, why would it shut down at all?

[Davegt27]

I spent over 30 years in the Military working Fire control, Avionics, computerized test stands
Thermal shut down is to prevent damage to equipment

If it does not prevent damage then it is useless

The idea of Mechs is supposed to have some type of reactor and again if it thermal shuts down after damage then it useless

Could you imagine a nuclear reactor that shuts down after damage?
That would mean you would have to take it out of service to repair the damage so your auto shut down did not help you

This is also the principle behind circuit breakers and fuses

Now weapons damage (from heat) or you by passing the system protection that would be different


davegt27

[The Great Unwashed]

But I suppose nuclear reactions do not suffer from instantaneous peak heat loads, as does the mech when it sevely overloads its heat systems and has to dissipate reactor and weapons heat. I can image that a nuclear reaction might be quite damaged if you do that as well? As this is really a heat matter you cannot add a fuse? (Thinking out loud).

[Martin Oberhofer]

I ask a different question.

Schould my 6PPC Stalker @90% Heat Alpha-Strike someone and take no damage from shutdown?
I dont think that would be a great idea.




Right, a protection schould prevent damage.
So, an intelligent sys would not let you fire this last PPC that lets you overheat -> that would take out some of the cleverness needed in mwo and people would complain about why their weapons wont fire....

shutdown and shutdown damage is fine

Edited by Martin Oberhofer, 06 November 2014 - 02:14 AM.

[Tarogato]

I don't like taking damage from shutdown either, but it makes sense. 100% is the threshold where the high temperature starts cooking your internals (be it computers, structure, whathaveyou). As you spend time over the 100% threshold, you take damage. If you only go over a couple degrees, you won't notice the damage, but if you fire an alpha that lands you at 130%, you're darn right you're taking constant damage until it dissipates to 99% again.

If you ask me the auto shut down should engage earlier, maybe at 95%, so you have to make tactical overrides more often. Because right now the override feature is completely and utterly useless. As soon as you press engage it, you die from overheating. Immediately. Like... every time. Because the threshold is at 100%, which is NOT safe, but it gives the illusion of being safe.

[kingalbertII]

the emergency shutdown i believe is to utterly minimize heat generation by shutting down all systems, bringing heat production to 0. this makes you get rid of heat safer and faster

if you go over 100%, your mech has reached such temperatures hyou are simply frying your systems and melts your armor. if you have a max temperature you can handle and go over it, you'll take damage anyway, no matter if you shut down or not.

[The Massive]

Damage after shut down makes sense if you're in the 90%s and add a big heat spike.

Don't demand new game mechanics just because you can't manage heat. Everyone else seems fine with it.

[Strikeshadow]

The Op is looking at the game in a realistic simulator fashion, the rest of you are looking at this from a game perspective. The real question is whether we want a simulator realistic game or just shooter game.

Edited by Strikeshadow, 06 November 2014 - 09:08 AM.

[Egomane]

Strikeshadow, on 06 November 2014 - 09:08 AM, said:

The Op is looking at the game in a realistic simulator fashion, the rest of you are looking at this from a game perspective. The real question is whether we want a simulator realistic game or just shooter game.

He does, but he is forgetting that a system that would prevent damage through excess heat, would also prevent him from generating this excess heat if it would damage the component, even when it's shut down to cool of.

From what I am reading (and I might be wrong): He wants to fire his alpha at 99 % heat, shut down until he is below 100 % again, without consequence to his mech.

With a system that would prevent internal damage from overheat, he would not be able to fire that alpha strike. The system wouldn't let him as it would calculate catastrophic system failure and damage to it's own components. At best he could fire a partial alpha, at worst he can't fire at all.

There is a safe spot in overheat. If you cool down fast enough, you do not damage yourself already.
Try it... bring your mech barely over 100 % and witness it shutting down, only to come back online without damage to it's internal components. Raise that heat little by little and you will notice that the internal damage will only start to happen at a noticable amount beyond 100 %.

Edited by Egomane, 06 November 2014 - 09:29 AM.

[Nightmare1]

Avoiding damage during overheat is pretty simple overall. Just don't alpha when you are on the verge of shutdown.

really, once you hit 90% on your heat scale, you should stop firing weapons simultaneously and fire them consecutively while monitoring your heat curve. When it hits 95%, DO NOT FIRE AGAIN. If you do, you will probably shut down without damage, but of course, your enemy is free to pound you during this time period.

As you become a better pilot and gunner and gain familiarity with the game, you can push the envelope further. I know my Mechs pretty well and am comfortable pushing them to a 98% heat curve regularly when in an intense brawl without the option of exiting combat to cool. That's one reason why I like to run a Cool Shot 9x9; those things are lifesavers if you find yourself in a multi-Mech brawl and don't have time to let your Mech cool down.

