94 replies to this topic

[DEMAX51]

I just don't understand how some people have problems using buildings and hills as cover from LRMs. Cover seems to work just fine for me, and I highly doubt the missiles fired at me have a generally-different trajectory than the missiles fired at the OP.

The only causes I can think of regarding this "issue" are:

- The OP is not using "very high" cover like they think they are.
- The OP is using "very high" cover, but isn't standing close enough to the cover, which allows the missiles to still come in over it.
- The OP is massively exaggerating.

I would guess it's probably a combination of the three.

Edited by DEMAX51, 18 November 2014 - 09:28 AM.

[9erRed]

Greetings all,

These 'top attack' missile systems are using sensor activated single or dual HEAT type elements to specifically attack armoured vehicle's from the least protected locations. The top.
- Even being behind cover will not stop this type of attack.
(consider it 'LosTech' in this timeline. As it wasn't present in the 70's and early 80's when the game was designed.)

For this game and within the BattleTech system, the LRM's are using Armour piercing type of warheads. Possibly with a High explosive component added. But still directed at armour plating components, as there are few locations on Mech's that would equal the similar and thinner top armour of (present day) vehicles.

9erRed

[Joseph Mallan]

9erRed, on 18 November 2014 - 09:29 AM, said:

Greetings all,

These 'top attack' missile systems are using sensor activated single or dual HEAT type elements to specifically attack armoured vehicle's from the least protected locations. The top.
- Even being behind cover will not stop this type of attack.
(consider it 'LosTech' in this timeline. As it wasn't present in the 70's and early 80's when the game was designed.)

For this game and within the BattleTech system, the LRM's are using Armour piercing type of warheads. Possibly with a High explosive component added. But still directed at armour plating components, as there are few locations on Mech's that would equal the similar and thinner top armour of (present day) vehicles.

9erRed

80s Anime Missiles!

Straight lines my ash!

[Artgathan]

9erRed, on 18 November 2014 - 09:29 AM, said:

Greetings all,

These 'top attack' missile systems are using sensor activated single or dual HEAT type elements to specifically attack armoured vehicle's from the least protected locations. The top.
- Even being behind cover will not stop this type of attack.
(consider it 'LosTech' in this timeline. As it wasn't present in the 70's and early 80's when the game was designed.)

For this game and within the BattleTech system, the LRM's are using Armour piercing type of warheads. Possibly with a High explosive component added. But still directed at armour plating components, as there are few locations on Mech's that would equal the similar and thinner top armour of (present day) vehicles.

9erRed

Pretty sure the Javelin doesn't actually take it's target into account when fired in top-attack mode. It basically has an algorithm running in the missile that says 'when the booster activates, go up then fly toward the thing you were aimed at, then fly down'. The missile can be aimed at anything - it isn't limited to tracking vehicles, and it certainly isn't "intelligently aiming" at the least armored portion of the vehicle (which is what you've insinuated).

Whether or not it's LosTech is more debatable. I'm on the fence about whether Javelin-style missiles would be LosTech, given that I don't think there are rules to apply cover against indirect-LRM fire (suggesting that the LRMs come in at an angle where cover isn't an issue).

[IceSerpent]

Kilo 40, on 18 November 2014 - 06:14 AM, said:

Idiotic huh?

so missiles only go forward and don't change directions or altitude?

well ok then.

Missile changes directions or altitude by pointing its nose in that direction. So yes, it only goes forward. I haven't heard of anybody using missiles with some sort of maneuvering thrusters that allow for sideways motion.

[Joseph Mallan]

IceSerpent, on 18 November 2014 - 09:54 AM, said:

Missile changes directions or altitude by pointing its nose in that direction. So yes, it only goes forward. I haven't heard of anybody using missiles with some sort of maneuvering thrusters that allow for sideways motion.

Stop thinking real world physics and accept Anime Missile Physics!


These are the physics used for CBT Missiles!


These are the way Missiles would work if you had flat Trajectory. USELESS!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 18 November 2014 - 10:07 AM.

[IceSerpent]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 November 2014 - 09:57 AM, said:

Stop thinking real world physics and accept Anime Missile Physics!

But...they all go forward in that picture!

[WarPickle]

I'm guessing you people never saw a Javelin fired.. it comes out... heads up and drops straight down on a target...



If a shoulder fired missle can do this, why couldn't they do it on big stompy futuristic robots?

Edited by BasicInfantry, 18 November 2014 - 10:00 AM.

