45 replies to this topic

[Flyby215]

I'm trying to find an effective way to cram BAP onto my Jester (alongside dual AMS and 2xJJs) since the buff seems to pretty well annihilate ECM.

I just bought a Pirates Bane, and I don't think I've ever engaged an enemy with the ECM active; there's always something countering!

[JimboFBX]

My initial thought is that it's too long. There's no obvious feedback when your ecm quits working and when the cause is some mech father away than the reach of medium lasers that you can't see, then it feels like a bug.

I'd rather that bap let you target and spot a mech under ecm within 270m rather than it countered ecm in an area.

[Lynx7725]

Doesn't your ECM icon on the right side of your HUD gets crossed out when your ECM is suppressed? I hadn't ran any ECM boats recently, so can't recall.

[SharpCookie]

If you think ECM was fine before the BAP change, then you relied on a crutch.

Now that it has a close range counter the playing field is closer to leveled. I'd still prefer they rework ECM and BAP, but I can do with what we have.

[Javenri]

I play both LRM boats and ECM mechs, so I am on both sides of the fence. BAP range was too short before and is too long now. PGI needs to find a middle point (maybe 250-300m?).

[Cyborne Elemental]

250-280 would be the sweet spot.

360 is just too wide for most maps to allow for flanks and ambushes to work.

Like somebody else mentioned earlier, it just hurts lights from doing their job of recon or team anti-missile support.

The extra AMS ammunition is nice, but a poor tradeoff for a working ECM.

[Ultimax]

SharpCookie, on 19 November 2014 - 09:08 PM, said:

Now that it has a close range counter

Now that it has a close range counter

Now that it has a close range counter

Now that it has a close range counter

Radius.

[Felicitatem Parco]

I am a firm believer that any light pilot that's not using ECM should be fighting to deal as much damage as a heavy or assault Mech. Now that BAP allows enemies to cancel ECM, it keaves ECM Lights to the decision between "proving ECM Support" or "Scouting."

The ERLL Sniper will eventually get within 360m of the enemy who's pursuing him.

The silent observer who targets the enemy for LRM botas will still remain undetected.

This change will make ECM dedicated for what;s it's meant for - moving a unit or units without detection. If you move swiftly, away form their font lines, without being seen, then ECM will not be affected by this change... The BAP Buff does serve to prevent ECM from being a "front-line" weapon, though.

[InspectorG]

Prosperity Park, on 19 November 2014 - 09:53 PM, said:

This change will make ECM dedicated for what;s it's meant for - moving a unit or units without detection. If you move swiftly, away form their font lines, without being seen, then ECM will not be affected by this change... The BAP Buff does serve to prevent ECM from being a "front-line" weapon, though.

Didint PGI (recently)state this as their intent?

ECM is more valuable early match before lines form and less so after brawling starts.

Just means lights can either support the lances/blob or run off and 'snipe'

[Delas Ting Usee]

Since when does pgi EVER use a scalpel when a HAMMER is close at hand.
It's PGI.
Why act surprise?
They come to the BAP excess conclusion on their own.
know they went too far with it.
Be stubborn and not admit thy were wrong about it for a couple of years.
Then will follow the excuses.
Then the solution.
Recognize the pattern, people.

[zeyzak]

Slepnir, on 19 November 2014 - 07:41 PM, said:

No viktor we want ECM to work like it is supposed to-removing stacking bonuses for TAG/artemis and nullifying NARC.

What we dont want is it acting like a null signature system and stealth armor all rolled into a zone of effect black hole.

That way important other things in the game like active/passive sensors could be implemented.

Sorry but I don't think anybody deserves a magic jesus box in the game. myself included.

You forget however that every mech in this game gets free C3 systems. if you're going by tabletop then ECM doesn't need to be as strong because teams don't automatically share targeting data.

[Desolator]

Nope, I love that BAP now actually is useful, ECM has been too damn OP for way too damn long.

All you ECM crutch pilots need to learn to adapt and just STFU.

Edited by Desolator, 19 November 2014 - 10:32 PM.

[DYSEQTA]

Flyby215, on 19 November 2014 - 08:43 PM, said:

I just bought a Pirates Bane, and I don't think I've ever engaged an enemy with the ECM active; there's always something countering!

Pretty much my experience.

[El Moosechacho]

Desolator, on 19 November 2014 - 10:32 PM, said:

Nope, I love that BAP now actually is useful, ECM has been too damn OP for way too damn long.

