74 replies to this topic

[The Boz]

Lexx, on 18 November 2014 - 02:48 AM, said:

2 LRM 20s is much better than 4 LRM 10s, because you can fire them all in one salvo and if you put artemis on them it only adds 2 tons. Artemis is definitely worth it since it speeds up your lock-on time and tightens up the missile grouping.

1. No, really, 2xLRM10+Artemis is better than 1xLRM20+Artemis. EVEN IF the LRM20 is 10% cooler, fires faster, and is two slots and two tons lighter. Also, it is less volatile. And it can be fired in one salvo, or you can chain fire to induce massive cockpit shake that annoys laser boats to no end.
2. Why the hell do you place LRMs in the arms if you can place them in the far less vulnerable side torsos?

[Lexx]

The Boz, on 18 November 2014 - 03:01 AM, said:

1. No, really, 2xLRM10+Artemis is better than 1xLRM20+Artemis. EVEN IF the LRM20 is 10% cooler, fires faster, and is two slots and two tons lighter. Also, it is less volatile. And it can be fired in one salvo, or you can chain fire to induce massive cockpit shake that annoys laser boats to no end.
2. Why the hell do you place LRMs in the arms if you can place them in the far less vulnerable side torsos?

The side torsos only have 6 missile ports. If you put the LRM 20s there it breaks the salvo into 4 parts.

I prefer to put my LRM 20s in the slot that's actually designed to hold an LRM 20 instead of shoehorning them into a slot designed for an SRM 6. The more concentrated salvo gets through AMS much better and gives the enemy less time to get behind cover.

I do pretty good in my Stalker 3H. I used to for less than half the weekend tournament, but it helped me score high enough to take first place for lone wolves.

Edited by Lexx, 18 November 2014 - 03:14 AM.

[Abivard]

The Boz, on 18 November 2014 - 02:27 AM, said:

10% LRM20 cooldown and heat generation does not make it more attractive than two LRM10s. Not even close.

Shall we examine the cold hard facts here?

LRM 20 on a stalker H, heat is 4.8 and cooldown is 3.8 available tubes 20

2x LRM 10's, Heat 7.2 cooldown 3.375

now lets us look at that mech with:

2xLRM20's, heat 9.6 per alpha no ghost heat, cool down 3.8 each LRM20 has a 20 tube mount. Alpha 40, no missile bay doors.

4x LRM10's Heat 14.2+ ghost heat 4.26 = 18,46 cool down 3.375 2 LRM10's are mounted in 20tube mounts and 2xLRM10 in 6 tube mounts. Alpha launch equals 32+8, 12 of initial alpha are subject to missile bay door timer/vulnerability.

If cooldown modules are equipped the LRM20 gains a greater reduction then the LRM10 does. 3.8 to 3.344 vs the lrm10 of 3.375 to 2.97

The LRM 10 mech produces what is DOUBLE the heat per alpha. for a staggered launch and 10% torso armor reduction.

So explain to me your reasoning why the 4xLRM10's are better than the 2xLRM20's?

[Widowmaker1981]

Abivard, on 18 November 2014 - 03:12 AM, said:

So explain to me your reasoning why the 4xLRM10's are better than the 2xLRM20's?

most likely because he thinks Chainfired LRMs are better than groupfired, as they ARE more annoying (if you dont have AMS) - but also less effective.

[Abivard]

Remarius, on 18 November 2014 - 02:56 AM, said:

This thread is full of so much made up information its untrue. *facepalm*



Wait one mech plays exactly as they should and the other doesn't? What a surprise... one does better!

So you would charge across open terrain at an LRM boat when you know there are more LRM boats around?

A scenario of one mech vs multiple mechs is a usually a losing scenario no matter the weapons. But even if the LRM mechs were 2 and the laser mech one, the laser mech would still win the vast majority of the time..

In any case you have it all backwards, the LRM stalker does everything correctly while the Laser mech does everything incorrectly, yet the laser boat still wins in a one on one situation, even though every bias was in the LRM mechs favor, except each was a good pilot and a good shot.

Edited by Abivard, 18 November 2014 - 03:33 AM.

