46 replies to this topic

[Damascas]

I am glad to see a faction actually reaching into it's roots on this. More points towards me joining Liao.

Edited by Damascas, 12 July 2012 - 10:30 AM.

[Neenja]

One of the key issues I have with the Capellan Confederation is the over-arching mentality where the end justifies any means whatsoever, and absolute loyalty is enforced in an absolute manner.

You can point to the concepts of strong family values, national pride, and hard work that are listed in positively-slanted information packets or propaganda... but at the end of the day, it is still a hardline police state where citizens must cope with the fear that anyone and everyone could be working for or with the Maskirovka, who are always eager to violently remind the people that their loyalty must be absolute. The Maskirovka itself is a fractured, schizophrenic "intelligence" organization that employs a heavy mix of terrorism and thug-mentality with no regards to wartime conventions or civilian casualties, oftentimes considering these as positives for helping to prove a point.

At any given time, any member of House Liao on the throne is either bat**** crazy (Romano is off her rocker, no matter what any propaganda produced by the Sian press says), or pretending to be so that their enemies fear mutually-assured destruction. Sun-Tzu, despite being shockingly sane, is a ruthless tyrant who uses terrorism, civilian murder, and propaganda to incite violence against anyone he perceives as a foe. He may have saved the Capellan Confederation from the brink of self-destruction, but he accomplished this through aggressive and opportunistic backstabbing in an Inner Sphere that was struggling to unite in the face of annihilation by the Clans. I would consider him less evil than Katherine Steiner if it weren't for his enthusiastically high civilian body count.

Plus, the absurd deification of there leaders does nothing to keep the Capellan population from looking like a bunch of cowardly sheep. The number of violent cults involved in direct worship of members of House Liao seems to increase with every year...

- Note: This is not to say that other Great Houses haven't had similar problems... The Kuritas are rather famous for unapologetically slaughtering large civilian populations as well.

Edited by Neenja, 12 July 2012 - 10:29 AM.

[Neenja]

IMTatsu, on 12 July 2012 - 04:11 AM, said:

I wouldn't put Candace in the same category as Hitler or Khan in the genocide column . . . There's been some purging (read as 'cleansing') of the ranks, so I guess you could technically paint that as murder en masse . . .

Is this supposed to be "Romano"?

[Felix Drummond]

Neenja, on 12 July 2012 - 10:28 AM, said:

One of the key issues I have with the Capellan Confederation is the over-arching mentality where the end justifies any means whatsoever, and absolute loyalty is enforced in an absolute manner.

You can point to the concepts of strong family values, national pride, and hard work that are listed in positively-slanted information packets or propaganda... but at the end of the day, it is still a hardline police state where citizens must cope with the fear that anyone and everyone could be working for or with the Maskirovka, who are always eager to violently remind the people that their loyalty must be absolute. The Maskirovka itself is a fractured, schizophrenic "intelligence" organization that employs a heavy mix of terrorism and thug-mentality with no regards to wartime conventions or civilian casualties, oftentimes considering these as positives for helping to prove a point.

At any given time, any member of House Liao on the throne is either bat**** crazy (Romano is off her rocker, no matter what any propaganda produced by the Sian press says), or pretending to be so that their enemies fear mutually-assured destruction. Sun-Tzu, despite being shockingly sane, is a ruthless tyrant who uses terrorism, civilian murder, and propaganda to incite violence against anyone he perceives as a foe. He may have saved the Capellan Confederation from the brink of self-destruction, but he accomplished this through aggressive and opportunistic backstabbing in an Inner Sphere that was struggling to unite in the face of annihilation by the Clans. I would consider him less evil than Katherine Steiner if it weren't for his enthusiastically high civilian body count.

Plus, the absurd deification of there leaders does nothing to keep the Capellan population from looking like a bunch of cowardly sheep. The number of violent cults involved in direct worship of members of House Liao seems to increase with every year...

- Note: This is not to say that other Great Houses haven't had similar problems... The Kuritas are rather famous for unapologetically slaughtering large civilian populations as well.

And all this is coming from ... a Davion supporter ... that should actually be enough to rest my case, but lets see ...

there have been in total 28 Chancellors of House Liao of which there was one absolutely mad (Kalvin Liao), one that went mad at the end of his reign (Maximilian Liao) and one that was mentally unstable and suffered from severe paranoia (Romano Liao). That leaves 25 normal Liao Chancellors, some were weak leaders, some mediocre and some were strong and brilliant. All in all the majority of the Liao Chancellors did their job well.

Basicly your post is comprised of 100% Davion propaganda, which always likes to paint its hereditary enemies (Liao and Kurita) in black.

Michael Stackpole wrote most BT novels from the view of House Davion, naturally he needed to create a negative image of House Davions enemies to make the story work. While the novels are entertaining they aren't great literary works and follow a pretty predictive pattern of the classical good guy vs bad guy scheme.

More then once I've thought since I began to read R.R. Martins books (the guy who wrote Game of Thrones) that he could have made so much more out of the BT Storyline, then Stackpole did.

But anyhow, the NEW source books published by catalyst games give a much better and fairer picture of the BT universe, which is why I would recommend reading them if you are really interested.

