51 replies to this topic

[Gauvan]

pwnface, on 17 November 2014 - 02:07 PM, said:

If I'm understanding you correctly, you are asking for official ECM / LRM balance forums that would be reset every month. If this keeps it from flooding general discussion I'm all for it. There haven't been any significant changes to ECM or LRMs recently, many of the discussions regarding them have already happened in the past.

Well, I was thinking of a sticky thread in the General Discussion forum (e.g., November ECM Balance Thread), but actually having a Game Balance sub forum would be something to think about.

An argument against a sub forum is that it might be solving a different problem--I think the issue being discussed is every 24-48 hours a new thread is started on a small subset of issues, like ECM and LRMs, but if those 2-3 issues change over time then a sub forum would be a good idea. But if a new sub forum is created I don't think it should be reset, just moderated.

Added:

Also, while stuff has been talked to death for old timers there are always new players coming in. I'm not as much bothered by the talked to death aspect as the redundant threads in a short period and the number of these threads that are 75% argument between a tiny number of people.

Edited by Gauvan, 17 November 2014 - 03:33 PM.

[Funkadelic Mayhem]

Less QQ threads got the raven 3L nurfed.

Less QQ threads changed the gauss and PPCs

Less QQ change poptarting

Less QQ threads buffed just about every mech in the game and the lights got a bantha poodoo flavored lollypop.


LRMS are going to be "nurfed". If you dont mind how LRMS are, you ether use them and want your "no eyes on target, I canz make damagezezes" or you dont use them and it should not matter if they get nurfed or not.

[Slow and Decrepit]

A big part of this is due to the way we got to play back in the gaming zone where there was a open lobby where you could pick from "No LRMs", or "Lasers Only" kind of thing. With the way the present system is set up, it encourages all the QQ since we only have deathmatches. Players that play lights usually don't whine because they can outrun the LRMs(sometimes) while the one button high firepower slow mechs don't stand a chance in hell the minute they come out from cover. It's kinda funny cause it's OK if they boat A/C's/LL's but no one can boat LRM's! I think the reason they QQ is because they usually don't have a chance to even shoot back. By the time they come halfway to range you they are dead, while the rest of their team sits back and hides under cover. I see it all the time...

[pwnface]

Funkadelic Mayhem, on 17 November 2014 - 03:41 PM, said:

LRMS are going to be "nurfed". If you dont mind how LRMS are, you ether use them and want your "no eyes on target, I canz make damagezezes" or you dont use them and it should not matter if they get nurfed or not.

I don't use LRMs but I do care about them being useful and balanced in MWO. LRMs don't need a buff or nerf they need a rework of the mechanic that allows for a higher skill cap that can make it more useful at competitive levels of gameplay. Just because LRMs are currently bad and I don't use them, doesn't mean I don't want them to be viable in a future iteration of this game.

[RockmachinE]

The amount of threads is a clear indicator people are passionate about what LRMs are doing to this game. I'm one of them.

Nerf LRM rain!

[Abivard]

Moomtazz, on 17 November 2014 - 01:51 PM, said:

LMAO right it all a big conspiracy to keep the LRaMers down!

I noticed the only person that likes your thread is the person that knows what I said is true because he has asked mods to close or delete posts with opposed views, and then thanked them for locking and deleting said posts.

Which posts were then themselves deleted.

[Slow and Decrepit]

This reminds me of a smalll town city hall meeting where the issue at hand doesn't really matter as much as the politics behind it do!

[Vaderman]

Halcyon201, on 17 November 2014 - 01:57 PM, said:

Seriously OP, LRMs are subpar weapons individually but OP with universal shared targeting and don't have many effective counters including ECM (seen BAP recently?), AMS (holding an umbrella in a hurricane), cover (doesn't do anything on open maps or provide 360 degree protection), min range (190m. You have to be washing the guy's windshield for him), and most of all trying to find cover 24/7 with 360 degrees of protection.
I'm sick of reading threads about how LRM spam with free shared targeting isn't a problem and it is practically cake to fight against LRMs with the "countless 50 billion counters" players love to mention over and over.

If you agree with me and think that universal shared targeting makes LRMs bad and people should stop supporting how cheap they are right now please post an "Universal Shared Targeting is BAD" the next time you see a LRM R FINE L2PLAY thread.

P.S.
Complaining about complainers is about the highest form of forum irony you can achieve here. Congrats.

This. I've been saying pretty much the same thing.

This is the reason that on an individual user level they feel "meh", and at the same time they can be severely overpowering to a target when you have 5+ mechs lurming you.

LRMs are not an individual weapon, it's a team weapon basically. That is why balancing them is practically impossible until they look at the indirect fire mechanics and tone them down some.

Edited by Vaderman, 17 November 2014 - 04:28 PM.

[Lykaon]

ThisMachineKillsFascists, on 17 November 2014 - 01:44 PM, said:

And if its a bad weapon why not change the lrm Mechanic in favour to a more skill based lrm mechanic where they arent "bad"?