[kingalbertII]

Egomane, on 06 November 2014 - 09:29 AM, said:

He does, but he is forgetting that a system that would prevent damage through excess heat, would also prevent him from generating this excess heat if it would damage the component, even when it's shut down to cool of.

From what I am reading (and I might be wrong): He wants to fire his alpha at 99 % heat, shut down until he is below 100 % again, without consequence to his mech.

With a system that would prevent internal damage from overheat, he would not be able to fire that alpha strike. The system wouldn't let him as it would calculate catastrophic system failure and damage to it's own components. At best he could fire a partial alpha, at worst he can't fire at all.

There is a safe spot in overheat. If you cool down fast enough, you do not damage yourself already.
Try it... bring your mech barely over 100 % and witness it shutting down, only to come back online without damage to it's internal components. Raise that heat little by little and you will notice that the internal damage will only start to happen at a noticable amount beyond 100 %.

i think its up to 103 or 105% or so until you start to melt

[Danghen Woolf]

I think it would be interesting to introduce a mechanic that would add a 10% cumulative chance for random critical hits for each 10% over the heat threshhold until it reaches 100% This could be timed so that mechs that can sink the heat faster. TT does this with the ammunition explosion chances and heat sink failure potential of the extended heat scales and optional rules.

So the 6 ERPPC STK alphas and takes itself to 140% heat, shuts down, it can sink the extra 40% heat in 30 seconds. As soon as the heat hit 110% there was a 10% chance for random crits based on critable items (ammo, weapons, heatsinks, etc; based on current numbers 58/25/14/3), at 120% a 20% chance etc. This could simulate damage to components and reduce the mechs effective fighting ability without downright destroying it. This check could be made every 15 - 20 seconds or a one time check for each 10%.

Overheating would then be defensively bad but offensively carry some potential for badness as well. Theoretically Mr. Alpha strike could loose several heatsinks and ERPPCs if the RNG does not like them today.

[Burktross]

It does prevent damage. 130% heat will yellow your torso.

Have you ever tried overriding?
You might aswell rip off one of your shoulders.

It helps, but it isn't 100% efficient.

[Strikeshadow]

From a realistic standpoint, if the reactor overheated it would simply explode regardless of shutdown. In MW4 if you fired a hot enough alpha you woud simply explode and not shutdown at all. However, if you didn't breach the reactor, you would suffer no damage, which is realistic.

The idea of suffering external armor damage from a hot reactor simply doesn't correspond to the physics (not that I'm a nuclear physicist, but this is basic physics and I do have an associates in science). If the reactor becomes too hot, then it'll release radiation that would scramble electrical systems and roast the pilot - eventually the reactor would explode. Until the explosion, the damage would only be caused by released radiation. According to BT lore, Mechs and pilots were shielded against radiation damage.

In other words, heat should cause an explosion, roast the pilot or do no damage. The OP has the right idea for a shutdown / over-ride system. If firing a weapon would cause an explosion, then the shutdown system would prevent that weapon from firing - unless the pilot used the over-ride.

Edited by Strikeshadow, 12 November 2014 - 07:47 AM.

[Egomane]

Strikeshadow, on 12 November 2014 - 07:01 AM, said:

From a realistic standpoint, if the reactor overheated it would simply explode regardless of shutdown. In MW4 if you fired a hot enough alpha you woud simply explode and not shutdown at all. However, if you didn't breach the reactor, you would suffer no damage, which is realistic.

The idea of suffering external armor damage from a hot reactor simply doesn't correspond to the physics (not that I'm a nuclear physicist, but this is basic physics and I do have an associates in science). If the reactor becomes too hot, then it'll release radiation that would scramble electrical systems and roast the pilot - eventually the reactor would explode. Until the explosion, the damage would only caused by released radiation. According to BT lore, Mechs and pilots were shielded against radiation damage.

In other words, heat should cause an explosion, roast the pilot or do no damage.

We do not use nuclear reactors in our mechs, instead mechs run with fusion reactors. You might want to look in the difference between the two consepts. There should be no hard radiation or explosion with fusion. All there is, is heat. A lot of heat! Enough heat to melt internal components, if the shutdown safeties are disabled.

Yes, that would probably roast a pilot as well, but we do not know how the cooling of those things actually work (science fiction, remember?) and there might be priority cooling system to protect the pilots life.

[Strikeshadow]

Egomane, on 12 November 2014 - 07:15 AM, said:

We do not use nuclear reactors in our mechs, instead mechs run with fusion reactors. You might want to look in the difference between the two consepts. There should be no hard radiation or explosion with fusion. All there is, is heat. A lot of heat! Enough heat to melt internal components, if the shutdown safeties are disabled.

Yes, that would probably roast a pilot as well, but we do not know how the cooling of those things actually work (science fiction, remember?) and there might be priority cooling system to protect the pilots life.

Well controlled nuclear fusion (instead of fission) has never been done - at least that I know. I guess we'll have to trust the BT guys on how it'd work. I can understand it melting internal components, but not external armor.