23 replies to this topic

[Quxudica]

These two things should not be modules, they should be equipment. When they were first introduced they were of dubious value, even the fully leveled versions did rather pitiful damage. However since then they have received changes that make them effective, though not overpowered punches.

Note that I said they are not overpowered, that isn't the problem with them. The problem is they have no downside beyond cbill cost - something completely irrelevant to most competitive players. This means that there is no reason for pretty much any mech to not bring them as they currently exist, they are free easy area damage and in some situations a free IWIN button.

So what should be changed?

Firstly, the idea that these things are magic cards we pull out of our mechs behinds needs to go. These things provide a distinct tactical advantage and a potentially substantial amount of damage, as such they need to be treated like any other weapon system. So instead of a magical card that weighs nothing and uses no slots we have:

Flare Launcher: Weight 1 ton, 1 Slot.

This piece of equipment consumes a modest amount of weight and slots and can be destroyed like any other equipment. this launcher uses:

Art/Air Signal Flare Ammo: A color coded smoke flare, red for artillery and blue for airstrike (or whatever color). weighs .5 tons, is stored inside the launcher the same way engines store extra heat sinks. Max ammo is always 1 per flare type (so 1 Arty, 1 Air max just like now except bringing it all costs you a slot and two tons).

Now these weapon systems require more of a commitment than just 40k cbills. Now players have to make a dedicated choice to bring them that means freeing up space in their builds. But is this really enough? Well.. this is the compromised version.

To me Artillery and Airstrikes should be components of MWO's Role Warfare system, and as such equipping them should be restricted to specific mech chassis the same way ECM has been. Predominantly these support weapons should be the province of scouts and strike-recon mechs (in other words, most lights and mediums) with possible exceptions for command mechs (DDC etc). This would greatly reduce the spamming of these weapons for essentially free damage, help flesh out the tool kits available to the games poorly served scouts and in combination with being transformed into equipment make them a willful choice and not just an auto-refill check box for players with no need to care about cbills.

Lastly I would say that UAV's and Coolshots should receive the same treatment for many of the same reasons. Consumables in such a fashion should never have been implemented into the game, especially consumables with improved versions available for MC and UAV's especially should absolutely have been a tool used to fleshout the scout role.

PGI needs to make money, I get it, but I firmly believe that the current implementation of these items has detracted from game play and negated their potential use to define critical roles in MWO's Role Warfare pillar.

[Sandpit]

Quxudica, on 10 November 2014 - 01:32 PM, said:

Firstly, the idea that these things are magic cards we pull out of our mechs behinds needs to go.

as opposed to jumping on your interstellar radio and calling in an airstrike or arty strike just like military units do now? They don't hump around magic planes in their pockets, they make a phone call.

They've placed limits on how many can be taken, they aren't anything more than a strategic nuisance most times that help move and decamp enemy units.

[Quxudica]

Sandpit, on 10 November 2014 - 01:41 PM, said:

as opposed to jumping on your interstellar radio and calling in an airstrike or arty strike just like military units do now? They don't hump around magic planes in their pockets, they make a phone call.

They've placed limits on how many can be taken, they aren't anything more than a strategic nuisance most times that help move and decamp enemy units.

Try reading more than just the topic before replying next time.

[Telmasa]

Sandpit, on 10 November 2014 - 01:41 PM, said:

as opposed to jumping on your interstellar radio and calling in an airstrike or arty strike just like military units do now? They don't hump around magic planes in their pockets, they make a phone call.

They've placed limits on how many can be taken, they aren't anything more than a strategic nuisance most times that help move and decamp enemy units.

12 strikes in 1 game is a bare minimum of 2520 potential damage. 4200 if all 12 are the "advanced" version gotten with either MC or pilot modules.

That's enough damage to take down multiple 3/3/3/3 teams.

I'm completely with the OP on this, I'm sick and tired of the "magic card" version of strikes in the game right now.

[LauLiao]

Quxudica, on 10 November 2014 - 01:44 PM, said:

Try reading more than just the topic before replying next time.

Just because he doesn't agree doesn't mean he didn't read you're whole post. I tend to agree with Sand on this one. They're really not that big of a deal, and the ONLY thing I MIGHT change about them is to increase the global cooldown on them slightly MAYBE.