"skill based" mechanic? like moving a curser over a target and pressing a button?

Using an AC weapon requires the following.

Seeing a target (no need to have a sensor lock)
Putting the aiming reticule over the part you want to hit.
Press a button.

Complexities: You way need to lead the target if they are at extreme ranges.

Using LRMs

Get a sensor lock on the target and wait for the missile lock.(there are no "snap fire"LRM volley to speak of unlike ballistics)

press a button to launch

Retain the hard lock until the volley strikes (ECM/Sensor Dep. modules or good old fashion cover allowing.The ballistic weapon has already fired and hit by now)

Complications: Hard cover intercepts some/all of the volley (you probably should not have fired this salvo).AMS intercepts and destroys some/all of the volley.Due to the very slow speed of LRMs the target retires to hard cover and none of your volley strikes the target because there is an audio warning that missile are incoming ( I have never ever heard PPC warnings in MWo).ECM moves into the target's area and the lock is lost resulting in a missed volley.


My point is LRMs are no more skilless than firing an Autocannon.The skills used for LRM use are slightly different because you need to have an "eye" for trajectories and knowlege of map topography to be decent at indirect fire.The LRM user needs to be aware of where his team mates are (to get targeting data) and know where the enemy is (to know when to launch) and be aware of other factors like ECM possitions and concentrations of AMS.

[-Halcyon-]

pwnface, on 17 November 2014 - 02:24 PM, said:

Games should be balanced on the merit of the mechanics and NOT on the lowest common denominator. If something can be easily overcome by something as simple as COMMUNICATION, it shouldn't be rebalanced because certain players don't want to communicate.

They would communicate if they had in-game VOX.
Once combat starts you don't have the time to sit still in your mech furiously hammering your keys trying to coordinate tactics.

There is a reason high level clans don't type out all their communication during matches. They use vox.

[pwnface]

Lykaon, on 17 November 2014 - 04:40 PM, said:

"skill based" mechanic? like moving a curser over a target and pressing a button?

Using an AC weapon requires the following.

Seeing a target (no need to have a sensor lock)
Putting the aiming reticule over the part you want to hit.
Press a button.

Complexities: You way need to lead the target if they are at extreme ranges.

Using LRMs

Get a sensor lock on the target and wait for the missile lock.(there are no "snap fire"LRM volley to speak of unlike ballistics)

press a button to launch

Retain the hard lock until the volley strikes (ECM/Sensor Dep. modules or good old fashion cover allowing.The ballistic weapon has already fired and hit by now)

Complications: Hard cover intercepts some/all of the volley (you probably should not have fired this salvo).AMS intercepts and destroys some/all of the volley.Due to the very slow speed of LRMs the target retires to hard cover and none of your volley strikes the target because there is an audio warning that missile are incoming ( I have never ever heard PPC warnings in MWo).ECM moves into the target's area and the lock is lost resulting in a missed volley.


My point is LRMs are no more skilless than firing an Autocannon.The skills used for LRM use are slightly different because you need to have an "eye" for trajectories and knowlege of map topography to be decent at indirect fire.The LRM user needs to be aware of where his team mates are (to get targeting data) and know where the enemy is (to know when to launch) and be aware of other factors like ECM possitions and concentrations of AMS.

To be fair, you need to be able to aim with an autocannon, holding your reticle over an enemy square is significantly easier. In any case, even if you are an expert in LRMs other weapon types outperform LRMs consistently. The amount of skill it takes to use LRMs isn't reflected by a proportionate amount of damage. High damage LRM matches is mostly RNG in regards to AMS/ECM and having decent spotters.

Halcyon201, on 17 November 2014 - 04:44 PM, said:

They would communicate if they had in-game VOX.
Once combat starts you don't have the time to sit still in your mech furiously hammering your keys trying to coordinate tactics.

There is a reason high level clans don't type out all their communication during matches. They use vox.

Then why aren't you pushing for in game voice comms rather than talking about LRM balance in low ELO matches?

[-Halcyon-]

pwnface, on 17 November 2014 - 04:56 PM, said:

Then why aren't you pushing for in game voice comms rather than talking about LRM balance in low ELO matches?

Why aren't YOU also pushing for things that will actually improve this game instead of creating whine threads whining about whiners?

If they were going to give us in-game VOX, they would have done it already. I've pretty much given up on that. The only thing left is to balance the targeting mechanics.

[luxebo]

Why don't we do this: Poll everyone on the forums: Are LRMs OP? Two answers: Yes and No. Then we see what to do from there.

I wouldn't be surprised if Yes wins somehow.

[Moomtazz]

Lykaon, on 17 November 2014 - 04:40 PM, said:

"skill based" mechanic? like moving a curser over a target and pressing a button?

Using an AC weapon requires the following.

Seeing a target (no need to have a sensor lock)
Putting the aiming reticule over the part you want to hit.
Press a button.

Complexities: You way need to lead the target if they are at extreme ranges.

