45 replies to this topic

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Hi AwOL )
Your Pic very nice , the Shadow more from sclaing like a banshee or Atlas



11m Warhammer ( with no Misslelauncher) against a 12 m T.-rex and a
25 m Giraffatitan

Edited by CSJ Ranger, 24 November 2014 - 08:12 AM.

[AWOL 01]

Haha those are very cool! I'll fix the scale when I get a chance.

[Sonny Black]

Size does matter....

http://youtu.be/lpPeQyT36Tg

[xengk]

StompingOnTanks, on 24 November 2014 - 03:41 AM, said:

This. This this this this this. Best mecha anime I've seen in a long time, despite its age.

If you want a realistic mecha anime, you MUST watch this.

War in the Pocket is also among the best of the Gundam series.
I just rewatched the ending again, still one of the best one on one Zaku vs Gundam fights.
All the feels are coming back to me.

[AWOL 01]

CSJ Ranger, on 24 November 2014 - 08:07 AM, said:

Hi AwOL )
Your Pic very nice , the Shadow more from sclaing like a banshee or Atlas

Thanks Ranger I used your pics to fix the scaling and it makes more sense now

xengk, on 24 November 2014 - 08:26 AM, said:

War in the Pocket is also among the best of the Gundam series.
I just rewatched the ending again, still one of the best one on one Zaku vs Gundam fights.
All the feels are coming back to me.

I can't stop watching Gundam clips now... where's the best place to find full episodes???

[Brody319]

AWOL 01, on 24 November 2014 - 01:50 PM, said:

Thanks Ranger I used your pics to fix the scaling and it makes more sense now




I can't stop watching Gundam clips now... where's the best place to find full episodes???

The english dub of the original gundum can be found on this website http://www.watchcartoononline.com
I personally prefer the dub in this case since the audio is more clear and the characters don't sound annoying.

[StompingOnTanks]

Brody319, on 24 November 2014 - 03:07 PM, said:

I personally prefer the dub in this case since the audio is more clear and the characters don't sound annoying.

This. I can't stand Japanese female voice actors most of the time. The only exception being the Japanese voice actors in Kill La Kill, because they actually sound like women and not squeaking mice.

But anyway, back on topic - I think the best mech sizes in terms of size and design realism would be the Walkers from BF2142.



Literally a tank turret on a bipedal chassis with autocannons and rocket pods as weapons. We could probably build these and have them battle ready in 50 years if we could get the funding.

[Brody319]

StompingOnTanks, on 24 November 2014 - 05:39 PM, said:

This. I can't stand Japanese female voice actors most of the time. The only exception being the Japanese voice actors in Kill La Kill, because they actually sound like women and not squeaking mice.

But anyway, back on topic - I think the best mech sizes in terms of size and design realism would be the Walkers from BF2142.



Literally a tank turret on a bipedal chassis with autocannons and rocket pods as weapons. We could probably build these and have them battle ready in 50 years if we could get the funding.

Gurren Lagann's japanese version isnt that bad, I personally prefer the sub in most cases. Though the only problem with gurren lagann's dub for me is they still pronounce Simon's name like the japanese do, as "seemon" instead of the english of "S-eye-mon".

I see a lot of problems with 2 legged mechs. There is a lot more to walking, you have to shift your weight, so it would have to have a system that could handled that and survive if it was under attack. That is one of the reasons why mechs tend to show up as Humanoid in shape since the arms do that for humans. There is also the problem of the reason for a mech. I mean mechs are cool but is there a practical reason for giving them legs currently? Treds can handle dry and wet terrain with ease. Mechs that walk wouldn't burn less fuel, and don't seem any safer. Mobility is one thing mechs have that tanks dont, but we aren't really in a position to need one. Tanks are doing their jobs just fine, till we need something that can walk over land but have the firepower of a tank I doubt we will see a mech.

I think humanoid exosuits will be the first things we see, then we will probably develop mechs to counter them since a tank would suffer against small fast moving targets. Even then I think mechs would only be deployed against exos and generally be left out of other combat scenarios. they may see use in police forces if exos start showing up on the black market.