[Sandpit]

Quxudica, on 10 November 2014 - 01:44 PM, said:

Try reading more than just the topic before replying next time.

as opposed to responding to your direct statement that I quoted?

In other words, there's no basis for your argument that arty and air should be equipment that has weight and space. You make a phone call. Does that help?

[Mercules]

Quxudica, on 10 November 2014 - 01:44 PM, said:

Try reading more than just the topic before replying next time.

I did, and I agree with Sandpit. Calling in an artillery strike and having the "magic card" means we paid our merc company artillery carrier for X number of strikes, he is waiting to drop in on our signal. Radio coordinates(which our mech does when we target the spot) and he drops the barrage right there.

[LauLiao]

Telmasa, on 10 November 2014 - 01:48 PM, said:

I'm completely with the OP on this, I'm sick and tired of the "magic card" version of strikes in the game right now.

YEAH! MORE REALITY TO OUR INTERSTELLAR STOMPY ROBOT WAR MACHINES! Also, in canon transit times between planets could be anywhere from days to weeks. Every account should only be able to run one game per week to maintain our "immersion".

Edited by LauLiao, 10 November 2014 - 01:53 PM.

[Mercules]

Telmasa, on 10 November 2014 - 01:48 PM, said:

12 strikes in 1 game is a bare minimum of 2520 potential damage. 4200 if all 12 are the "advanced" version gotten with either MC or pilot modules.

That's enough damage to take down multiple 3/3/3/3 teams.

I'm completely with the OP on this, I'm sick and tired of the "magic card" version of strikes in the game right now.

If a company of mechs stands in one spot, all clumped up enough so that every round hits, for 12 separate barrages, they deserve to be wiped out multiple times over. The magic word is "potential" damage. While I have finished off a wounded mech with them, or gotten a significant hit with them, the times they do much of anything is far between. Mostly they work like turning on the light and watching the roaches scurry for the cracks in the floor/wall.

[Mystere]

Do we really need another thread on this topic? The last one is still alive and kicking.

[Quxudica]

Mercules, on 10 November 2014 - 01:51 PM, said:

I did, and I agree with Sandpit. Calling in an artillery strike and having the "magic card" means we paid our merc company artillery carrier for X number of strikes, he is waiting to drop in on our signal. Radio coordinates(which our mech does when we target the spot) and he drops the barrage right there.

That's great for fluff, not great for gameplay. The purpose behind the changes is to make Strikes (and potentially coolshot/UAVs) a more interesting choice. As it stands the only reason to not bring one of these is the 40k cbill price tag. You give up nothing on your mech for the added support, not even other modules anymore, which means there's never a choice here. Sure these things are situational, but as it stands not bringing them is only ever going to gimp you.

It's a non-choice that adds nothing to the gameplay. If you alter them however, change them into equipment that has to be built into the mech like anything else and or restrict them to certain chassis, suddenly you now have real choices to make. Do you give up a couple tons for the ability to call down support fire? Do you expend the space and weight for the ability to dump heat in an emergency? Do you sacrifice weaponry, speed or armor for the ability to carry remote spotting drones into battle? It suddenly becomes a question of "What role do I want to fill in the fight?" and not "can I afford 40k cbills? if yes click auto-fill"

[LauLiao]

Telmasa, on 10 November 2014 - 01:48 PM, said:

12 strikes in 1 game is a bare minimum of 2520 potential damage. 4200 if all 12 are the "advanced" version gotten with either MC or pilot modules.

Small lasers do 3 damage every 3 seconds. That's 900 potential damage for a half-ton piece of equipment in a 15 minute match! OP!

[3rdworld]

LauLiao, on 10 November 2014 - 02:04 PM, said:

Small lasers do 3 damage every 3 seconds. That's 900 potential damage for a half-ton piece of equipment in a 15 minute match! OP!

One of these things is not like the other.

[Escef]

Quxudica, on 10 November 2014 - 01:32 PM, said:

Note that I said they are not overpowered, that isn't the problem with them. ... they are free easy area damage and in some situations a free IWIN button.

Wait, what?

