11 replies to this topic

[Deadmeat313]

There has been a fair mix of joy and fretting on these interwebs since Russ announced in the Town Hall that Knockdowns are going to be prioritised for re-implementation soon after the release of CW. Lots of reasonable arguments have been forwarded both pro and con.

I thought I'd weigh in with a half-baked suggestion that literally came to me approx two minutes ago: Why don't we make knockdowns less black and white?

In Beta, the mechanic worked similarly to TT, in that it works on a binary principle. Either you are standing or you are knocked prone. Up or down. I propose that it does not need to be so simple. This is a computer game so we don't need to explain the rules to my cousin, and then figure out the 2D6 roll required etc.

We could have 3 or more "states", instead of just the two. The way I see it :

1) Standing. What we all have now in game. Normal movement etc.

2) Staggered. Knocked for six. Maybe down on one knee? Brief loss of control while the pilot stablilises the Mech. Possibly one arm rendered unusable as it is needed to hold the Mech from falling flat? The pilot then has the choice of taking the time to stand back up, or just staying in that position and firing his remaining weapons.

3) Down. Pole axed. Flat out. "What are you all lying down for?" One's Mech has been badly tripped and is lying flat out either on its back or belly. One could I guess still try to fire, but one's weapons will be pointing mostly straight down or straight up.


Getting up would not happen automatically. There needs to be a mapped key for that.

Also, I don't like the old "3rd Person Failure-Cam" that they had in Beta (as much fun as it was to have an out of body experience and watch your Mech teleporting around). You should stay in-cockpit the whole time. Maybe one of those unused screens could flash "You have fallen over, you nincompoop!"?

You should have a clue what's happened because you'll be looking at mud (or the sky). Bitchin' Betty could deadpan "You idiot. You idiot", over and over until you get up.

Sorry. Got a bit beyond myself there. Anyway, what do people think about the Staggering idea I've had? (badum-tish!)

The basic concept could be expanded to allow for other variables, such as differing fall characteristics for humanoid as opposed to digitrade Mechs. ie, The design of the Mech's legs might make it take shorter or longer times to stand up after a fall? Or, might make it easier for a Mech to be knocked over in the first place?

Also, Mechs with lower arm and hand actuators could possibly have an easier time of it.

What do you think?

D313

Edited by Deadmeat313, 16 November 2014 - 08:24 AM.

[orcrist86]

The real problem with knockdown is that it has the capability to be abused. There were lots of incidents of knockdown gang bang. There was also a weird flaw with one mech chassis being able to knock down all other mechs. To make knockdown viable it should only occur during very specific circumstances.
Jump Jet landing: an uncontrolled decent greater than 150% of max falling speed should result in a fall.
Ramming: two mechs hitting each other at full speed should have a chance at knockdown, a small one. 10% for a basic level chassis, 3% for master.
Damage: the take top row is insufficient here, so knock down should likely only occur during attack from kinetic weapons that do a total damage greater than a high threshold, something like a 20% chance of knockdown if you lose more than 25% of your mech health in 5 seconds.

The point is the mechanic should not have a guaranteed chance of success when used as a weapon, but should as negative effect for risky piloting. This avoids abuse if properly done.

[Toothless]

The thing is, impact for machines the size of battlemechs even at slower speeds would be absolutely catastrophic. While I like the idea of the mechanic returning, it also doesnt need to return in the way it was in beta by far.

[TimePeriod]

It should be a trade off. A very high-risk one at that.

Putting aside real life-psychics, there should be a limit to how large a foe you could knock over, maybe based on tonnage-ranges?

If you put somebody in a vulnerable situation you too should be in a very vulnerable situation.

[Deadmeat313]

I agree that Collisions need to be finely tuned within the game, certainly far better than they were in Beta.

My proposal was that there be more than the two binary outcomes of a collision. In my model, two Mechs collide :

a ) Both remain standing.
b ) One remains standing, one falls to the ground.
c ) Both fall to the ground.
d ) One remains standing, the other is staggered.
e ) Both are staggered.
f ) One is staggered, the other falls.

Condition : Staggered.
The Mech loses mobility,
Goes into a "stumble", crouch pose,
May use one arm to steady itself - the weapons on which are unusable until it stands,
Will be much more vulnerable to subsequent collisions. Far easier to knock over.

The condition would be removed by the "stand up" mapped key, which takes control of weapons + movement off the pilot for a second or so while the Mech restores its balance standing up.


For the pilot in a fallen Mech, the only real option is to try to get back up asap (unless he wants to power down and play dead). The pilot of a Staggered Mech will have lost mobility, but could choose to stay crouched and fire any available weapons at targets immediately in front of him. This might be the best course of action if he's got a cherry red CT Atlas standing right in front of him cycling its AC20.