[Abivard]

Widowmaker1981, on 18 November 2014 - 03:15 AM, said:

most likely because he thinks Chainfired LRMs are better than groupfired, as they ARE more annoying (if you dont have AMS) - but also less effective.

chain fired 4 x lrm10's are worse than the 2xLRM20's chainfired,

Edited by Abivard, 18 November 2014 - 03:35 AM.

[MechWarrior849305]

EvilCow, on 18 November 2014 - 02:34 AM, said:

It is not how it goes.

Laser Stalker fires the weapons and starts advancing.
Missile stalker acquires lock and all the other missile boats in 1km radius too.
Laser Stalker disintegrates.

Oh-oh-oh-owww
Okay, assume 12 LRM stalkers vs 12 LL stalkers. Both teams focus fire, OK.
500m away between teams, no cover, fully visible.
First LRM stalker get lock against first LL stalker. Every and each of LRM boat get shared lock and fire missiles toward enemy LL boat. OK, 3 seconds fly path.
12 LL stalkers focus fire on first LRM boat. LRM boat evaporates in a half duration of a single alpha of 48 Large Lasers.
12 ams shoot down 20% of how many? 480 LRMs? OK, maybe this will even kill first LL stalker. Keyword "Maybe"

[Abivard]

DuoAngel, on 18 November 2014 - 03:38 AM, said:

Oh-oh-oh-owww
Okay, assume 12 LRM stalkers vs 12 LL stalkers. Both teams focus fire, OK.
500m away between teams, no cover, fully visible.
First LRM stalker get lock against first LL stalker. Every and each of LRM boat get shared lock and fire missiles toward enemy LL boat. OK, 3 seconds fly path.
12 LL stalkers focus fire on first LRM boat. LRM boat evaporates in a half duration of a single alpha of 48 Large Lasers.
12 ams shoot down 20% of how many? 480 LRMs? OK, maybe this will even kill first LL stalker. Keyword "Maybe"

the time to target of LRM's at 500 M is 3.33 seconds. plus a cooldown of 3.8 seconds vs
the 1 second laser duration and 2.6 seconds cooldown of the large lasers.

The initial exchange would go like this:
48 large lasers would do 864 points of pinpoint damage vs the
24 LRM20 launchers that would do 380 to 480 max points of widely spread damage.

The laser mechs do not need to hit the target key, so in the first second they have all alpha'd and hit.

The LRM mechs at the fastest take 2 seconds to target and lock + an additional 3.33 seconds for the missiles to hit.

At about the 3.7 second mark the laser mechs are able to make a second alpha that has a one second duration. the LRM's still have over a half second travel time after the laser beam ends.

1 second after the first volley of LRM's hits a second volley of LRM's could be launched, again with over a 3 second flight path. However it is highly probable that 2 LRM mechs are dead leaving 10 for a throw weight of 400 LRM's of which maybe 20% are destroyed by AMS.

1 second after the LRM mechs fired their second volley the laser mechs fire again,killing another LRM mech making it 12 lasers vs 9 LRM



as the second wave of LRM's hits and probably kills a single laser mech the now 11 untouched Laser mechs will have alpha'd again, for 396 points of PP damage, killing their 4th LRM mech.

Can you see the pattern that is going on here yet?

Edited by Abivard, 18 November 2014 - 04:17 AM.

[EvilCow]

The 12 lasers stalkers would need line of sight, fat chance, missile boats could be as well doing gardening until it is time to launch missiles.

[Lily from animove]

Widowmaker1981, on 18 November 2014 - 03:15 AM, said:

most likely because he thinks Chainfired LRMs are better than groupfired, as they ARE more annoying (if you dont have AMS) - but also less effective.

higher rate of fire, more density of the shots. generally lrm 10s are better, sure they cause a bit more heat, but it's not that horribly much more. at clanmechs even more important to bring shots through ams. and have a shorter fireduration granting the opponent less time to evade the missiles.

[The Boz]

I forgot to check the tubes, my mistake. Still, 10s have tighter grouping, and the only thing that makes them less attractive in salvo fire is nearly double the heat... And I can't remember the last time I had heat problems in an LRM boat.

Widowmaker1981, on 18 November 2014 - 03:15 AM, said:

most likely because he thinks Chainfired LRMs are better than groupfired, as they ARE more annoying (if you dont have AMS) - but also less effective.