[StompingOnTanks]

I think for the forseeable future the closest we'll have to an actual mech would be something like this: the Bleed VS from Lost Planet.





You don't have the profile and weight issues of a mech since it's small, which also makes it magnitudes easier to balance. You have good firepower and mobility given its size while still giving the pilot decent protection, although a real life version of this would likely be fully enclosed.

Actually, come to think of it, the power armor from F.E.A.R is what I just described.





You wear it like a suit, but in combat it fills the same role as a mecha. I could easily see this happening in a real life setting.

[AWOL 01]

Brody319, on 24 November 2014 - 03:07 PM, said:

The english dub of the original gundum can be found on this website http://www.watchcartoononline.com
I personally prefer the dub in this case since the audio is more clear and the characters don't sound annoying.

Thank you very much!

StompingOnTanks, on 24 November 2014 - 05:39 PM, said:

But anyway, back on topic - I think the best mech sizes in terms of size and design realism would be the Walkers from BF2142.

Literally a tank turret on a bipedal chassis with autocannons and rocket pods as weapons. We could probably build these and have them battle ready in 50 years if we could get the funding.

That is seriously all of my mech designs Ever since my dad brought home Armored Core for PS1 I've been fascinated with mechs, and they're the reason I'm majoring in Mechanical Engineering. I have doodles of mechs all over my notes and many of them I think are actually pretty realistic for use on the battlefield.

Brody319, on 24 November 2014 - 06:04 PM, said:

I see a lot of problems with 2 legged mechs. There is a lot more to walking, you have to shift your weight, so it would have to have a system that could handled that and survive if it was under attack. That is one of the reasons why mechs tend to show up as Humanoid in shape since the arms do that for humans. There is also the problem of the reason for a mech. I mean mechs are cool but is there a practical reason for giving them legs currently? Treads can handle dry and wet terrain with ease. Mechs that walk wouldn't burn less fuel, and don't seem any safer. Mobility is one thing mechs have that tanks don't, but we aren't really in a position to need one. Tanks are doing their jobs just fine, till we need something that can walk over land but have the firepower of a tank I doubt we will see a mech.

I think humanoid exosuits will be the first things we see, then we will probably develop mechs to counter them since a tank would suffer against small fast moving targets. Even then I think mechs would only be deployed against exos and generally be left out of other combat scenarios. they may see use in police forces if exos start showing up on the black market.

In another topic titled "Real Life Mechs" I talked about carbon nanotube muscles and how they would make walking vehicles viable.

1) They're extremely light - most of their weight comes from the paraffin wax they're coated in. This means that even a large mech will weigh less than a tank of equal volume.

2) They're very powerful - at least 85x more powerful than biological muscles.

3) They use very little power - they can even be designed to contract using sunlight or human body heat. This means they wouldn't need a large power source, like the reactors in Battlemechs. Just a small generator and batteries to run the computers inside it.

Because they produce a linear force and not a rotational force, they'd be useless to tanks but perfect for legged or other biomimetic machines. Once they're mass-produced to bring the cost down and more research is done to get multiple bundles to work in unison, I believe mechs will be a valuable part of any military force, which could be as soon as 2025. Sadly, I doubt it'll get enough attention for this to happen and we'll have to wait a while longer.

[Brody319]

AWOL 01, on 24 November 2014 - 08:26 PM, said:

In another topic titled "Real Life Mechs" I talked about carbon nanotube muscles and how they would make walking vehicles viable.

1) They're extremely light - most of their weight comes from the paraffin wax they're coated in. This means that even a large mech will weigh less than a tank of equal volume.

2) They're very powerful - at least 85x more powerful than biological muscles.

3) They use very little power - they can even be designed to contract using sunlight or human body heat. This means they wouldn't need a large power source, like the reactors in Battlemechs. Just a small generator and batteries to run the computers inside it.

