24 replies to this topic

[MeiSooHaityu]

I was thinking about the Flamer earlier and I had an idea that might work for this "weapon". I figure I would run it by you guys and see what you think. The values stated are of course more of a place holder, this is more about how the weapon functions.


A Flamer won't directly apply heat to a mech, but instead act as a heat multiplier for weapons that are being fired by the target mech. Possible multipler to movement as well, but it would be low.

Reason: If a mech is shuts down due to a Flamer, it can still cool and start back up (since it isn't firing any weapons). Mechs can't be heat locked and therefore disabled and torn apart without being able to start back up.



The multiplier is determined by whether the Flamer is striking an armored section or a cored section. If a mech is fully armored, the heat multiplier will be very low (maybe non-existent).

Reason: Armor is a natural protectant and keeps the heat at bay. Exposed internals lose that protection and become more vulnerable. This also may deter 9 Flamer Swaybacks because their affect on a healthy mech is minimal (also see multiplier cap later).



Exposed internals will suffer damage (but only exposed internals). Damage and crit seeking maybe similar to MGs). It could be overpowering, so maybe half the damage of a MG and half crit seek. Remember, the mech may shut down and not move. Until he can power up, he is a sitting duck. It wouldn't be hard to tear him apart.

Reason: Flamer does take up an energy spot, it should do some damage and since it affect mostly exposed internals, some crit seeking would be nice.



The Multiplier to weapon heat would need to be possibly capped. Boating could be an issue, so capping the multiplier at 2 Flamers might be a good idea.

Reason: To limit boating abuse.



The multiplier values in this is the tricky part. It would take some experimenting. Maybe...

1 Flamer: Armored Location: Receives a 3% boost to weapon heat when fired.
2 Flamer: Armores Location: Recieves a 6% boost to weapon heat when fired.

1 Flamer: Cored Location: Recieves a 10% boost to weapon heat when fired.
2 Flamer: Cored Location: Recieves a 20% boost to weapon heat when fired.

Movement may see additional heat as well, but If a mech generates 10% while walking, may jump to 15% or so if he is cored.

Alternatly, I could see also removing the 2 Flamer cap, but have diminishing returns as the Flamer count goes up. Something like (exposed internals)...

• 1 Flamer: 10%
  
• 2 Flamers: 15%
  
• 3 Flamers: 17%
  
• 4 Flamers: 19%
  
• etc...

Exact values are just guesses off the top of my head. They would probably need to be tweaked. This is more of the idea of...

• Applying heat only when weapons are fired to prevent a mech from being permanently shut down.
  
• Making Flamers more dangerous to damaged mechs (without armor) because exposed internals makes sense to take more damage or heat (not armor protection), plus makes big Flamer only builds not terribly effective (at least early game)
  
• Flamer unable to cause damage to armor and applies very little heat when armor is present, but does damage, crit seeking, and heat to cored locations. Makes all Flamer builds impractical but gives enough benefit to take one or two flamers.

WHat do you guys think?

[Gamuray]

Yes. That's all that's needed, is yes. Especially with the diminishing return instead of cap.

YES.


p.s. Also, turning this into a poll would be a good idea.

Edited by Gamuray, 26 November 2014 - 09:33 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Gamuray, on 26 November 2014 - 09:33 AM, said:

Yes. That's all that's needed, is yes. Especially with the diminishing return instead of cap.

YES.


p.s. Also, turning this into a poll would be a good idea.

Thanks. I might try making it a poll later. I'm just glad it gets some feedback. Flamers aren't terribly interesting for most forum goers lol.

[Burktross]

Eh... sounds like even more of nerf when taking armor into the equation.

[BARBAR0SSA]

let the flamer set enviroments on fire that interefere with radar, raise heat and provide a smoke screen.

Oh no that's too awesome

[JP Josh]

eh

i liked tt rules for flamers.

yes im one of those people that would have collisions in game still if your hit with 2 ac20's at same time your mech could fall down. if you didn't feather your landing your pilot would die... ect until those come im not playing this rehash mech shooter.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Burktross, on 26 November 2014 - 09:41 AM, said:

Eh... sounds like even more of nerf when taking armor into the equation.

I thought about that (and heat multipliers could be closer with armor), but I was thinking of the Flamer as more of a utility and less a direct weapon.

The idea is to keep boating them down. If you are in a mech with weapons and open up an armor location, you might switch to flamers to try and drop the targets DPS and eventually shut him down if he isn't careful.

If the multiplier is too high with armor, you might have some abuse.

The idea is to treat it as a tool to drop an enemies effectiveness in battle and possibly shut him down. It shouldn't replace normal weapons, but be a complement worth taking.

[Utilyan]

A bit keeping with lore. Should make it a beam version of a smoke bomb. At best Could even obscure targeting. Plenty of shooters out there where they use grenade smoke bomb. Imagine the resulting poof of smoke appears when flamer hits the ground.

