17 replies to this topic

[Valcoer]

The entire quirk system has been developed on the premise that Inner sphere mechs need to be mre competitive against Clan mechs. According to the developer VLog, they based the quirks on the feedback of competitive units. I believe this was a mistake. What I am seeing is that the casual player is at a much greater disadvantage than ever before. Not only does the casual player now face Clan mechs that are superior in design and equipment they must also face inner sphere competition mechs that are being bolstered by the idea that their mechs need a buff against clan mechs. so what happens when a casual player in an IS mech faces a competitive mech that has been buffed to go against clan mechs? The casual players mech Is at a severe disadvantage.

These quirks have been designed to give competition players a boost. A boost that competitive players do not need. It is designed so that more competitive players will use the inner sphere mechs more often instead of only using Clan mechs. The quirk system was suppose to level the playing field between Clan mechs and Inner Sphere mechs but all it has done is provide a greater advantage to the min/ maxing of competitive players over the casual play style of less competitive players.

therefore It is my contention that the wrong approach has been taken and the entire quirk system needs to be rethought. It would have made more sense to have nerfed the clan mechs with negative quirks than to buff the inner sphere mechs with quirks that only benefit competitive players.

The development team recognized that a level playing field did not exist between clan and inner sphere mechs and that a level playing field was the goal so that players skill was the deciding factor in matches not technology. Even so the result has been to widen the gap between competitive players play style and casual players play style. Hence discouraging the casual players from playing at all as opposed to making it easier for them to compete with players who are given every advantage when It comes to the load outs of their mechs.

[p4r4g0n]

I fail to see how the quirks only benefit competitive players.

Are casual players somehow prevented from using these quirks? If you meant that it adds another layer of complexity which makes it more difficult for new players to pick up, then you may possibly have a point.

Please clarify.

[Greziz]

The quirks are a great step in creating a larger diversity of mechs on the battlefield and if very refreshing.

That said the quirks do not widen the gap of casual vs competitive so much as GREATLY ENCOURAGE the casuals to build a mech that doesn't choke down phallic objects. Hmmmm this mech is quirked to use ac20 and medium lazers and brawl? Better put on small pulses and a ac5 and ac2? seriously some casual players look like they might be closing their eyes when building their mechs.

[DjPush]

The quirks system is probably based on more than what competitive players are telling PGI to make for each mech. You have to remember that PGI is gearing up for community warfare which will be 12 V 12 not 10 V 12. Also they have done several runs of IS v Clan matches and may have based their decisions on those results. They probably came to the conclusion that IS mechs needed a buff. Remember that the last 2 years have been a constant neutering of IS weapons to fight other IS mechs. Now that the Clan mechs are here IS weapons need to be un-fracked (to borrow a term) to keep them viable in the games future. If you want to have CW, you need a reason for players to want to play both sides. It has only been 2 days since the patch and I would suggest waiting to see what PGI has in store.

Furthermore, module slots and mech perks seem like an attempt to make players think more about "role warfare." These options give players a broader range of possible mech load outs and functionality. They are obviously trying to improve the game and I think people need wait more than 2 days before posting things like this.

[EVA1313]

I think that you are looking at the Quirks the wrong way. The goal is not to make a mech "more competitive" as a single goal but to get more mechs out there. All changes are to the game can be exploited and then we adapt to them.
I see the Goal of Quirks to help bring out those less used mech (the locust for example) and make them Viable if not competitive.

[Peiper]

Valcoer, on 06 November 2014 - 02:10 PM, said:

The entire quirk system has been developed on the premise that Inner sphere mechs need to be mre competitive against Clan mechs. According to the developer VLog, they based the quirks on the feedback of competitive units. I believe this was a mistake. What I am seeing is that the casual player is at a much greater disadvantage than ever before. Not only does the casual player now face Clan mechs that are superior in design and equipment they must also face inner sphere competition mechs that are being bolstered by the idea that their mechs need a buff against clan mechs. so what happens when a casual player in an IS mech faces a competitive mech that has been buffed to go against clan mechs? The casual players mech Is at a severe disadvantage.

