9 replies to this topic

[luxebo]

Many are complaining about three specific mechs, the TBR-A (laser shoulder), the SCR-B 6 E arm, and the GRF-2N.

For those that for whatever reason have no idea what I'm talking about:
Doomcrow 6 energy arm:
-10% Energy cooldown
+10% Laser duration
+7.5% Energy heat
Mad Cat 3 energy torso:
-5% Acceleration rate
-5% Deceleration rate
-10% Reverse speed
-10% Energy cooldown
+10% Laser duration
Griffin has 2 M RT, 2 M LT, 2 E in one arm, plus JJs + ECM.

Let's start from the front. The TBR-A gets thunderbolt 9S/5SS and Hellbringer high energy hard points. It also gets decreased acceleration on both ends, less reverse speed, and some minor duration/cooldown nerfs. This is a tiny nerf to both long and short range gameplay. The lessened cooldown and duration will make it less desirable to go in a short range brawl. The lasers would end up cooling down slightly longer and full damage takes longer to drop. However, it gets a tiny nerf and HUGE buff to long range gameplay. The less mobility will take a hit in how fast to get back into cover, but with JJs, possible arm shielding (as one could still have quite a bit of E points all over the other two torsos), that tiny amount of mobility loss will not change much. Some of the pilots are worried about losing that torso. The amount of shielding you could do in a Timber makes that point near invalid as it's possible now to lose the arms completely and go full laser vomit (4-5 ER LL no problem).

For the TBR-A I want to do this:
Lose it's 5% accel/decel and 10% reverse speed. This hardpoint was designed to aim over everything, so let it be the sniper people want. HOWEVER, do make it so if one wants a better sniper, it's a huge sacrifice to the brawling. Raise the two energy nerfs to 20%, possibly 25%. There we go, it's pretty balanced out. Way better sniper, way worse brawler.

Now others have complained that the SCR-B might also do damage to balance. In all honesty however, it is actually potentially overnerfed, but to counteract everything, here is the benefits vs nerfs. 6 E arm versus 4 E. If the 6 E didn't recieve nerfs, it would literally change the vomitcrow to a 5 ER ML instead of 4 in the arm, with a head ML and LPL torso. Same give or take, but buffs one extra laser. But, with the negative quirks, it makes it much less desirable to be used at all, as it basically is a slight buff to firepower in any range category with a quite big nerf to everything else. I think there isn't enough brawling with lasers, and rather than buffing the laser vomit mid range firepower, it should be there to help with brawling, but outright be a nerf to mid range firepower.

For the SCR-B I want to do this:
-10% heat on ER ML, ER LL, CMPL, CLPL. Keeps this more of a nerf on the mid range gameplay. Get rid of the -7.5% heat on any small lasers, so only those specific lasers. Add another 10% cooldown nerf, raising to a total of 20%. Remove the duration nerf. This will make it a nice poke brawler, allowing it to do more damage with lasers at range, but evens out the advantage it would get from asymmetric laser vomit. Cooldown isn't a problem since you can poke and dive into cover, which is what this arm should do rather than buff laser vomit again. Otherwise it might sorta lack a role as the 4 E arm would be better compared to the 6 E arm, since the 6 E has overall nerfs in all roles.

And then:
Buff the Nova so some variants can be a true knife fighter (diving in and coring and killing all within 90m), some can poke with lasers, and some can poptart decently with ER PPCs. Add that to the current buffs.

Finally the GRF-2N. It's pretty much going to overrun any SRM infighters in the game except the Stormcrow. GRF-3M has advantages in zombieing and tightening the SRMs, but the GRF-2N has ECM, plus the same amount of power in each other category. It will be the premier brawler in almost all cases, not only against the 3M but against every other SRM brawler, like the Wolverine-7K, HBK-4SP, etc. The huge hitboxes for the missiles will be nigh, as the arms can shield extremely well coupled by jump jet dodging and good hitboxes.

Do one if not some of these (not all); don't overnerf it but make it so other Griffins and SRM brawlers have a chance:
+Buff the other SRM mechs. 3M maybe even less spread, 7K could use armor buffs?, 4SP could use range on the SRMs, etc.
-Nerf the 2N by eliminating it's quirks.
-Nerf by directly removing one whole missile port.
-Nerf by directly removing one energy port.