I know what they don't want is a perma-stun weapon.

Instead of pushing for better stun/damage, I prefer more bark then bite. Let flamers put on a GRAND show. Lighting terrain on fire, creating great billowing smoke.

I believe some folks in table top might tell you how they can cover retreats with flamers.



Imagine your in defensive situation 2v5 they are advancing you want to retreat. If you turn around and run they just spank you and lurm you. Instead you can shoot flamers at the ground. they can't see you don't know how many folks are there, can't get locks on you, and as you run your shooting flaming the ground making a massive smoke screen.

[Glucose]

I think this needs to work through armor. If you already have exposed internal structure the mech is close to dead anyway and you'd much rather have a real weapon that finishes it off.

I do like the idea of it causing a large multiplier on weapon, that probably works best.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Glucose, on 26 November 2014 - 10:10 AM, said:

I think this needs to work through armor. If you already have exposed internal structure the mech is close to dead anyway and you'd much rather have a real weapon that finishes it off.

I do like the idea of it causing a large multiplier on weapon, that probably works best.

Yea, maybe drop the armor restriction on heat. I kind of still think damage and crit seeking should be exposed internal only though.

[Burktross]

MeiSooHaityu, on 26 November 2014 - 09:55 AM, said:

I thought about that (and heat multipliers could be closer with armor), but I was thinking of the Flamer as more of a utility and less a direct weapon.

The idea is to keep boating them down. If you are in a mech with weapons and open up an armor location, you might switch to flamers to try and drop the targets DPS and eventually shut him down if he isn't careful.

If the multiplier is too high with armor, you might have some abuse.

The idea is to treat it as a tool to drop an enemies effectiveness in battle and possibly shut him down. It shouldn't replace normal weapons, but be a complement worth taking.

At the very least, don't have a boating harcap. Have exponential multiplier decrease after 2 flamers
EX:
x1 flamer = x1 mult
x2 flamers = x2 mult
x3 flamers = x2.5 mult
x4 flamers = x2.6 mult
x5 flamers = x2.65 mult
Not real maths but, you know.

[Sug]

Why can't they just buff the heat flamers apply but give them a cooldown?

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Ideas sound interesting. But I feel that their current form of firing needs to be tweaked first.

So, I'd give Flamers a beam and cooldown periods and adjust numbers from there to balance (Talking about MG and SL/SPL grouping for damage profile). The reason is to keep Flamers form melting the mech firing them, if they hold down the fire button and to help them fit in better with other weapons.

[RalphVargr]

Flamers should be mounted on the rear torso, facing aft.

[Widowmaker1981]

personally id like them to leave flamers as is, suck level.

Its a CC (crowd control) weapon at heart, and those really have no place in a fun FPS game.

In lore they are really only useful vs infantry and pilots didnt like using them due to the possibility of being cooked by the fuel.

[Sug]

Widowmaker1981, on 26 November 2014 - 10:58 AM, said:

Its a CC (crowd control) weapon at heart, and those really have no place in a fun FPS game.

They could be balanced. It would only be CC if flamers guaranteed shutting down a mech and keeping it down. A little extra heat to manage is part of the game.

They would either need ridiculous ghost heat to prevent the 9 flamer hunchbacks from running amok or some kind of ammo system. Like if flamers that aren't part of the base build are added then they have a fixed amount of ammo/fuel.

[FupDup]

Sug, on 26 November 2014 - 11:06 AM, said:

They could be balanced. It would only be CC if flamers guaranteed shutting down a mech and keeping it down. A little extra heat to manage is part of the game.

They would either need ridiculous ghost heat to prevent the 9 flamer hunchbacks from running amok or some kind of ammo system. Like if flamers that aren't part of the base build are added then they have a fixed amount of ammo/fuel.

I think the fact that a 9 Flamer Hunchie deals fairly low damage with an extremely short range restriction is enough of a check-and-balance.

[Wrathful Scythe]

Just make it a zero-heat weapon and apply (ghost) heat if you use more than 4 simultaniously. The flamer increases your heat more than it applies to the enemy mech, which is just bullshit.

[Rhaythe]

I'd like to see more tabletop adjustments to heat. IE: Heat up too much, lose some max speed. Heat some more, weapons become more difficult to use. Hell. If we're going for a pilot-in-a-tin-can game, let's make it possible for the pilot to black out. Flamers would find a whole new use then.

By trolls, but hey, I'd be doing it too.

[Sug]

FupDup, on 26 November 2014 - 11:08 AM, said:

I think the fact that a 9 Flamer Hunchie deals fairly low damage with an extremely short range restriction is enough of a check-and-balance.

Not the damage I'm worried about it's the lock down. Nothing should be able to shutdown an opposing mech and/or keep it shutdown.