These quirks have been designed to give competition players a boost. A boost that competitive players do not need. It is designed so that more competitive players will use the inner sphere mechs more often instead of only using Clan mechs. The quirk system was suppose to level the playing field between Clan mechs and Inner Sphere mechs but all it has done is provide a greater advantage to the min/ maxing of competitive players over the casual play style of less competitive players.

therefore It is my contention that the wrong approach has been taken and the entire quirk system needs to be rethought. It would have made more sense to have nerfed the clan mechs with negative quirks than to buff the inner sphere mechs with quirks that only benefit competitive players.

The development team recognized that a level playing field did not exist between clan and inner sphere mechs and that a level playing field was the goal so that players skill was the deciding factor in matches not technology. Even so the result has been to widen the gap between competitive players play style and casual players play style. Hence discouraging the casual players from playing at all as opposed to making it easier for them to compete with players who are given every advantage when It comes to the load outs of their mechs.

If they're basing their quirks/buffs based upon competitive builds, then I think they're going about it all wrong. I don't think they're only looking at competition, however. Many of the quirks relate specifically to the factory (stock) build, and the more a player violates the mechs original design, the less quirks/buffs they'll have. Customizing a mech might give it some new abilities, but it will cost you. As some have said, and I hope they are right: we'll see a much more varied selection of mechs on the battlefield. As a proponent of stock builds, I'm happy to see anything that encourages less customization and more varied skill.

As far as balancing out inner sphere vs. clans, I think that's stupid. They aren't on the same level, never were, and as long as their are clan mechs that can take twice the firepower than an inner sphere mech, they will not be equal. Battle value is their answer, and it is the one they seem to ignore. Rather than base matches on tonnage, base them on battle value. No matter the tonnage of the mech, after a player builds it, it should be given a battle value. The matchmaker then looks at a player's ELO AND battlevalue to determine their ELO, rather than simply their skill. If that means that there are fewer clan mechs, in relation to Inner Sphere mechs, well that's fine. That's how it should be anyway.

Right now they're creating a quirk system to balance inner sphere to clans. Does that mean when we get upgraded inner sphere technology like RAC's, PPC capacitors, X-Pulse lasers, and reactive and/or hardened armor, the inner sphere mechs will all of a sudden be better than the clan mechs? No: they'll have to do a whole new balance pass. Battle value would solve the current AND eventual balance issues.

I disagree with the idea that clan mechs should be nerfed to match inner sphere mechs, just as even quirked, I don't think the inner sphere mechs should equal clan mechs. If that was the case, I want a partial refund on all of my clan mech purchases. Why? Because if they're no better than inner sphere mechs, why would they cost so much more MC/real money? And if inner sphere and clan mechs are of the same power, why not have mixed tech? (The questions are rhetorical.)

As far as casual vs. competitive play. Let's change those words to inexperienced and experienced players. As a player delves deeper into the game (and/or empties their pockets) they learn more and more about what works and what does not. Since so many of these quirks give bonuses to gear that come stock with the mechs as they're purchased, it may actually help newer players be more competitive, as their stock builds won't suck as much as they used to. As another in this thread said, the more experienced players will figure out every advantage they can squeak out from their mech builds no matter how perfectly balanced everything is. Either that, or have a stock mech queue, where players excel based more upon skill than mech builds. In the end, its a combination of the best mechs, the best teamwork, and the best players that dominate. The mech is only part of the equation.

Conclusion, the quirks are a good thing. The reasons for their implementation are bad. The idea of "must balance inner sphere mechs to be on par with clan mechs" is backwards. BATTLE VALUE is the key to that problem.

Edited by Peiper, 06 November 2014 - 03:45 PM.

[Alexi Davion]

I am pretty happy with the Quirks so far. It breathes new life into my Thunderbolts, takes all the red evil out of my Poor Victors, and gives a little love here and there all around. I Like it and I hope they continue with the system. Over all aFor me a great Patch!!

P.S>
Please Just don't Make my King Crab all Green with icky Frog teeth!!..Thanks.