All you ECM crutch pilots need to learn to adapt and just STFU.

Again, myself and the others that feel similarly are not saying we need to revert BAP to 120m, but that it does need some scaling back so that light pilots aren't quite so penalized for bringing ECM.

[JimboFBX]

Lynx7725, on 19 November 2014 - 08:51 PM, said:

Doesn't your ECM icon on the right side of your HUD gets crossed out when your ECM is suppressed? I hadn't ran any ECM boats recently, so can't recall.

Yes, it's an icon that takes up 100 pixels on the side of my 1080p 65 inch tv. I have to be looking at it to tell if my ecm is countered or not because it's so far to the side of my vision when I'm piloting a mech

The bottom line is that having bap counter ecm is janky. Target through ecm? That's ok and makes sense. Disable ecm on mechs you can't even see? Just dumb and doesn't even make sense.

[Alistair Winter]

It's a cheap solution, IMO. They took a step backwards instead of forwards. They effectively reduced the amount of information warfare and role warfare in the game. With ECM being less of a factor, all mechs with BAP are spotting enemies up to 1 km away and sharing the target information with all friendly mechs.

We now need neither scouts nor ECM mechs. Just more firepower. Yay. Where did I put my Timber Wolf? Oh, I don't have one. Guess I'd better start saving.

Yes, it would have been a longer road to try out passive / active radar, changing the rules for indirect fire and changing the rules for ECM. But in the end, it could have been a step forward towards more of a thinking man's shooter.

On a positive note, I've always been a huge fan of the RVN-3L, and as someone who likes the role of the underdog, I haven't really been too comfortable using that thing in MWO. With ECM nerfed, all my favourite Inner Sphere mechs are finally sub-par. Which is kind of nice. It's just too bad that they turned my RVN-3L into strictly a damage dealer, with TAG optional. I always had a desire to be a light mech pilot working as a scout with electronic counter-measures. Now it's just a sniper / light brawler.

[DYSEQTA]

Personally I don't have a problem with increasing BAP suppression range. However, they have gone from one extreme to the other with this "fix".

Maybe that's the point. Perhaps PGI's balance strategy is to use bracketing to find the optimal solution. Fire short, fire long , and then use the information gleaned from the first two shots to make the optimum shot? Their IS quirkenning sort of suggests that too as many of the quirks handed out are way over the top.

Edited by DYSEQTA, 19 November 2014 - 11:34 PM.

[Spheroid]

People are too obsessed with range. CECM also has burn through time as a value. That can be tweaked if necessary.

[Connaugh]

Alistair Winter, on 19 November 2014 - 11:25 PM, said:

With ECM being less of a factor, all mechs with BAP are spotting enemies up to 1 km away and sharing the target information with all friendly mechs.

As far as my knowledge goes, this is wrong!

ECM gives a cover-bubble with a radius of 180m. Mechs within this bubble are protected from being targeted UNLESS the enemy targeting is within a range of 200m. IF the BAP disturbs the source of ecm and not the sole effect on any mech covered by it, this still is valid.
By this system, enemies are know 380m away from the ecm source. It doesnt matter if they have BAP or not. BUT if they have it and close in for just 20 more meters, the ecm source is disrupted, leaving all mechs within its bubble unshielded. This again means, that an any other enemy mech, with or without BAP, now can target all enemies - even within the bubble - up to 520m away from the BAP-spotter. Here it doesn't matter if they are close to or even far behind the "spotter". And 360m is more than enough away to stay behind any kind of cover - it still works. For sniping, you have to expose yourself. For Bapping, you just have to "stand around". With every mech being capable of equipping BAP, the range extension is just too much.

The PGI statement for "moving around the battlefield": As we don't have a proper 360° radar system but a shared LOS detection map, this is the biggest nonsense to be brought as an argument. This just says, as long as you don't have enemy contact, you can protect yourself.

And finally, the worst thing about the BAP-Buff: Every mech is capable of equipping it and having the full benefit. The ecm mech equipping it too, still has to decide to cover or detect. And if he wants to detect, he is bound to the 180m limit of the ecm module. This is the same as a mech equipping an ac20 getting the full firepower, a mech with a second one just recieves a plus in firespeed and range. Would like to see your "l2p" and "stfu" in this case.

[Sorbic]

Yeah, I'd like to see the range dropped down to 300 or so.