20 replies to this topic

[Zordicron]

So, here are my thoughts, feel free to post yours!

1. It is cool.

haha, OK. That said, I do like the visuals, even the fog. I like the split terrain topography. I love the plant art. there is a crap load of cover, though much of it not high enough to do anything but break LOS, with other stuff VERY TALL. I am good with that too.

I do not like the discrepency on the "steps" between light mechs racing up at full speed, and an Atlas that can;t navigate some of them at all. maybe planned, maybe just bad geography code, I hope they smooth them out some.

I do not like how every match turns into ring around the rosy at D4. Take note, this is one of very, very few map grid coord's i actually have memorized, and this map is new. that is how often the fights go there.

I think the matches have some sparse snipe shot fighting, some LRM area denial effects(otherwise LRM are hard pressed to rain doom non stop on any target, again OK) but in large, the encounters come down to mostly 50M or less faceblast brawls. There is so much movment available, but it is so restricted to giant deathball fighting(unless you are an ECM light that can navigate all the rabbit holes) that in large much of the map goes to waste, and the fighting, even though it is intense on movment, only really moves back and forth around a very small area while one team tries to fake out the other in the ring around the rosy match. Lots of moving, making sure to cover the rear against a flank, almost no pushing, because the guy that shows first gets alpha strikes. So lots of cat and mouse in a tiny area, then a minor adjustment, and more cat and mouse.


this map BEGS to have TONS of movement, all over the place, as it is easy to lose LOS and the split terrain begs for people to have multiple smaller fights going on. But, it can;t, because there is one giant choke point that makes splitting the blob up very difficult.

What I would do to change this map, to make it versatile:

Remove the giant freegin hill at D4. maybe replace wth some small-ish cover to protect against flat on flat direct fire, hide some LOS a little. THEN:

make a tunnel. not a huge one, but a significant one for the map. T shaped, 3 exits-

Exit one and two, towards each spawn point respectively, i would put a bend in it enough you cant see all the way through.

Exit 3, and the big one: into that very low area pretty much nobody is using. It is awesome looking down there with those lilly pad things, it provides a type of camo for moving, even though red doritos betray position(still useful IF we could come and go a little better down there) and most importantly, it would add an escape route or flank route to the map where there is only a complete standstill choke point now. It would provide a counter to the team that goes to the elevated edge(B3? C3? I forget that one) allowing escape to cover and re-position using the low ground.


i really think this map could be like the BEST map, but it needs this tunnel to open it up a little and remove all the deathblob camping that goes on.


Note: i can not speak for conquest, as I do not play it(100% pug matches here, no herding cats for me thanks)

[Water Bear]

Eldagore, on 24 November 2014 - 08:15 PM, said:

So, here are my thoughts, feel free to post yours!

1. It is cool.

haha, OK. That said, I do like the visuals, even the fog. I like the split terrain topography. I love the plant art. there is a crap load of cover, though much of it not high enough to do anything but break LOS, with other stuff VERY TALL. I am good with that too.

I do not like the discrepency on the "steps" between light mechs racing up at full speed, and an Atlas that can;t navigate some of them at all. maybe planned, maybe just bad geography code, I hope they smooth them out some.

I do not like how every match turns into ring around the rosy at D4. Take note, this is one of very, very few map grid coord's i actually have memorized, and this map is new. that is how often the fights go there.

I think the matches have some sparse snipe shot fighting, some LRM area denial effects(otherwise LRM are hard pressed to rain doom non stop on any target, again OK) but in large, the encounters come down to mostly 50M or less faceblast brawls. There is so much movment available, but it is so restricted to giant deathball fighting(unless you are an ECM light that can navigate all the rabbit holes) that in large much of the map goes to waste, and the fighting, even though it is intense on movment, only really moves back and forth around a very small area while one team tries to fake out the other in the ring around the rosy match. Lots of moving, making sure to cover the rear against a flank, almost no pushing, because the guy that shows first gets alpha strikes. So lots of cat and mouse in a tiny area, then a minor adjustment, and more cat and mouse.


this map BEGS to have TONS of movement, all over the place, as it is easy to lose LOS and the split terrain begs for people to have multiple smaller fights going on. But, it can;t, because there is one giant choke point that makes splitting the blob up very difficult.

What I would do to change this map, to make it versatile:

Remove the giant freegin hill at D4. maybe replace wth some small-ish cover to protect against flat on flat direct fire, hide some LOS a little. THEN:

make a tunnel. not a huge one, but a significant one for the map. T shaped, 3 exits-

Exit one and two, towards each spawn point respectively, i would put a bend in it enough you cant see all the way through.

Exit 3, and the big one: into that very low area pretty much nobody is using. It is awesome looking down there with those lilly pad things, it provides a type of camo for moving, even though red doritos betray position(still useful IF we could come and go a little better down there) and most importantly, it would add an escape route or flank route to the map where there is only a complete standstill choke point now. It would provide a counter to the team that goes to the elevated edge(B3? C3? I forget that one) allowing escape to cover and re-position using the low ground.


i really think this map could be like the BEST map, but it needs this tunnel to open it up a little and remove all the deathblob camping that goes on.