Because they produce a linear force and not a rotational force, they'd be useless to tanks but perfect for legged or other biomimetic machines. Once they're mass-produced to bring the cost down and more research is done to get multiple bundles to work in unison, I believe mechs will be a valuable part of any military force, which could be as soon as 2025. Sadly, I doubt it'll get enough attention for this to happen and we'll have to wait a while longer.

Sure we could build them, and they may be effective in some situations, but the military typically wants practical things, since they aren't locked in an arms race with anyone, they don't develop things or put risks. Our technology is mostly limited by our batteries. We can make a small nuclear engine, but you probably Do not want nuclear rods being left around if a mech dies. So we gotta wait for Fusion engines since they don't leave behind something that is easy to weaponize. Though The military will probably have some form of melt down command they can activate by remote to prevent the enemy from getting fusion power. (Clans probably should have done something like this damn IS keep your filthy hands off the clan tech!) Fusion engines are really close, though tiny ones are probably several years off.

What we really need is some ******* awesome batteries. Need a way to store massive amounts of power in a small area. Thats really what limits our technologies, the ability to bring large amounts of power. Which would be useful for a mech, since it would have to store some power to jump start the fusion engine and provide some emergency power if the mech needed it.

[xengk]

AWOL 01, on 24 November 2014 - 01:50 PM, said:

I can't stop watching Gundam clips now... where's the best place to find full episodes???

"Jack Sparrow" bay

[Anjian]

Great work!

The larger of the two ACs seems to be from the Armored Core 4/4Answer era. Unlike previous Armored Cores, the 4 and V series seems to belong to the same time but different eras.

Would have loved to see the comparison include:

Tripods from War of the Worlds
The original Gundam
The Valkryie from Macross
Scopedog from Votoms
Golion aka Voltron
A gear from Heavy Gear
9 Ball from Armored Core Nine Breaker
White Glint from Armored Core 4 Answer
Labors from Patlabor
Optimus Prime from the Transformers
Nirvash from Eureka 7
Evangelions

[Anjian]

Add a Hound from Chromehounds too (from the same developers of Armored Core and Dark Souls).

If the game mechanisms in War Thunder are applied to mechs, you are going to see that the most survivable mechs are going to have:

Very small frontal torso profiles, which makes them very hard to hit in the front.

Highly sloped, angular armor, which increases the deflection and ricochet rate of rounds hitting the mech.

The use of disposable, hanging, spaced armor, used as outer armor over an inner amor that is highly sloped and angular. This is to defeat HEAT and HE rounds.

Thin, fast legs. Again, harder to hit.

When it comes to survivability, you will be surprised that what you know and think as "realistic" mechs, are actually awful for survivability. The worst, are the designs you typically see in Battletech.

Why BT designs are the worst?

1. Very large exposed frontal torsos (Atlas, Awesome, etc,.) Nice targets.
2. Flat armor with minimal sloping.
3. Exposed frontal cockpits vulnerable to the side and front hits (Mad Cat, Dire Wolf).
4. Low slung weapons that do not provide sufficient environmental clearance.

When we played Chromehounds, the game lets you design mechs from scratch using modules and all that hard core PvP help shaped the way we designed our mechs to optimize them for combat.

1. Minimal frontal torso and profiles. You see the mech from the front and you see a thin silhouette.
2. Hang shields in front of the torso.
3. Weapons are placed high for clearance, placed around the front, sometimes in front of the shield and at the side. They themselves serve as disposable armor to help protect the front and the sides.
4. Weapons are grouped in a narrow profile to reduce dispersion.
5. Angular and spaced armor are placed around the weapons to protect them



If Battletech is realistic, the most survivable mech might be the Stalker.

The cockpit is fairly high, not in the nose.
Minimal frontal profile.
Sloped armor throughout.
Weapons located high.

[StompingOnTanks]

Chromehounds got a lot of things right. I just wish I had Xbox Live at the time so I could have played multiplayer before the servers went down.

[AWOL 01]

Anjian, on 26 November 2014 - 04:49 AM, said:

Great work!