Edited by Felidae, 12 July 2012 - 03:28 PM.

[Daidachi]

If you're looking at canon, I would actually argue that the Lyran Commonwealth - specifically Loki, are far worse when it comes to obvious mistreatment of it's own citizens than other, more professional intelligence agencies.

Also, if this were really going to play out like canon, the Lyrans would be far too worried about being social generals, and basing plans off of the political connections of those proposing it to actually put up any decent strategy.

That sounds boring as bats*** to me, in all honesty. And the same, no doubt to most of the House Steiner players.

Lay the groundwork, set the scene. Let the players take care of the rest. You've read the story - now write the new one, rather than reliving the past.

That said, I do like a good read - thanks for posting the info OP.

[IMTatsu]

Neenja, on 12 July 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:

Is this supposed to be "Romano"?

It was. I humbly apologize for my fit of overzealous posting.

Thanks for the catch . . .

>:{

Edited by IMTatsu, 13 July 2012 - 04:46 AM.

[RhymenoserousRex]

IMTatsu, on 11 July 2012 - 08:58 PM, said:

Definately not a pretty method, but history has proven it effective. Don't confuse 'Good' with 'Effective'. Read some Machiavelli. The best methods to correct the path of a given civilization are rarely the most popular, or ethical.

>:{

I find it amusing that people quote Machiavelli over and over again on this and that and never seem to realize that his works were meant to be satire.

[grimzod]

Daidachi, on 12 July 2012 - 11:14 PM, said:

If you're looking at canon, I would actually argue that the Lyran Commonwealth - specifically Loki, are far worse when it comes to obvious mistreatment of it's own citizens than other, more professional intelligence agencies.

Also, if this were really going to play out like canon, the Lyrans would be far too worried about being social generals, and basing plans off of the political connections of those proposing it to actually put up any decent strategy.

That sounds boring as bats*** to me, in all honesty. And the same, no doubt to most of the House Steiner players.

Lay the groundwork, set the scene. Let the players take care of the rest. You've read the story - now write the new one, rather than reliving the past.

That said, I do like a good read - thanks for posting the info OP.

Touche.

Also, the Lyrans are better at blaming others when it comes to murdering their own citizens. The Liao leadership simply don't care to hide the fact that their Chancellors are often homicidal maniacs.

[IMTatsu]

RhymenoserousRex, on 13 July 2012 - 05:45 AM, said:

I find it amusing that people quote Machiavelli over and over again on this and that and never seem to realize that his works were meant to be satire.

Read it as satire, truth, fiction, comedy or as a children's bedtime story, there cowboy. Regardless of how it was written, the important fact is the reality those words had upon the individuals who took direction from them for more than simple satire.

>:{

[Noaceik]

Felidae, on 12 July 2012 - 03:26 PM, said:

And all this is coming from ... a Davion supporter ... that should actually be enough to rest my case, but lets see ...

there have been in total 28 Chancellors of House Liao of which there was one absolutely mad (Kalvin Liao), one that went mad at the end of his reign (Maximilian Liao) and one that was mentally unstable and suffered from severe paranoia (Romano Liao). That leaves 25 normal Liao Chancellors, some were weak leaders, some mediocre and some were strong and brilliant. All in all the majority of the Liao Chancellors did their job well.

Basicly your post is comprised of 100% Davion propaganda, which always likes to paint its hereditary enemies (Liao and Kurita) in black.

Michael Stackpole wrote most BT novels from the view of House Davion, naturally he needed to create a negative image of House Davions enemies to make the story work. While the novels are entertaining they aren't great literary works and follow a pretty predictive pattern of the classical good guy vs bad guy scheme.

More then once I've thought since I began to read R.R. Martins books (the guy who wrote Game of Thrones) that he could have made so much more out of the BT Storyline, then Stackpole did.

But anyhow, the NEW source books published by catalyst games give a much better and fairer picture of the BT universe, which is why I would recommend reading them if you are really interested.

[Noaceik]

House marik was also shown in the black, because the story books were writen durring the federated comonwealth start through finish. So all none davion suporters received a black card even mercs, look what they did to the grey death legion? That is my only problem with FASA they focused only on the Davion side. except a few clan books and, 2 liao, 1 marik, and maybe 3 kurita.

[Bastard Ken]

When this faction here was first being founded there were 8 nations. The nations were plagued by bandits. They were fed up with this taxation without representation, so some of them stood up and said “Liberty or death.” Though I went to a Comstar school over here in Terra, Sol, the telephone man made the mistake of letting me read his history books. He made the mistake of teaching me that Patrick Henry was a patriot, and George Washington -- wasn’t nothing nonviolent about old Pat or George Washington. “Liberty or death” was what brought about the freedom of nations in this country from the Davions. They didn’t care about the odds. Why they faced the wrath of the entire Federated Suns. And in those days they used to say that the Federated Suns was so vast and so powerful when the sun would never set on them. This is how big it was, yet these 8 little, scrawny states, tired of taxation without representation, tired of being exploited and oppressed and degraded, told that big Federated Suns “Liberty or death.”
And here you have 22 billion Sino-Russian Capellan people today catching more hell than Patrick Henry ever saw. And I’m here to tell you, in case you don’t know it, that you got a new generation of Capellan people in this country who don’t care anything whatsoever about odds. They don’t want to hear you old Maximilian Laio handkerchief heads talking about the odds. No. This is a new generation. If they’re gonna draft these young Capellan men and send them over to Lyran or Draconis Space to face Clanners -- if you’re not afraid of those odds, you shouldn’t be afraid of these odds.