[Widowmaker1981]

Peiper, on 06 November 2014 - 03:42 PM, said:

If they're basing their quirks/buffs based upon competitive builds, then I think they're going about it all wrong. I don't think they're only looking at competition, however. Many of the quirks relate specifically to the factory (stock) build, and the more a player violates the mechs original design, the less quirks/buffs they'll have. Customizing a mech might give it some new abilities, but it will cost you. As some have said, and I hope they are right: we'll see a much more varied selection of mechs on the battlefield. As a proponent of stock builds, I'm happy to see anything that encourages less customization and more varied skill.

As far as balancing out inner sphere vs. clans, I think that's stupid. They aren't on the same level, never were, and as long as their are clan mechs that can take twice the firepower than an inner sphere mech, they will not be equal. Battle value is their answer, and it is the one they seem to ignore. Rather than base matches on tonnage, base them on battle value. No matter the tonnage of the mech, after a player builds it, it should be given a battle value. The matchmaker then looks at a player's ELO AND battlevalue to determine their ELO, rather than simply their skill. If that means that there are fewer clan mechs, in relation to Inner Sphere mechs, well that's fine. That's how it should be anyway.

Right now they're creating a quirk system to balance inner sphere to clans. Does that mean when we get upgraded inner sphere technology like RAC's, PPC capacitors, X-Pulse lasers, and reactive and/or hardened armor, the inner sphere mechs will all of a sudden be better than the clan mechs? No: they'll have to do a whole new balance pass. Battle value would solve the current AND eventual balance issues.

I disagree with the idea that clan mechs should be nerfed to match inner sphere mechs, just as even quirked, I don't think the inner sphere mechs should equal clan mechs. If that was the case, I want a partial refund on all of my clan mech purchases. Why? Because if they're no better than inner sphere mechs, why would they cost so much more MC/real money? And if inner sphere and clan mechs are of the same power, why not have mixed tech? (The questions are rhetorical.)

As far as casual vs. competitive play. Let's change those words to inexperienced and experienced players. As a player delves deeper into the game (and/or empties their pockets) they learn more and more about what works and what does not. Since so many of these quirks give bonuses to gear that come stock with the mechs as they're purchased, it may actually help newer players be more competitive, as their stock builds won't suck as much as they used to. As another in this thread said, the more experienced players will figure out every advantage they can squeak out from their mech builds no matter how perfectly balanced everything is. Either that, or have a stock mech queue, where players excel based more upon skill than mech builds. In the end, its a combination of the best mechs, the best teamwork, and the best players that dominate. The mech is only part of the equation.

Conclusion, the quirks are a good thing. The reasons for their implementation are bad. The idea of "must balance inner sphere mechs to be on par with clan mechs" is backwards. BATTLE VALUE is the key to that problem.

Can you not see the glaring problem with the BV plan? if you give players an explicit guide to what the powers that be/game considers the 'most powerful' they will either take that, completely removing variety, or game the system like mofos (find 'low bv' builds that are effective for whatever reason, and spam the crap out of them) allowing them to play against noobs and wreck face. TERRIBLE idea.

In response to the OP: what you are saying, is that people who ignore the mechlab / don't use their brains when building mechs will be at a disadvantage? well Boohoo... mechlab 'skills' are important too. Its like saying 'i suck at this game, make it so i can win anyway please'

[Lily from animove]

Give that thing time,

the quriks a new many competitive try them out, and will probbaly go bakc to their standard meta mechs later.
Further, the non competitive gamers will need some time to recognize there are new quirks and start to build mechs around this.
And another aspect is, countergameplay. Poeple now have to face new builds which the ysuually will do with old habits. They need time to adopt to that situation and develop counterstrategies.

such a change does need its time to find its place first before you can really judge it. Give that thing 2 month and then see what establishes how.

[Peiper]

Widowmaker1981, on 07 November 2014 - 01:06 AM, said:

Can you not see the glaring problem with the BV plan? if you give players an explicit guide to what the powers that be/game considers the 'most powerful' they will either take that, completely removing variety, or game the system like mofos (find 'low bv' builds that are effective for whatever reason, and spam the crap out of them) allowing them to play against noobs and wreck face. TERRIBLE idea.