[C E Dwyer]

Kilo 40, on 17 November 2014 - 11:24 PM, said:

So, more like this?



but seriously, this isn't a game that takes place in 1944. Missiles aren't giant bottle rockets that just go forward.

*********************************************************************
Oh wait, I missed this part of your comment




You're the one whining bub. look in a mirror.

um yes there are its why long range missiles are only capable of being aimed at 1kilometer

[LauLiao]

Willard Phule, on 18 November 2014 - 04:26 AM, said:

Pardon my snarkiness, but I'm curious as to which military you served in as an Artilleryman to come up with that conclusion.

I only know how the US Army MLRS (Multiple Launch Rocket System) operates. They tend to fly on an arcing trajectory, to guarantee the fuse on the nose of the missle will actually impact what they're aiming at.

I only ask because I'm curious as to whether other militaries have come up with something different.

Funny how all the "forum experts" ignore the guy with real-world working knowledge.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Willard Phule, on 18 November 2014 - 04:26 AM, said:

Pardon my snarkiness, but I'm curious as to which military you served in as an Artilleryman to come up with that conclusion.

I only know how the US Army MLRS (Multiple Launch Rocket System) operates. They tend to fly on an arcing trajectory, to guarantee the fuse on the nose of the missle will actually impact what they're aiming at.

I only ask because I'm curious as to whether other militaries have come up with something different.

Well, as a (former) 13B, we had access to a cannon shell that could adjust it's trajectory to come nearly straight down without us needing the fire a high angle mission.

[RazorbeastFXK3]

Mortars don't have the ability to home in on targets. They just get launched and if their target moves.. well.. they don't hit the target.

Cowboyboots, on 17 November 2014 - 11:01 PM, said:

Either change the name to Long Range Mortars

LRMs work like Long Bows.. you have to aim a little higher in the air to reach a target that's down range from your position. Only difference is that with arrows, you usually have to offset your aim to the side if there's a stiff wind where LRMs have propulsion and guidance systems and fins that adjust their flight pattern.
Also.. do you have the slightest understanding as to "how missiles should behave" as there are many types out there in the real world compared to the types there are in videogames where each missile behaves differently according to their individual programs?

Cowboyboots, on 17 November 2014 - 11:01 PM, said:

or change the angle of attack to vaguely resemble how missiles should behave.

Steep cover is effective against missiles, you just have to be sure there isn't a long slope on your end to allow the LRMs to fan out from.

Cowboyboots, on 17 November 2014 - 11:01 PM, said:

There is no reason steep cover should not be effective against missiles, besides pandering to bad players.

My guess is the only way to "solve many of the complaints" would be to remove the climb ability of LRMs and burn them down to 'Line Of Sight' only types where if you can't see your target yourself.. you aren't going to touch them with your LRMs at all.

Cowboyboots, on 17 November 2014 - 11:01 PM, said:

This would solve many of the complaints against LRMs without resorting to altering their damage.

[Willard Phule]

Cathy, on 18 November 2014 - 11:02 AM, said:

um yes there are its why long range missiles are only capable of being aimed at 1kilometer

Might as well keep it up.....

Right now, today, we have missiles that can be "aimed" (locked) and fired at far more than a kilometer. And they track much, much better than what's in the game.

Why mention that?

Because of the lore and timeline of the BT universe. At one point, prior to the Exodus, the Inner Sphere had MUCH better technology than they do today. There were FOUR succession wars, each one depleted the Great House's ability to produce technology. They lost the ability to make ER energy weapons, Ultra ACs, LBx ACs, Gauss Rifles, XL engines, Double Heat Sinks....all of that. It was gone for HUNDREDS of years.

During the time where technology was declining, they lost a lot of targeting and communications technology as well. This is where the 1000m range on LRMs comes from (actually, the BT range is 21 hexes. Each hex is 30m. My math may be wrong, that that comes out as 610m to me).

Also keep in mind that the Ares Convention of 2412 was designed to reduce civilian casualties and damage. Perhaps one of the reasons for the shortened range and the fact that the missiles explode after hitting maximum range is the reflection of that agreement.

[Tombstoner]

What does the range part of LRM have to do with angle of attack? Personayl i would love to see angle of attack related to range to target. thus to hit a target at max range the attack angle must be 45 degrees. for closer ranges the angle would go up or down depending on the type of attack you want to make.... high angle is slower to target but clears obstacles. where as direct fire is faster.