Note: i can not speak for conquest, as I do not play it(100% pug matches here, no herding cats for me thanks)

The tunnel idea is cool! The thought of a couple tunnel networks to allow for some flanking moves is interesting, kind of like Day of Defeat. Only thing that worries me is that if an entire team death balls through the tunnel things could get all-or-nothing.

I agree with your criticism of the steps, they are weird. The D4 situation is also unfortunate. The steps only facing one spawn are also a questionable design decision.

[Unnatural Growth]

I think the swamp map is very cool to look at, or even to cruise around on in training grounds. But it sucks to fight on, and there's enough cover and vegetation obstructing vision already, but do we really need the fog too? And it's a resource hog that tanks my frame rate.

[Dawnstealer]

Have you guys noticed the (living) bugs in the water? Just cresting through it? Nice touch. It's definitely the prettiest map they've done. I seem to get snagged constantly, but maybe that's a feature?

[Zordicron]

Dawnstealer, on 24 November 2014 - 08:54 PM, said:

Have you guys noticed the (living) bugs in the water? Just cresting through it? Nice touch. It's definitely the prettiest map they've done. I seem to get snagged constantly, but maybe that's a feature?

It is certainly pretty. IMO, the terrain MIGHT have some little invisible snags in it, but there is certainly some stuff used to obstruct areas. Which is fine also, it really fits into the theme of the map.

[TehSBGX]

As some one who's wanted a swamp map for a long time, I can honestly say.... It's okay. :/

[Troutmonkey]

Yeah, I agree. The steps need some smoothing out, and there needs to be a another set of steps on there other side.

The fog needs to be decreased by half.

A tunnel Idea would be really cool, one of the exits could lead out to the lilies.

Edited by Troutmonkey, 24 November 2014 - 10:37 PM.

[Mister Blastman]

The giant choke point sucks. For some reason many PGI maps have these which is senseless.

[Kiiyor]

I love the elevated fighting areas.

I hated the map at first, but once I started heading straight to the top of the middle hillock, things started clicking.

If you're up top, you have access to enemies trying to flank along both sides. It's not the near automatic i-win as holding the center in mordor however, as the surrounding terrain is open enough that if you peek, you can be ruined by an observant enemy team. Also, if the enemy on the ground gets up a UAV or Narc for LRMs, you can be annihilated on top in very short order.

The steps leading to the upper platform are also wide enough that at least two mechs can take them at once, meaning a decent push can shift enemies at the top, who have surprisingly little space to defend.

If you have to fall back, you can leap off the sides, and if you stick close to the walls of the hill you can flank the brains out of anyone at the top, who have to expose their whole mech to shoot at you.

I love it. That little hill is like a whole map by itself.

[Zordicron]

Kiiyor, on 24 November 2014 - 11:37 PM, said:

I

I love it. That little hill is like a whole map by itself.

Well, you have that mostly right. I suppose some players don/t mind the very small actual fighting area. Some players despise Alpine though too. I love Alpine, and would rather we were fighting on much larger maps all the time.

[Kiiyor]

Eldagore, on 25 November 2014 - 04:56 AM, said:

Well, you have that mostly right. I suppose some players don/t mind the very small actual fighting area. Some players despise Alpine though too. I love Alpine, and would rather we were fighting on much larger maps all the time.

I'm with you, I'd love bigger maps.

I was just pointing out (what I believe to be) clever design. The hill is has a lot of tactical options, but is vulnerable to wide flanking if you can convince your team to do it.

[ProfessorLava]

I know a lot of people hate this map but I absolutely love it.

You are absolutely right that this map demands constant movement! As a summoner pilot I can really come into my own on this map. I dance around assaults, I fly over other heavies, and I have even chased down lights in the fringes!

[Killstorm999999]

Yeah, I don't get this hourglass shaped maps. HPG Manifold is the same way, though it's choke point area is very large and interesting.

The maps really should take the basic form of a square, not these weird shapes that we have now. With the square shapes the spawn points could be clustered in opposite corners, so as the teams advance towards each other the map widens. In contrast, when maps have a choke point the map just gets narrower, both teams meet, and all the terrain behind both teams goes to waste.

Edited by Deltron Zero, 25 November 2014 - 05:26 AM.

[topgun505]

Looks beautiful. Sucks to fight in. Honestly I think this is my most hated map at this point. I'd rather fight in Mordor. There's just so much crap, roots and such, to get snagged on. If you are a light it is far too easy to glance back to try and catch a glimpse of what is following you and *snag* then boom. High alpha to the face because you stopped for a split second. This map also severely punishes non-jumping mechs even more than Canyons.

As was stated already, all fights seem to immediately resolve at d4. Some additional climb points on the higher plateaus would probably be beneficial.

Edited by topgun505, 25 November 2014 - 08:26 AM.

[Sprouticus]

Love it.

i do see a lot of fighting @ D4. But I also see a lot of fighting where one team goes to C4 and other to D4.