1. Battle Value would replace mech tonnage, not ELO. Added to ELO, you have a value that combines both the value of the mech and the pilot. Right now, if an Atlas pilot has the same ELO as a Dire Wolf pilot, the game won't care what mech they're in. They'll match them up, and in a head to head fight, the Dire Wolf wins - not because the pilot is better, but because the mech is.

2. The higher overall value (BV+ELO), the more lower value mechs/pilots you will see facing them. If a stock atlas D has a 100 BV and a tricked out Dire Wolf has an ELO of 200, you'll see the matchmaker place the two Atlases versus one Dire Wolf.

3. For arranged matches, like CW planetary drops: When dropping, instead of having a weight limit, you will have a battle value/ELO limit per team. Let's say that each team has 2000 ELO/BV points to spend on their team. One team has a bunch of low ELO players (say, totaling 500 points), and the other, high ELO players (1000 points). The low ELO players will probably have better mechs to make up for the disparity as they have 1500 points to spend on mechs, where the high ELO players will have only 1000.

4. In matches where there are, say, 8 players on one team, and 12 players on the other, the smaller team will have more BV points to mess with to pick their mechs with. So, you might see 8 heavier mechs versus 12 of a greater variety.

5. Inner Sphere vs. Clan: Since Clan mechs would have a higher battle value (the gap is narrowing with each clan nerf and inner sphere buff) you would have less tonnage or fewer mechs dropping against an equivilant BV inner sphere team. This will help keep the game with lore, and allow for clan mechs to stay more powerful. (Even with better mechs, they will still be hard pressed to beat MORE mechs, because even one or two extra pilots on a team will make a HUGE difference - at least my private lobby experience has shown this to be true.)

6. In single queues, ELO+BV would be used to match up players for 12 v 12 fights.

7. In pug team drops, the same thing would happen. It's no different than what we have now, only it takes into account the VALUE of the mech, rather than the tonnage. A Timber Wolf is arguably as good or better than any IS assault mech in the right hands. So, you might not see the matchmaker try to create 3/3/3/3 class queues, but you will see a more balanced fight.

8. Yes, people will min/max battle values as best they can, and the devs will have to adjust battle values according to what is observed - but that's no different than what we have now. Only, instead of quirking and nerfing mechs, they'll simply change the battle values. (or both)

9. Units will be challenged. If they know they can only take a certain battle value of mechs, they will make builds accordingly. If they want to fight against noobs, they will have to take crappier mechs, giving the noobs a better chance at beating them. For this to work, ELO scores will probably have to be made available to the players. Either that, or teams will build by a set MAXIMUM battle value, and they can - clan style - try to underbid so they fight lesser players, but in crappier mechs. So yes, a bunch of high ELO clanners may take 12 Stormcrows instead of 3 timber wolves and 3 dire wolves in a drop, but they may be facing 3 atlases, 3 orions, and a bunch of inner sphere mediums. Sounds like a challenge to me! OR, four high ELO players could take 4 Dire Wolves and end up facing 12 ECM cicadas. It could happen with Battle Values replacing tonnage!

So, to your fears, yes, players may find exploits like they do in every game - like the ALREADY DO NOW in MWO. That won't change. Instead, imagine the possibilities of this idea, and scrap your fears!

[Pain Killer]

Peiper, on 07 November 2014 - 02:30 AM, said:

Right now, if an Atlas pilot has the same ELO as a Dire Wolf pilot, the game won't care what mech they're in. They'll match them up, and in a head to head fight, the Dire Wolf wins - not because the pilot is better, but because the mech is.

"A 'Mech as powerful as possible, as impenetrable as possible, and as ugly and foreboding as conceivable, so that fear itself will be our ally." - that's what Kerensky saw in the Atlas.
FRESH MEAT - that's what I see in an Atlas when I take my DW out. It's no contest, really. I love my Atlai, and had moderate success piloting them, but I always used to wonder why did I have so much trouble fighting the DW. Now, even after all the nerfs to clan mechs, I know.

[POWR]

Wouldn't the inexperienced new player launching in a trial champion running a setup that largely benefits from the quirks of the mech be at exactly the same level of disadvantage against a more experienced player than he was before? It might even be less of a disadvantage now.