Over all since PGI increased just about everything with a range greater then 1k from TT. the LRM stands needing a range buff to 2000 meters.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Artgathan, on 18 November 2014 - 09:36 AM, said:

Pretty sure the Javelin doesn't actually take it's target into account when fired in top-attack mode. It basically has an algorithm running in the missile that says 'when the booster activates, go up then fly toward the thing you were aimed at, then fly down'. The missile can be aimed at anything - it isn't limited to tracking vehicles, and it certainly isn't "intelligently aiming" at the least armored portion of the vehicle (which is what you've insinuated).

Whether or not it's LosTech is more debatable. I'm on the fence about whether Javelin-style missiles would be LosTech, given that I don't think there are rules to apply cover against indirect-LRM fire (suggesting that the LRMs come in at an angle where cover isn't an issue).

The Javelin is looking for a target thats actively being lased (useful on bunkers/buildings) or a target that's been selected via thermal targeting (allows fire and forget on tanks).

[Willard Phule]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 18 November 2014 - 11:09 AM, said:

Well, as a (former) 13B, we had access to a cannon shell that could adjust it's trajectory to come nearly straight down without us needing the fire a high angle mission.

Yeah yeah yeah. I was an ATC for an M777A1 crew. I get it. But, that's tube launch arty and you're talking about the Excalibur round. They're only about a million bucks and you've got to crawl under the truck after firing so you don't get hit with the casing as it comes back.

Have you ever seen the MLRS guys out practicing when you were out there?

We did a field problem up at Yakima one fall and we had an MLRS crew set up shop about 600m to our rear. Since I was the 1SG's driver, we went up to check them out. Turns out that their practice rounds are just telephone poles with rocket engines on them. Even firing telephone poles, it's impressive as hell to watch 'em kick out multiple rockets all at once.

[Tombstoner]

RazorbeastFXK3, on 18 November 2014 - 11:12 AM, said:

Mortars don't have the ability to home in on targets. They just get launched and if their target moves.. well.. they don't hit the target.

Mortars and artillery can be fitted with GPS guidance systems... no reason cameras cant be added or laser targeting systems. The only 2 reason i can think of is high g forces breaking the electronics and cost.

[Willard Phule]

RazorbeastFXK3, on 18 November 2014 - 11:12 AM, said:

Mortars don't have the ability to home in on targets. They just get launched and if their target moves.. well.. they don't hit the target.

Not entirely true.

There exists today a round that will home in on a target that a forward observer is designating with a laser. There are tube-fired artillery rounds that'll do the same thing (that Excalibur I was babbling about).

RazorbeastFXK3, on 18 November 2014 - 11:12 AM, said:

My guess is the only way to "solve many of the complaints" would be to remove the climb ability of LRMs and burn them down to 'Line Of Sight' only types where if you can't see your target yourself.. you aren't going to touch them with your LRMs at all.

One of the more intelligent suggestions I've seen has to do with the addition of Artemis.

If the LRM launcher in question does not have Artemis, the missiles take a high arc (and thus longer to reach) to the target.

If the launcher DOES have Artemis and the target is in line of sight, then they take a flatter trajectory.

Makes sense to me.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Artgathan, on 18 November 2014 - 09:16 AM, said:

Check out "Javelin Missile Top Attack" - I think your conception of how missiles "must" behave is flawed.

Our LRMs arent Javelins....they are semi guided missiles......

For the purpose of balance, while making LRMs useful, would be to make them rather flat trajectory unless aimed at a mech with NARC or TAG.......which would also make NARC and TAG useful. Its win-win....plus, it promotes teamwork. And since Lights are usually the mechs who would most likely carry that, it gives lights a bit more use on the field. Plus, since LRMs wouldnt be all omnipotent rockets, it would make them situational, and not that great solo, but teamed up and with some NARC support, very deadly. So we would still get our daily QQ LRMs OP, and QQ LRMs UP, while making them more balanced...

[RazorbeastFXK3]

Yep, Mechwarrior 2: Mercenaries (The game that got me started with Mechwarrior) had their LRMs reach 630 meters. I never followed the lore or got into BattleTech but the game still fascinates me with how it works.

Willard Phule, on 18 November 2014 - 11:12 AM, said:

During the time where technology was declining, they lost a lot of targeting and communications technology as well. This is where the 1000m range on LRMs comes from (actually, the BT range is 21 hexes. Each hex is 30m. My math may be wrong, that that comes out as 610m to me).