In the end, these hardpoints are either non-influential (SCR-B will likely never take place in most builds), or overly buffed already good mechs (TBR-A, most likely GRF-2N). With some adjustments the hardpoints and variants are gonna be nice but only add on more roles, not a huge buff to one thing.

[Alistair Winter]

You do realize that removing the GRF-2N's quirks doesn't actually do anything, right? That's like nerfing the Summoner by taking away its 5% MG range quirk. I mean, the only significant bonus is the 20% ERPPC projectile speed, and no one will ever put a ERPPC on the GRF-2N anyway.

I think the GRF-2N is in a good place. The GRF-1N has an extra energy hardpoint, which I prefer. I like 3xSRM6 + 3xML more than 2xML and 4xSRM4/6. And the GRF-3M has the nice missile spread and the advantage of not easily losing its only weapon that isn't ammo based.

I think the Griffin is pretty far from being overpowered anyway, so if you want to make the other Griffins more attractive, then buff them. Maybe give them a reason to use the PPC / ERPPC, because right now there is none. Extra projectile speed is virtually useless on a mech that can't be used as a sniper anyway.

[luxebo]

Alistair Winter, on 20 April 2015 - 07:14 PM, said:

You do realize that removing the GRF-2N's quirks doesn't actually do anything, right? That's like nerfing the Summoner by taking away its 5% MG range quirk. I mean, the only significant bonus is the 20% ERPPC projectile speed, and no one will ever put a ERPPC on the GRF-2N anyway.

I think the GRF-2N is in a good place. The GRF-1N has an extra energy hardpoint, which I prefer. I like 3xSRM6 + 3xML more than 2xML and 4xSRM4/6. And the GRF-3M has the nice missile spread and the advantage of not easily losing its only weapon that isn't ammo based.

I think the Griffin is pretty far from being overpowered anyway, so if you want to make the other Griffins more attractive, then buff them. Maybe give them a reason to use the PPC / ERPPC, because right now there is none. Extra projectile speed is virtually useless on a mech that can't be used as a sniper anyway.

Well I said some of what I listed. So if you combine removing the quirks that really do stuff plus adding quirks that actually help to the others that would help a bit.

The GRF-3M is one of the strongest SRM brawling mechs, and with the 2N practically every other SRM mech is almost useless (even potentially including the Splatcrow). That's how bad it is, that ECM + JJ advantage is pretty strong.

But in the end, the 2N part is all in all not terribly overpowered, while it will sorta overtake many things at close range, it is only after all close range, which is much less gamechanging than the still huge buff to the TBR-A. The SCR-B isn't that that big of a change either, but not many would use it with the quirks it has. If we gave it a choice to more specialized type brawling then the SCR-B would have another role but not one that would outright be better than everything.

The TBR-A I'm still worried as heck about, as it has very minor negative quirks for the advantage it brings.

TL;DR: Even if GRF-2N dominates the close range game, the TBR-A is still waaay more gamechanging since it gives something way better to a mech that already invalidates almost every mech in the game. It would poke better than the Stalker 4N while maintaining strong pushing ability for close range AND having mid range dps. All in all, a no go. 2N/SCR-B is going to have an advantage, but it's not that big of a deal in comparison to the TBR-A shoulder.

Edited by luxebo, 20 April 2015 - 08:41 PM.

[CantHandletheTruth]

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e3f032b39a001b5

^^ is what has you so bothered?

Seriously 44 damage with a TON of ghost heat AND a 1.65s burn?

luxebo, on 20 April 2015 - 08:39 PM, said:

TL;DR: Even if GRF-2N dominates the close range game, the TBR-A is still waaay more gamechanging since it gives something way better to a mech that already invalidates almost every mech in the game. It would poke better than the Stalker 4N while maintaining strong pushing ability for close range AND having mid range dps. All in all, a no go. 2N/SCR-B is going to have an advantage, but it's not that big of a deal in comparison to the TBR-A shoulder.

Lots of rehtoric, but Timber hardly invalidates anything. Its a good poker, or a good brawler but not both at once.