D313

Edited by Deadmeat313, 16 November 2014 - 09:31 AM.

[orcrist86]

The problem with a third stage id's there is no stagger animation. The work to add that animation to every variant would be just awful. Falling animations have been added to every chassis even though they aren't used.

[Toothless]

I for one would really like a 'balancing' system in place where you have the ability to twist/turn your mech to keep it upright, and use indicators on your HUD to que you in on which direction to go. A minigame sort of, but also the actual representation of piloting skill, something that is left out in MWO.

[Alistair Winter]

You realize this thread is just going to devolve into knockdows vs no knockdowns, right?

orcrist86, on 16 November 2014 - 09:49 AM, said:

The problem with a third stage id's there is no stagger animation. The work to add that animation to every variant would be just awful. Falling animations have been added to every chassis even though they aren't used.

Pretty much this. A lot of extra work, a lot more expensive to do.

I don't mind the idea though. Stagger would be a nice penalty when someone just crashes into a mech standing still. But if they hit each other doing 80 kph, then they're both potentially knocked down.

[Brody319]

The way I see it, knock down is instant death for any mech really.
Lights lose their ability to dodge and move, and everyone else is basically just sitting there waiting for the enemy to punch them in the face. Mechs get up too fast and its pointless, they get up too slow and its basically death. So you will see builds with high velocity guns to blow people over and basically we get a juggling mechanic.

[Mothykins]

The only thing I don't like about it is it makes Chassis Like the Locust, Commando and Spider pretty... not good. Locust even more so than the others; It doesn't go fast enough to overcome that weight difference, so it's getting even more shafted. Again.

Playing most lights, I have friendly assaults/heavies push through me almost every match, and on the maps where the whole team starts in the same area (Forest,) I can start the match getting run over. With knockdowns, I can already see some derpface in a Victor cutting me off in the pass, knocking me down, and the rest of the team trampling over my Locust. There's also the "Use the light as a shield, push into his butt with a Atlas so he can't escape," which would result in dominoes.

In a perfect world, people would learn, I'd hope, but I think most people would just stop playing Lights and Mediums; playing a super fragile 'mech that falls over when you touch anything seems really bad, unless something was done to balance this. If you get knocked down by friendlies when trying to flee, yes, they're most likely going to target the Atlas that you faceplanted into, but you're effectively "legged" for an amount of time. You're not going to live long.

There needs to be some SERIOUS thought put into this so that it doesn't turn into more incentive to never play Lights and Mediums.

[Deadmeat313]

Alistair Winter, on 16 November 2014 - 10:02 AM, said:

You realize this thread is just going to devolve into knockdows vs no knockdowns, right?

Oh yeah.

I'm sort of on the fence about it myself. I loved falling in the original TT, but in that game Pilot Skill is just one of your dice roll modifiers. You as the player can choose whether or not to take the risk of putting your pilot in the position of having to make those risky maneuvers. You'd feel better about risking it if you knew your MechWarrior had a good Pilot skill.

In MWO there is no real way to determine Pilot skill, so we would all get the same arbitary "fall over" chance. It feels more like a punishment than a rewarding aspect of gameplay.

My OP is really an attempt to find a middle ground. A way that Mechs could be inconvenienced by collisions and ramming, but not just arbitarily KO'd.

I definitely think that collisions should cause significant damage to both parties though.

D313

Cavale, on 16 November 2014 - 10:12 AM, said:

The only thing I don't like about it is it makes Chassis Like the Locust, Commando and Spider pretty... not good. Locust even more so than the others; It doesn't go fast enough to overcome that weight difference, so it's getting even more shafted. Again.

Playing most lights, I have friendly assaults/heavies push through me almost every match, and on the maps where the whole team starts in the same area (Forest,) I can start the match getting run over. With knockdowns, I can already see some derpface in a Victor cutting me off in the pass, knocking me down, and the rest of the team trampling over my Locust. There's also the "Use the light as a shield, push into his butt with a Atlas so he can't escape," which would result in dominoes.

In a perfect world, people would learn, I'd hope, but I think most people would just stop playing Lights and Mediums; playing a super fragile 'mech that falls over when you touch anything seems really bad, unless something was done to balance this. If you get knocked down by friendlies when trying to flee, yes, they're most likely going to target the Atlas that you faceplanted into, but you're effectively "legged" for an amount of time. You're not going to live long.

There needs to be some SERIOUS thought put into this so that it doesn't turn into more incentive to never play Lights and Mediums.

So, you'd be in favour of a mechanic whereby a Mech was far more likely to just be Staggered by a collision, rather than falling flat on its face?

D313

[Kiryuin Ragyo]

Yay, now we gonna get a chance to roll-off the Fatlas from Rocky Mountains of Caustic Volly into bunch of enemy walking trash tin cans and get them steamrolled.