The larger of the two ACs seems to be from the Armored Core 4/4Answer era. Unlike previous Armored Cores, the 4 and V series seems to belong to the same time but different eras.

Would have loved to see the comparison include:

Tripods from War of the Worlds
The original Gundam
The Valkryie from Macross
Scopedog from Votoms
Golion aka Voltron
A gear from Heavy Gear
9 Ball from Armored Core Nine Breaker
White Glint from Armored Core 4 Answer
Labors from Patlabor
Optimus Prime from the Transformers
Nirvash from Eureka 7
Evangelions

Thank you for all the suggestions! I can't believe I forgot some of those! I tried to add as many as I could. Regarding the Tripods, were you thinking the ones from the 2005 movie with Tom Cruise?

Anjian, on 26 November 2014 - 05:40 AM, said:

Add a Hound from Chromehounds too (from the same developers of Armored Core and Dark Souls).

If the game mechanisms in War Thunder are applied to mechs, you are going to see that the most survivable mechs are going to have:

Very small frontal torso profiles, which makes them very hard to hit in the front.

Highly sloped, angular armor, which increases the deflection and ricochet rate of rounds hitting the mech.

The use of disposable, hanging, spaced armor, used as outer armor over an inner amor that is highly sloped and angular. This is to defeat HEAT and HE rounds.

Thin, fast legs. Again, harder to hit.

When it comes to survivability, you will be surprised that what you know and think as "realistic" mechs, are actually awful for survivability. The worst, are the designs you typically see in Battletech.

Why BT designs are the worst?

1. Very large exposed frontal torsos (Atlas, Awesome, etc,.) Nice targets.
2. Flat armor with minimal sloping.
3. Exposed frontal cockpits vulnerable to the side and front hits (Mad Cat, Dire Wolf).
4. Low slung weapons that do not provide sufficient environmental clearance.

When we played Chromehounds, the game lets you design mechs from scratch using modules and all that hard core PvP help shaped the way we designed our mechs to optimize them for combat.

1. Minimal frontal torso and profiles. You see the mech from the front and you see a thin silhouette.
2. Hang shields in front of the torso.
3. Weapons are placed high for clearance, placed around the front, sometimes in front of the shield and at the side. They themselves serve as disposable armor to help protect the front and the sides.
4. Weapons are grouped in a narrow profile to reduce dispersion.
5. Angular and spaced armor are placed around the weapons to protect them



If Battletech is realistic, the most survivable mech might be the Stalker.

The cockpit is fairly high, not in the nose.
Minimal frontal profile.
Sloped armor throughout.
Weapons located high.

This is absolutely perfect. This is the reason mechs are considered so unrealistic, when all they need is the correct design. I'd say the most realistic mech in MWO is either the Locust or the Jenner. They're relatively small, and their torsos aren't humanoid, they're more horizontal, like a tank turret. I modeled my own "real life mech" and I think this is kind of realistic. Any input on it is welcome!

AWOL 01, on 23 November 2014 - 10:15 PM, said:

Alright so I made a new design and actually took the time to think through it first. It stands about 12 feet tall and is armed with a 30mm cannon and 3 TOW missiles. I haven't added any sensors or anything and a canopy just seems kinda dumb, but I don't know how else the pilot would see. Since it's lightly armed and relatively small I figured it only needed one crew member. The idea for the "elf feet," as my sister called them, came from prosthetic running legs (blades) so that at higher speeds the mech will run more on its "toes" than on its heels, similar to an ostrich. At lower speeds the larger surface area will help support it on softer ground. Feedback is appreciated!

Front View

Spoiler

Side View

Spoiler

Top View

Spoiler

Standing

Spoiler

Crouching

Spoiler

Kneeling

Spoiler

Running

Spoiler

We always had PlayStation growing up so I never even got a chance to play Chromehounds :/ That game looked amazing. It surprised me how small they were.

[StompingOnTanks]

Those 3D models remind me of a childhood game called Gungriffon Blaze for PS2. It got mediocre reviews but it was one of the most fun mech games I've ever played. That, and the mech designs were uber realistic.