Edited by CantHandletheTruth, 20 April 2015 - 09:51 PM.

[luxebo]

You fire in pairs...

That TBR-A shoulder is ffing high. It's gonna be far far too strong without something like a 25% cooldown reduction, as now it's going to be able to poke extremely well in all cases. Used to only really be the best at DPS but forced to reveal itself completely.

[CantHandletheTruth]

luxebo, on 20 April 2015 - 10:00 PM, said:

You fire in pairs...

That TBR-A shoulder is ffing high. It's gonna be far far too strong without something like a 25% cooldown reduction, as now it's going to be able to poke extremely well in all cases. Used to only really be the best at DPS but forced to reveal itself completely.

Oh great in pairs, so while you are standing there for over 3 seconds to complete two full burns without ghostheating yourself what is the enemy doing? Making smores?

Edited by CantHandletheTruth, 20 April 2015 - 10:24 PM.

[Wolf Clearwater]

The Griffin 2N doesn't need any nerfs at all. The Griffins in general could probably use a little more buffing. There is nothing a Griffin does that another IS medium or heavy does not do more efficiently. The hunchback 4SP is as nasty as any SRM boating Griffin. The only IS mechs that are really terribly in need of a nerf are the Firestarters which should have no quirks at all and the Dragon 1N is a little over the top. Not that it needs to be reduced a huge amount. Quite frankly, you are over reacting a bit.

The stormcrow arm is a bit much. Especially combined with the 4 energy left arm, I suppose you could run a 13 laser stormcrow. Probably will be ridiculously hot though.

Edited by Wolf Clearwater, 21 April 2015 - 01:52 PM.

[luxebo]

CantHandletheTruth, on 20 April 2015 - 10:24 PM, said:

Oh great in pairs, so while you are standing there for over 3 seconds to complete two full burns without ghostheating yourself what is the enemy doing? Making smores?

Probably trying to hit you while you hit em over 2000 meters away. Then you can laugh at them in CW.

@Wolf Clearwater I think the 2N doesn't truly need nerfs, but we need the other SRM boats to have a niche over the GRF-2N. The GRF-2N has almost zombie ability with XL engine capability (aka not like CN9s and HBKs), has more missile hardpoints and all in the best spots (compared to stuff like SHDs with less missiles and one or two stuck in head/CT), has ECM (which outright makes it better than a lot of em, as it's always great to have ECM in close range), and has JJs alongside (making it better than ANY non-JJ SRM skirmished).

So we need to buff the other SRM boats. Although HBK-4SP can disperse so much damage with SRMs, the issue is that it's not all at once, with the GRF-2N basically able to fire all SRMs at once, while 4SP basically has 4 but firing 2 and 2 (due to how fast it's cooldown is). However 4SP can't run XL well, doesn't have JJs, doesn't have insane hitboxes, doesn't have ECM, and so it's not as great and even further pushed down with 2N.

The Stormcrow, yeah I think remove the heat gen and add tiny bits of extra duration/cooldown. That'll do it. In fact just outright removing the heat gen might be ok, since not many would take the risk of doing 7 ER MLs, though maybe 6 ER ML + LPL. So it's gonna be a risk either way.

Dragon 1N is fine since it's a literal definition as glass cannon. So are Huginn, Grid Iron, etc.
The Firestarters might seem strong right this moment, but as soon as Arctic Cheetah comes in we're gonna feel a lot less strong. Trust me. Basically the Clan Firestarter, with Clan ER ML/SPL doing more damage/range + ECM.

[MikeBend]

I dont think new Griffin is a problem. To me its just a fat slow Raven-3L If you mount any missiles, you have to go STD engine, because of those huge torso missile tubes (Smaller than Hunchback Hunch, but still). But STD engine limits usefull tonnage pretty hard. So... 2 erll + XL and lurms? definately not op setup. STD + srm? Thats not the best use for ecm medium either. A very niche mech, definately not op.

[Steelfangs Draagun]

How about just leaving everything alone, and if you want to play against say a TMB-A then get one.
Nerf this buff that, just leave it as it comes and good players will adapt...simple eh.