[Anders]

A Violent Leader.
"It's only cleansing", they say
The trains run on time.

[Neenja]

IMTatsu, on 13 July 2012 - 04:44 AM, said:

It was. I humbly apologize for my fit of overzealous posting.

Thanks for the catch . . .

>:{

Heh, I was just confused and wracking my brain to figure out when Candace Liao had committed atrocities....

Felidae, on 12 July 2012 - 03:26 PM, said:

But anyhow, the NEW source books published by catalyst games give a much better and fairer picture of the BT universe, which is why I would recommend reading them if you are really interested.

I'll admit I have a bit of catching up to do, that's for sure. The only problem is that the FASA books are officially marked as canon, so they can't just be ignored. And the books are overall better at demonstrating the actual play-by-play of the mentality and personalities of many BattleTech characters rather than semi-generalized summaries, snippets, or excerpts.

Also, I was pretty neutral towards the Capellans in the Stackpole stuff. As you said, they were a little too cartoony to truly take seriously. When I read the Capellan Solution arc by Loren L. Coleman (as well as some minor stuff in Victor Milan's books for the Camacho's Caballeros), that's when I really got disillusioned with the entire system of the Capellan Confederation.

grimzod, on 13 July 2012 - 04:19 PM, said:

Also, the Lyrans are better at blaming others when it comes to murdering their own citizens. The Liao leadership simply don't care to hide the fact that their Chancellors are often homicidal maniacs.

Straight-up massacres are few and far between outside of Capellan and Kurita rulers. The Lyrans however, are damn good at just ignoring the rights of their citizens whenever they would be inconvenient for the desires of the noble class. I should probably throw something in here about the FWL just to make sure I dislike everyone equally... But since the only reason it even seems to exist is to provide a haven for WoB, I can't really bring myself to care too much.

In response the accusations that I'm a Davion supporter: I find them to be just as war-obsessed and treacherous as pretty much every other ruling house in the Inner Sphere (with a particular dislike of Hanse). However, I liked Victor Steiner-Davion's character quite a bit, so I'm throwing my support behind that house until the Clans become an option or something.

[Vandal]

That's a pretty odd thing to say considering the Clans are just as terrible, if not more so.

Battletech: Everybody is the worst and good times aren't allowed.

[Neenja]

Nah, the Crusader and Mongol factions were the only ones that were really that bad. Wolf, Ghost Bear, Nova Cat, etc., were all (relatively) restrained.

[Vandal]

Neenja, on 16 July 2012 - 05:42 PM, said:

Nah, the Crusader and Mongol factions were the only ones that were really that bad. Wolf, Ghost Bear, Nova Cat, etc., were all (relatively) restrained.

Their entire society is still based on a caste and eugenics WARRIOR SOCIETY system that is dumb as all hell, though. They were incapable of running the territory they conquered because they had no clue how to handle infrastructure or politics, since they were all literally football players separated into different football clubs.

[IMTatsu]

Vandal, on 17 July 2012 - 04:41 AM, said:

Their entire society is still based on a caste and eugenics WARRIOR SOCIETY system that is dumb as all hell, though. They were incapable of running the territory they conquered because they had no clue how to handle infrastructure or politics, since they were all literally football players separated into different football clubs.

Tread lightly, young grasshopper. I know a few football players who might enjoy 'debating' you into a retraction.

>:{

[Neenja]

The Clan genetics program is weird, and its effectiveness has been called into question several times, but it's hardly "evil". They also had very little trouble with infrastructure or government functions, not sure where you're getting that from. The only times they really had trouble were during the invasion on worlds where the majority of the population was violently opposed to foreign rule.

Something about the generalization that football players are dumb has always bugged me... It just doesn't really seemed to be based on anything other than self-perpetuating assumptions. I had plenty of friends that were football/basketball players and excelled in subjects that I had at least some trouble with. And I work with several as software and hardware engineers.

But yeah, the entire Clan system is inherently flawed... which is why almost all of the coolest Clan characters are the ones who broke the rules.

[Vandal]

The only times the clans were able to successfully run a planet is when they just left the planet in control of who held it before. I.E. not running the planet at all. They did a lot of that because as ULTIMATE WARRIORS they aren't trained in basic things like 'interacting with and organizing other humans' or 'things that don't involve killing other things or really terrible long-form poetry.'

Nobody said football players are dumb, I said the concept of making what amounts to football clubs your main antagonists is dumb as hell. The clans would have worked better if they were kept mysterious like the Minnesota Tribe. Once you know all aboiut their dumb internal politics and insane eugenics and caste system they just seem really stupid and crazy.

Edited by Vandal, 18 July 2012 - 04:52 AM.