[Sandpit]

Quxudica, on 10 November 2014 - 02:03 PM, said:

That's great for fluff, not great for gameplay. The purpose behind the changes is to make Strikes (and potentially coolshot/UAVs) a more interesting choice. As it stands the only reason to not bring one of these is the 40k cbill price tag. You give up nothing on your mech for the added support, not even other modules anymore, which means there's never a choice here. Sure these things are situational, but as it stands not bringing them is only ever going to gimp you.

It's a non-choice that adds nothing to the gameplay. If you alter them however, change them into equipment that has to be built into the mech like anything else and or restrict them to certain chassis, suddenly you now have real choices to make. Do you give up a couple tons for the ability to call down support fire? Do you expend the space and weight for the ability to dump heat in an emergency? Do you sacrifice weaponry, speed or armor for the ability to carry remote spotting drones into battle? It suddenly becomes a question of "What role do I want to fill in the fight?" and not "can I afford 40k cbills? if yes click auto-fill"

So you're saying that in order to talk into my mech's comm systems and call in an arty strike from my base or dropship or whatever, I should be required to give up tonnage and crit space?

[KraftySOT]

Sandpit, on 10 November 2014 - 01:41 PM, said:

as opposed to jumping on your interstellar radio and calling in an airstrike or arty strike just like military units do now? They don't hump around magic planes in their pockets, they make a phone call.

They've placed limits on how many can be taken, they aren't anything more than a strategic nuisance most times that help move and decamp enemy units.

To be fair...the military doesnt just call up and say "I NEED ARTY!" then it hits the spot theyre talking about 10 seconds later.

I was a 13E. Its uh, considerably more complicated than that. If you guys want to learn grid coords, use spotter rounds, learn adjustment corridors, and wait the proper time. Sure, Thatd be cool.

Most fire missions take 3-5 minutes before spotting rounds fall, and then another minute or two before mission density increases on target.

Calling in a fire mission, actually requires math, even if you have an FCS. On both ends. The FO, and the actual fire team.

[Sandpit]

KraftySOT, on 10 November 2014 - 02:33 PM, said:

To be fair...the military doesnt just call up and say "I NEED ARTY!" then it hits the spot theyre talking about 10 seconds later.

I was a 13E. Its uh, considerably more complicated than that. If you guys want to learn grid coords, use spotter rounds, learn adjustment corridors, and wait the proper time. Sure, Thatd be cool.

Most fire missions take 3-5 minutes before spotting rounds fall, and then another minute or two before mission density increases on target.

Calling in a fire mission, actually requires math, even if you have an FCS. On both ends. The FO, and the actual fire team.

I understand it was an oversimplification of the process. You'd be surprised at how many in this community are veterans or active duty. The point being, the statement or implication that arty and air are some sort of magical card where we just toss out a plane from our mech's arse is incorrect.

You also have to put the timeframe into context with the game. Matches generally last about 10 minutes. That's the entire game. When you say "it takes more than 10 seconds to call it in", that's also in a real world situation where you're not finishing your entire military campaign in under 10 minutes.

[Kalimaster]

Quxudica, on 10 November 2014 - 01:32 PM, said:

These two things should not be modules, they should be equipment. When they were first introduced they were of dubious value, even the fully leveled versions did rather pitiful damage. However since then they have received changes that make them effective, though not overpowered punches.

Note that I said they are not overpowered, that isn't the problem with them. The problem is they have no downside beyond cbill cost - something completely irrelevant to most competitive players. This means that there is no reason for pretty much any mech to not bring them as they currently exist, they are free easy area damage and in some situations a free IWIN button.

So what should be changed?

Firstly, the idea that these things are magic cards we pull out of our mechs behinds needs to go. These things provide a distinct tactical advantage and a potentially substantial amount of damage, as such they need to be treated like any other weapon system. So instead of a magical card that weighs nothing and uses no slots we have:

Flare Launcher: Weight 1 ton, 1 Slot.

This piece of equipment consumes a modest amount of weight and slots and can be destroyed like any other equipment. this launcher uses:

Art/Air Signal Flare Ammo: A color coded smoke flare, red for artillery and blue for airstrike (or whatever color). weighs .5 tons, is stored inside the launcher the same way engines store extra heat sinks. Max ammo is always 1 per flare type (so 1 Arty, 1 Air max just like now except bringing it all costs you a slot and two tons).