[Widowmaker1981]

Peiper, on 07 November 2014 - 02:30 AM, said:

1. Battle Value would replace mech tonnage, not ELO. Added to ELO, you have a value that combines both the value of the mech and the pilot. Right now, if an Atlas pilot has the same ELO as a Dire Wolf pilot, the game won't care what mech they're in. They'll match them up, and in a head to head fight, the Dire Wolf wins - not because the pilot is better, but because the mech is.

2. The higher overall value (BV+ELO), the more lower value mechs/pilots you will see facing them. If a stock atlas D has a 100 BV and a tricked out Dire Wolf has an ELO of 200, you'll see the matchmaker place the two Atlases versus one Dire Wolf.

3. For arranged matches, like CW planetary drops: When dropping, instead of having a weight limit, you will have a battle value/ELO limit per team. Let's say that each team has 2000 ELO/BV points to spend on their team. One team has a bunch of low ELO players (say, totaling 500 points), and the other, high ELO players (1000 points). The low ELO players will probably have better mechs to make up for the disparity as they have 1500 points to spend on mechs, where the high ELO players will have only 1000.

4. In matches where there are, say, 8 players on one team, and 12 players on the other, the smaller team will have more BV points to mess with to pick their mechs with. So, you might see 8 heavier mechs versus 12 of a greater variety.

5. Inner Sphere vs. Clan: Since Clan mechs would have a higher battle value (the gap is narrowing with each clan nerf and inner sphere buff) you would have less tonnage or fewer mechs dropping against an equivilant BV inner sphere team. This will help keep the game with lore, and allow for clan mechs to stay more powerful. (Even with better mechs, they will still be hard pressed to beat MORE mechs, because even one or two extra pilots on a team will make a HUGE difference - at least my private lobby experience has shown this to be true.)

6. In single queues, ELO+BV would be used to match up players for 12 v 12 fights.

7. In pug team drops, the same thing would happen. It's no different than what we have now, only it takes into account the VALUE of the mech, rather than the tonnage. A Timber Wolf is arguably as good or better than any IS assault mech in the right hands. So, you might not see the matchmaker try to create 3/3/3/3 class queues, but you will see a more balanced fight.

8. Yes, people will min/max battle values as best they can, and the devs will have to adjust battle values according to what is observed - but that's no different than what we have now. Only, instead of quirking and nerfing mechs, they'll simply change the battle values. (or both)

9. Units will be challenged. If they know they can only take a certain battle value of mechs, they will make builds accordingly. If they want to fight against noobs, they will have to take crappier mechs, giving the noobs a better chance at beating them. For this to work, ELO scores will probably have to be made available to the players. Either that, or teams will build by a set MAXIMUM battle value, and they can - clan style - try to underbid so they fight lesser players, but in crappier mechs. So yes, a bunch of high ELO clanners may take 12 Stormcrows instead of 3 timber wolves and 3 dire wolves in a drop, but they may be facing 3 atlases, 3 orions, and a bunch of inner sphere mediums. Sounds like a challenge to me! OR, four high ELO players could take 4 Dire Wolves and end up facing 12 ECM cicadas. It could happen with Battle Values replacing tonnage!

So, to your fears, yes, players may find exploits like they do in every game - like the ALREADY DO NOW in MWO. That won't change. Instead, imagine the possibilities of this idea, and scrap your fears!

In order for that to work, asymmetrical teams would have to be a thing, which PGI doesnt want them to be.

and FYI 12 ECM cicadas would tear 4 direwolves into tiny pieces, probably without losing a single mech, unless they were utterly useless.

Honestly, i think quirking mechs to be somewhat equal to each other but different, at least within tonnage ranges is a much better, and much easier way of doing it. BV is too complex to work out for this game, and you absolutely CANNOT take BT values for stuff because it doenst apply.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 07 November 2014 - 03:23 AM.