Using LRMs

Get a sensor lock on the target and wait for the missile lock.(there are no "snap fire"LRM volley to speak of unlike ballistics)

press a button to launch

Retain the hard lock until the volley strikes (ECM/Sensor Dep. modules or good old fashion cover allowing.The ballistic weapon has already fired and hit by now)

Complications: Hard cover intercepts some/all of the volley (you probably should not have fired this salvo).AMS intercepts and destroys some/all of the volley.Due to the very slow speed of LRMs the target retires to hard cover and none of your volley strikes the target because there is an audio warning that missile are incoming ( I have never ever heard PPC warnings in MWo).ECM moves into the target's area and the lock is lost resulting in a missed volley.


My point is LRMs are no more skilless than firing an Autocannon.The skills used for LRM use are slightly different because you need to have an "eye" for trajectories and knowlege of map topography to be decent at indirect fire.The LRM user needs to be aware of where his team mates are (to get targeting data) and know where the enemy is (to know when to launch) and be aware of other factors like ECM possitions and concentrations of AMS.

You LRaMers always like to talk about how easy it is to hit your target. Do you mean "hit somewhere on the enemy mech"? Because every time I spectate a LRM boat who has to defend himself up close it looks like someone put their 3 year old in the driver's seat.

[pwnface]

Halcyon201, on 17 November 2014 - 05:01 PM, said:

Why aren't YOU also pushing for things that will actually improve this game instead of creating whine threads whining about whiners?

If they were going to give us in-game VOX, they would have done it already. I've pretty much given up on that. The only thing left is to balance the targeting mechanics.

I HAVE pushed for things regarding game balance, including nerfing my own builds in the interest of fairer gameplay. It is just sickening to see 2 or 3 threads pop up everyday crying about LRMs when they aren't even effective at higher levels of gameplay. I'm not opposed to having the LRM mechanics reworked but hearing OMG LRM OP QQ is annoying and irrelevant to actual balance.

[Abivard]

Moomtazz, on 17 November 2014 - 05:05 PM, said:

You LRaMers always like to talk about how easy it is to hit your target. Do you mean "hit somewhere on the enemy mech"? Because every time I spectate a LRM boat who has to defend himself up close it looks like someone put their 3 year old in the driver's seat.

Well, I think that has more to do with very low Elo ratings, no one in those matches seems to be able to hit much of anything.
Also if that was the case that no one in an LRM armed mech can hit anything, wouldn't that make you even worse of a player when you can't even beat an LRM boat inside it's LRM range?

[Galenit]

ThisMachineKillsFascists, on 17 November 2014 - 01:44 PM, said:

Most lrm threads including mine do not that that they are op. Ppl get especially annoed by excessive lrm rain which forces you to play the "be patient and moove inch by inch forard with cower" game


Many ppl will agree that this kinda game play is pretty annoying.

If i do not move patient and move inch by inch forward with cower, the next dual gauss brings me more to the death then a salvo from a lrm boat.
Sometimes its pertty annoying, if you go our for 1 second and loose half the mech or a leg or being onehitted in a light, if missiles come, i have the chance to evade, my ams can eat some damage and if iam lucky, i will go out unharmed.

ThisMachineKillsFascists, on 17 November 2014 - 01:44 PM, said:

And why would so many ppl use lrm mechs especially during a challenge where a good match score counts if lrms are useless or a bad weapon?

3 reasons:
1. 7 Assists are enough to get it, lrms give more assists then they kill. Most mechs die to direct fire after the missiles have removed the armor.

2. Lots of new timbers and nearly none of them used ams but a lot of them bring clrms ....

3. Quirks and you see more mechs using a single launcher. If you see 2 catapults and 4 mechs with a single launcher, you have 8 launchers witch may have around 100-120 tubes. But none of them is a boat ...

Edited by Galenit, 17 November 2014 - 05:23 PM.

[PurpleNinja]

LRMs are OP.

[Moomtazz]

Abivard, on 17 November 2014 - 05:19 PM, said:

Well, I think that has more to do with very low Elo ratings, no one in those matches seems to be able to hit much of anything.
Also if that was the case that no one in an LRM armed mech can hit anything, wouldn't that make you even worse of a player when you can't even beat an LRM boat inside it's LRM range?

wtf are you talking about? do you even read bro?

[-Halcyon-]

pwnface, on 17 November 2014 - 05:12 PM, said:

I HAVE pushed for things regarding game balance, including nerfing my own builds in the interest of fairer gameplay. It is just sickening to see 2 or 3 threads pop up everyday crying about LRMs when they aren't even effective at higher levels of gameplay. I'm not opposed to having the LRM mechanics reworked but hearing OMG LRM OP QQ is annoying and irrelevant to actual balance.

Well they pop up because, again, the majority of these players aren't playing at higher levels in organized clans.
Either PGI gives us VOX or they change universal shared targeting.

If they did the latter, I would fully support buffing LRMs to 2x the damage they have now.