Now these weapon systems require more of a commitment than just 40k cbills. Now players have to make a dedicated choice to bring them that means freeing up space in their builds. But is this really enough? Well.. this is the compromised version.

To me Artillery and Airstrikes should be components of MWO's Role Warfare system, and as such equipping them should be restricted to specific mech chassis the same way ECM has been. Predominantly these support weapons should be the province of scouts and strike-recon mechs (in other words, most lights and mediums) with possible exceptions for command mechs (DDC etc). This would greatly reduce the spamming of these weapons for essentially free damage, help flesh out the tool kits available to the games poorly served scouts and in combination with being transformed into equipment make them a willful choice and not just an auto-refill check box for players with no need to care about cbills.

Lastly I would say that UAV's and Coolshots should receive the same treatment for many of the same reasons. Consumables in such a fashion should never have been implemented into the game, especially consumables with improved versions available for MC and UAV's especially should absolutely have been a tool used to fleshout the scout role.

PGI needs to make money, I get it, but I firmly believe that the current implementation of these items has detracted from game play and negated their potential use to define critical roles in MWO's Role Warfare pillar.

I would like to mention something here. I have already made a suggestion for Flares, how they can be implicated. Oh yeah. They had no weight so they would not detract from a players Mech build.

[KraftySOT]

Well, it depends. Many modern engagements are under 10 minutes of sustained contact. Artillery isnt generally used much anymore. Light mortars and aircraft have taken over that role.

Within the context of the game, I dont mind the "Red Smoke spell". But I can see why people get aggravated. Ive been in matches where everyone on both sides has it, and its rather annoying.

For comparison, in the board game, it takes 20 seconds to hit, and there is dispersion. It might not hit where you called it, unless you premarked the hex for artillery (which is of course how it actually works, with pre desiginated points of fire)

It COULD stand, if its dealing potentially alot of damage, to take the 20 seconds its supposed to. No match in battletech actually lasts 10 minutes, (that would be a heck of alot of turns) but still artillery is very powerful, with dispersion and the time to target.

For on map artillery, its only 10 seconds, but of course you can then destroy that artillery piece (APCs and infantry are great for this)

Its an interesting extrapolation of the TT, but it just doesnt work well within our context. Though its not exactly over powering either. You just...move out of the red smoke...

Itd also be cool if the airstrikes happened faster than the arty, but did less damage, but there were actually PvE aerotech bombers circling over head, that you could shoot down like UAVs when they went in for attack runs.

Some different types of attacks would be cool. Bombs, or lasers, or autocannons, or missiles, depending on the type of airstrike.

[Sandpit]

KraftySOT, on 10 November 2014 - 02:44 PM, said:

Well, it depends. Many modern engagements are under 10 minutes of sustained contact. Artillery isnt generally used much anymore. Light mortars and aircraft have taken over that role.

Within the context of the game, I dont mind the "Red Smoke spell". But I can see why people get aggravated. Ive been in matches where everyone on both sides has it, and its rather annoying.

For comparison, in the board game, it takes 20 seconds to hit, and there is dispersion. It might not hit where you called it, unless you premarked the hex for artillery (which is of course how it actually works, with pre desiginated points of fire)

It COULD stand, if its dealing potentially alot of damage, to take the 20 seconds its supposed to. No match in battletech actually lasts 10 minutes, (that would be a heck of alot of turns) but still artillery is very powerful, with dispersion and the time to target.

For on map artillery, its only 10 seconds, but of course you can then destroy that artillery piece (APCs and infantry are great for this)

Its an interesting extrapolation of the TT, but it just doesnt work well within our context. Though its not exactly over powering either. You just...move out of the red smoke...

Itd also be cool if the airstrikes happened faster than the arty, but did less damage, but there were actually PvE aerotech bombers circling over head, that you could shoot down like UAVs when they went in for attack runs.

Some different types of attacks would be cool. Bombs, or lasers, or autocannons, or missiles, depending on the type of airstrike.

Arty has dispersion in MWO as well. They don't hit exactly where you place it, they hit an area of affect. That's why you can upgrade them to get a tighter cluster. Personally I keep mine in a wider area so it has a better chance of denying an area to the enemy.

A few thigns that have been talked about in the past that Russ has stated he likes the idea of are
smoke
flares
But again, all of this stuff is supposed to be on the backburner while they get CW completed.