[Youshallgofo]

OK if you paid money for clan mechs because you thought they would give you an advantage you bought them for the wrong reason. The real reason you paid for clans was you either wanted to contribute to the game, you like the look/story of the clans, or you like the play style the clan weapons have over the IS weapons(mobility + high dps for longer weapon duration.) We all knew you would be able to buy these with cbills if you waited, its not like they forced anyone. Clans offer a different playing style and that is all.

[The Great Unwashed]

I'd even reverse the argument: by having quirks on a chassis a beginning/casual player is steered towards more effective builds. The enormous range of choices for a load-out is narrowed and the tinkering time is reduced.

Tinkering time for beginning players is not so great, because you might dismiss a good build based on inexperience and the chassis without any skills unlocked. Even the stock loadout might be bad. Not so with the quirks.

[Nebelfeuer]

Do not play that much for a while but I build the mechs I own the way they are because I liked feel of the configuration. The new quirks put my personal designs at a disadvantage so I either have to change them in order to be effective or I would have to buy different variants of the same chassis to get advantages for my builds. Neither of these is going to happen.
I consider myself well enough educated and interested in the classic battletech universe but by now new player need about 2 months at MWO university to have a chance to see through the nonsensical hugh number of layers of well hidden balance adjustments they implemented by now. And I allready needed multiple hours to make new player understand the system a year and a half ago when it was less complex. The worst thing is it does not improve gameplay one bit - it´s like masking a dirty floor with an dusty carpet.
For now I say thanks for giving me a reason to finally clear some HDD space on my PC.

Best wishes for the future but you guys should definitely think about simplifying your sytem and make it more userfriendly.
Might look into this game again if you decide to add bigger maps and a stock mech only queue. bye

[Peiper]

The Great Unwashed, on 07 November 2014 - 06:37 AM, said:

I'd even reverse the argument: by having quirks on a chassis a beginning/casual player is steered towards more effective builds. The enormous range of choices for a load-out is narrowed and the tinkering time is reduced.

Tinkering time for beginning players is not so great, because you might dismiss a good build based on inexperience and the chassis without any skills unlocked. Even the stock loadout might be bad. Not so with the quirks.

This is a great point. So many new players are frustrated when they buy their first mech or two, only to find they aren't what they hoped or believed they would be. They end up dumping their valuable early earnings into experiments with gear that may help, but often hinders them. I'd rather see player retention. Players read fluff, and they think it SOUNDS great! Then they try it and realize they invested in fluff. When we get new Devil Dogs or pugs wander in, and we listen to their stories, we are /facepalming. We Devil Dogs encourage people to play what they want, rather than metabuilds, but there are some builds that simply leave you at major disadvantages. And then there are those who get fed up, sell all their mechs for a fraction of the price, and are kind-of stuck saving for a mech and they still don't know what to buy. Units help players with their experience, but the lone wolves are really on their own.

[King of the Woad]

Greziz, on 06 November 2014 - 02:26 PM, said:

The quirks are a great step in creating a larger diversity of mechs on the battlefield and if very refreshing.

That said the quirks do not widen the gap of casual vs competitive so much as GREATLY ENCOURAGE the casuals to build a mech that doesn't choke down phallic objects. Hmmmm this mech is quirked to use ac20 and medium lazers and brawl? Better put on small pulses and a ac5 and ac2? seriously some casual players look like they might be closing their eyes when building their mechs.

Either that, or the quirks are incredibly stupid. Why take the Arrow, for example, and REQUIRE it to be a BJ-1(C)?

Idiotic quirks are more the norm than not. But if you don't GO with the idiotic quirks, you are left in the dust. Having "ERLL" specific quirks, for example, is a bad idea - the more generic "Lazer <insert Dr. Evil fingers here>" is of more use. Instead of "AC-20 buff here", how about "Ballistics"?

By insisting that players, in order to minimally max their mechs, must build them "to spec", they are leaving a lot of players wondering why they login. I'm one of them. Between OP clan (and yes, it always makes me smile to see a clanner saying "No they aren't - I'm just GOOD!") mechs, rewards going down the toilet and forced playstyles by quirk, I really have little idea why a new player would even bother logging in. Particularly since the quirks have NOTHING to do with the stock loadouts on the mechs.

Idiocy.