The 10 is FAR superior when it comes to chain suppression fire. Slightly less effective against AMS, but they do work wonders in a support role (you and another mech up close vs # of enemy mechs, you make sure that one of them has a really hard time of fighting back).

[Abivard]

The Boz, on 18 November 2014 - 04:13 AM, said:

I forgot to check the tubes, my mistake. Still, 10s have tighter grouping, and the only thing that makes them less attractive in salvo fire is nearly double the heat... And I can't remember the last time I had heat problems in an LRM boat.

The 10 is FAR superior when it comes to chain suppression fire. Slightly less effective against AMS, but they do work wonders in a support role (you and another mech up close vs # of enemy mechs, you make sure that one of them has a really hard time of fighting back).

it is also an extra 3 tons for 4xlrm10's vs 2xLRM20's

[Abivard]

EvilCow, on 18 November 2014 - 04:00 AM, said:

The 12 lasers stalkers would need line of sight, fat chance, missile boats could be as well doing gardening until it is time to launch missiles.

If the Laser stalkers have no LOS neither would the 12 LRM mechs, no LOS means cover from the LRM's which means not even 1 LASER stalker would die while all 12 LRM mechs would die as the laser mechs could easily crest to fire than back into cover before any locks could be achieved, if by some miracle the LRM mechs did achieve lock they would have lost it before the LRM's had traveled 200 Meters.

LRM's need to have spotted a mech in order to target it, I have no idea how you THINK LRM's work but I do know you are not correct in your thinking.

[Joseph Mallan]

EvilCow, on 18 November 2014 - 02:34 AM, said:

It is not how it goes.

Laser Stalker fires the weapons and starts advancing.
Missile stalker acquires lock and all the other missile boats in 1km radius too.
Laser Stalker disintegrates.

How Missiles should be working! There is nothing wrong with team work good sir.

[The Boz]

Abivard, on 18 November 2014 - 04:24 AM, said:

it is also an extra 3 tons for 4xlrm10's vs 2xLRM20's

2 tons with Artemis, 0 tons otherwise.

Edited by The Boz, 18 November 2014 - 04:43 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

The Boz, on 18 November 2014 - 04:42 AM, said:

2 tons with Artemis, 0 tons otherwise.

The faster reload time makes up for the tonnage in my opinion. 3 LRM5s throw more damage than an LRM15 due to reload time. Even more so over an LRM20 v 4 LRM5s.

[Abivard]

Strong Female Role Model, on 18 November 2014 - 02:40 AM, said:

STK-3H

STK-4N

This is probably where you want to be with your respective Stalker LL and LRM boats.



Stick with 4 LL. You can fire almost nonstop for minutes on end.

Well I feel that the laser build doesn't need bap and could use the extra 1.5 tons for AMS
The LRM version would benefit more by stripping the LRM5's and 2 tons of ammo off and adding BAP, which is a must have for LRM boats, as well 4 more heat sinks. OR add BAP, 2 heatsinks and artemis.

The Boz, on 18 November 2014 - 04:42 AM, said:

2 tons with Artemis, 0 tons otherwise.

you are correct, hit the 3 instead of the 2 heh, good catch.

[Joey Tankblaster]

How accurate can the laser boat return fire under constant screen shake from 4xLRM10?

[Widowmaker1981]

To be perfectly honest, i think all the LRM hate comes from brawlers who want to play all up in your face brawly brawly all the time, they hate that when they try that they get targeted and smashed by LRMs (though that SHOULD go both ways, unless brawly guy doesnt want to target his enemy for some odd reason)

I, personally, like that LRM mechanics inhibit people from doing that too much, because i don't find the game at all fun when its just a big clusterf**k brawl. And these days i only personally use LRMs when im playing my warhawks..

Joey Tankblaster, on 18 November 2014 - 04:56 AM, said:

How accurate can the laser boat return fire under constant screen shake from 4xLRM10?

I do think that LRM screenshake should be substantially reduced, if not close to removed.

[The Boz]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 November 2014 - 04:48 AM, said:

The faster reload time makes up for the tonnage in my opinion. 3 LRM5s throw more damage than an LRM15 due to reload time. Even more so over an LRM20 v 4 LRM5s.

Exactly what I'm saying here. Even with extra weight and heat, 4x10 is better than 2x20.