Spoiler

Some, but not all, had the ability to fly short distances with wings and jet engines or roll on the ground at high speeds using wheels in the feet, but besides that they were relatively well grounded in real physics and combat vehicle design.

AWOL 01, on 27 November 2014 - 02:17 PM, said:

*Mech pictures*

Dude, this is awesome. A 30mm cannon and TOW missiles is a little underarmed if you ask me, but that depends on the role it's made for. I would assume light infantry support, like a walking M2 Bradley?

Edited by StompingOnTanks, 27 November 2014 - 05:28 PM.

[AWOL 01]

StompingOnTanks, on 27 November 2014 - 05:06 PM, said:

Those 3D models remind me of a childhood game called Gungriffon Blaze for PS2. It got mediocre reviews but it was one of the most fun mech games I've ever played. That, and the mech designs were uber realistic.

Spoiler

Some, but not all, had the ability to fly short distances with wings and jet engines or roll on the ground at high speeds using wheels in the feet, but besides that they were relatively well grounded in real physics and combat vehicle design.

Why have I never heard of this game??? Those are so cool! That second screenshot reminds me of Front Mission 3. The rolling ability is kind of like the Gears in Heavy Gear. They'd either have 2 wheels/treads in each foot and use an electric motor to move on paved roads at higher speeds, which would make sense to prevent wear on the mech's joints.

StompingOnTanks, on 27 November 2014 - 05:06 PM, said:

Dude, this is awesome. A 30mm cannon and TOW missiles is a little underarmed if you ask me, but that depends on the role it's made for. I would assume light infantry support, like a walking M2 Bradley?

That's actually exactly what it's like. I figure that a mech's first use won't be frontline fighting, but more of a support role. When aircraft were first used they weren't the terrifying weapons of war they were by the end of WWI or WWII, they were used for reconnaissance. Then pilots started carrying pistols and rifles in their cockpits to fire at other pilots and they started bringing small bombs to drop on ground targets. I assume mechs will change in the same way and the number of roles they have will increase very quickly once they're tested in battle.

[StompingOnTanks]

AWOL 01, on 27 November 2014 - 06:22 PM, said:

Why have I never heard of this game???

It wasn't a popular series, but it did have four games: Two on the PS1, Gungriffon Blaze on the PS2 (which I own and is considered the best in the series) and Gungriffon: Allied Strike for the original Xbox (which was pretty bad I've read and probably what killed the series).

Also, it was overshadowed by the likes of MechWarrior and Armored Core which were world-famous at the time.

AWOL 01, on 27 November 2014 - 06:22 PM, said:

That's actually exactly what it's like. I figure that a mech's first use won't be frontline fighting, but more of a support role. When aircraft were first used they weren't the terrifying weapons of war they were by the end of WWI or WWII, they were used for reconnaissance. Then pilots started carrying pistols and rifles in their cockpits to fire at other pilots and they started bringing small bombs to drop on ground targets. I assume mechs will change in the same way and the number of roles they have will increase very quickly once they're tested in battle.

I too have thought much the same. Tanks were also considered a joke and little more than fancy toys for boosting morale for their first 20 years of existence, so few nations seriously invested in them. Then before WWII {Godwin's Law} Germany showed up with their fast, tough, well-armed Panzer tanks which they'd been working on in secret and warfare was forever changed.

It makes sense that mechs would take a similar route.

Year 2150: "WTF is this? A huge tank on legs? You're joking."

Year 2170: "OH **** A HUGE TANK ON LEGS! RUN!!!"

Edit: Oh BTW here's a gameplay video.

Edited by StompingOnTanks, 27 November 2014 - 07:18 PM.

[AWOL 01]

With how Armored Core turned out I actually kinda wish this game had done better... I feel bad saying that about a series that used to be my favorite. But seriously,



When your mech spends as much time in the air as an F-16, you know you're doing something wrong (Even though it's totally awesome). There's a reason they made this game



Also, I reeeeally hope the first time mechs are used isn't in 2150. I want to see mechs on the battlefield in my lifetime!