And I see a ton where you get fast flank attacks on the rear, split attacks and even some fighting in the lily pads (as stupid as that is), it works for jumping lights. I also find the shelss really cool because you can use them for cover even while in the 'open'.

I love that if you use heat mode, you can see mechs better but often miss obstacles and get snagged. a real +/- to using infra vision.

It is also very interesting in assault mode.


the thing I find most interesting is that the high ground is NOT always the best spot to be. The walls are high enough that you can often flank and move to eliminate the advantage of the high ground. (It is usually the best place to START though. Once you get engaged you have to be willing to jump down.

The steps ARE annoying though, that I agree with 100%

[Sachimon]

Let's be honest... I appologise to any one cause... that was me who played more than 10 times this map right after update and pressed my team to control the D4 point. Now it's become a habit in masses.
Other thing this map is just O7 for precisele movement and hight tention battle using all terrain including immortal trees. Most of players don't know how to advance sreight to target using terrain and objects for cover.

So, now... with my little help as first hours commander on this map... who controls D4, controls 2/3 of a map. But... there is one thing, there is so much cover around D4 that honestly this "D4" position is not just an dominating hill, but also a death trap. I convince, I did that on purpose, I did know about that position cons. Just spend few rides in Beridian Frog on training ground you'll see what I'm talking about.

That map is Gr8 exsample of teamplay... when 1 part of a team holding enemy on one location, other brings a panic rising turkey shootout.

Just learn the map.

[Sprouticus]

Sachimon, on 25 November 2014 - 09:27 AM, said:

Let's be honest... I appologise to any one cause... that was me who played more than 10 times this map right after update and pressed my team to control the D4 point. Now it's become a habit in masses.
Other thing this map is just O7 for precisele movement and hight tention battle using all terrain including immortal trees. Most of players don't know how to advance sreight to target using terrain and objects for cover.

So, now... with my little help as first hours commander on this map... who controls D4, controls 2/3 of a map. But... there is one thing, there is so much cover around D4 that honestly this "D4" position is not just an dominating hill, but also a death trap. I convince, I did that on purpose, I did know about that position cons. Just spend few rides in Beridian Frog on training ground you'll see what I'm talking about.

That map is Gr8 exsample of teamplay... when 1 part of a team holding enemy on one location, other brings a panic rising turkey shootout.

Just learn the map.

D4 gives the team that controls it inside lines. If the opposing force splits up, it is easy to rush the smaller force by jumping down. Sure you hurt your legs, but if 8-10 drop and you can take out 3-6 enemy mechs in the process, you have won the match.

[Sachimon]

Sprouticus, on 25 November 2014 - 10:01 AM, said:

D4 gives the team that controls it inside lines. If the opposing force splits up, it is easy to rush the smaller force by jumping down. Sure you hurt your legs, but if 8-10 drop and you can take out 3-6 enemy mechs in the process, you have won the match.

Nope, who told you they will got chance to land? No one. Just massive suppressive fire from the sides like C3/C4 and D5/E4 and you got hill covered with dead robots bodies.

Edited by Sachimon, 25 November 2014 - 10:05 AM.

[Sprouticus]

Sachimon, on 25 November 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

Nope, who told you they will got chance to land? No one. Just massive suppressive fire from the sides like C3/C4 and D5/E4 and you got hill covered with dead robots bodies.

If the team masses on one side, you can se the curve of the plateau to snipe against them, just abandon the half of the curve where the enemy is.

or use the area by the steps down low with a couple of mech hiding up high, holding the hill and waiting for a rush to have flanking shots.

D4 hill is still the best option, you just have to be willing to abandon it. It is not like the hill in Alpine where you can jsut sit there all game.

[Zordicron]

Sachimon, on 25 November 2014 - 09:27 AM, said:

Let's be honest... I appologise to any one cause... that was me who played more than 10 times this map right after update and pressed my team to control the D4 point. Now it's become a habit in masses.
Other thing this map is just O7 for precisele movement and hight tention battle using all terrain including immortal trees. Most of players don't know how to advance sreight to target using terrain and objects for cover.

So, now... with my little help as first hours commander on this map... who controls D4, controls 2/3 of a map. But... there is one thing, there is so much cover around D4 that honestly this "D4" position is not just an dominating hill, but also a death trap. I convince, I did that on purpose, I did know about that position cons. Just spend few rides in Beridian Frog on training ground you'll see what I'm talking about.

That map is Gr8 exsample of teamplay... when 1 part of a team holding enemy on one location, other brings a panic rising turkey shootout.

Just learn the map.

Heh, Supreme Commander, I hate to say this but- with thousands of players on for the map going live, and you dropping with 240 or so players in those 10-11 matches, you did not single handedly create the meta for this map.

After playing this some more now, challenge weekend and after, the playerbase in PUG land has 100% abandoned the low ground, and only the very infrequent squirrel chase takes anyone to the spawn ends of the map. The entire match falls within 3-4 grid squares, and I would say 75% of that involves D4. This map is rapidly becoming dull, at least tactically. The cat and mouse game can be intense, but it could be so much better if it wasn't at the exact same place every time.