12 replies to this topic

[Choppah]

TLDR at bottom.

Recap for those who are unaware: In Table Top, dice are rolled to determine where on a mech your shots landed. Because in MWO we have manual control over aiming, this lead to the PinPoint (PP) Front Loaded Damage (FLD) meta we have now. Now a lot of players would be unhappy with the idea of weapons not hitting where they were aimed. However, by having instantaneous convergence on every weapon the Time To Kill (TTK) for mechs is incredibly low. Sized hardpoints has also been thrown around, but lots of players don't want these limitations for their mechs. So how do we please everyone? What system allows aiming to be rewarded but not to a degree which breaks the fun of the game and does not limit customization?

Here is a solution: Auto spread damage. Any component of a mech receiving more than 10 damage within 0.5 seconds has the damage randomly spread to an adjacent component. Since this single rule does not cover every situation, I have outlined several more rules:

1. The damage must spread to all other components first (except the head), before the initially struck component can receive more than 10 damage. Example, a “Dire Star” alpha strikes with 9 ERPPCs and hits the front CT of a mech for 135 damage total. Front CT, LT, RT, LL, RL, LA, and RA receive 10 damage each, then the rear CT, LT, RT receive 10 damage each. With 35 damage left to spread, the front CT receives another 10, followed by the LT and RT. Finally the LL receives the last 5 damage. Obviously this is an extreme example, but it shows that no matter how monster of an alpha someone could make with any weapon/mech combinations, this system would prevent 1 shot coring.

2. If a component is already cored, damage spread priority is given to an adjacent section with the highest remaining armor or HP. Example 1, a mech with a cored CT and LT gets hit in the CT for 20 damage. The CT takes 10 and the RT, LL, or RL take the remaining 10. Example 2, same mech as above, but the RL gets hit for 20 damage, the only connected component to spread damage to would be the cored CT so the RL takes the full 20.

3. Shield arms do not spread damage and absorb the full amount from their connected torso and have the highest damage spread priority. Example 1, a mech with no hardpoint in the LA gets hit there for 100 damage. The LA absorbs all the damage it can until it is destroyed, the rest spreads to the LT and beyond. Example 2, same mech as above gets hit in the LT this time. LT takes 10 damage, LA takes all that it can before being destroyed, and the rest is spread to the other components.

Note: I know the examples above don’t really show it, but the damage would be spread randomly. I simply chose the components for these examples to make everything more concise. An above threshold hit to the CT on a fully armored mech could just as easily spread the damage to either leg, torso, or connected torso and arm.

So how would MWO play with this system? Chain firing weapons would be the new meta, the alpha strike key would be rarely needed. Missiles would be mostly unaffected, unless a mech is getting hit by multiple LRM boats, the damage is too spread to regularly go over the damage threshold. Laser vomit would be toned down and players would likely put in more heatsinks than lasers so they can chainfire as long as possible without overheating. AC20, Gauss, and CERPPCs would be the most affected by this change. Any single one of those would not do full damage to a component, but is taking the best weapons in the game down a notch really so bad?

TTK would be way up and being aggressive in attacking and scouting, would pay off better. Mechs with odd hitboxes like the Orion, Dragon, and Awesome won’t be as hampered by them. Also, lights will have a much easier time since their legs won’t get blown off nearly as often.

Finally, this is a more user friendly system for newer players to understand than the complicated Heat Scale with its pages of math and tables or the bizare PPC and Gauss combo alpha limitations. Plus, this system avoids the need to increase armor or internal structure... again. And being closer to TT and lore will please Btech and MW fans alike. Win, win for everyone!

Update/TLDR:
Both devs and/or players have said no to sized hardpoints, varying convergence, cone of fire, and slower fire rates. So what is an acceptable compromise? A higher threshold like 50 before auto spread? Or a new formula, if damage to a component exceeds X within Y seconds, spread damage by Z%? Is having only 10% damage spread reasonable? That would mean 5 damage out of a 50 alpha would be spread. What type of damage spread would you trade for ghost heat?

Edited by Choppah, 30 November 2014 - 07:28 PM.

[Nightmare1]

Ahahahahahahaha!!! Thanks, I needed a good laugh!

Oh wait, you were serious???

Dude, no. Auto spread damage is a horrible idea. I'll never understand why TT fans want to take random, dice-based mechanics and try to force them into a real-time, dynamic game. Go play TT if you want random chance; when I fire my guns, I want every bit of damage to go where I'm aiming, and not be "auto-spread" by a computer system. Let me succeed or fail based upon my own skills, rather than implementing a chance factor.

On top of that, 1-Shot coring is fine. I mean really, if a person wants to run a Direstar, that's their choice. Frankly, I think it's incredibly stupid, but if they want to melt themselves that's up to them. It's up to me to keep from offering them that chance to melt me in the process. No need to forcibly mitigate damage simply because I walked out in front of the Direstar; that's my fault and not the pilot of the Direstar's!

What I get out of posts like these, is a sense that a lot of gamers don't do well with their Mech movement. They don't think critically about the situation and they aren't fluid. When the battle changes, they can't react or adapt quickly enough. This leaves them vulnerable to front-loaded Mechs like your Direstar. The core issue here, is not front-loaded damage though. If it was, I wouldn't be able to utterly humiliate front-loaded players with my DPS based builds. The issue is instead, pilots who do not "look before the leap." They charge around corners, stand out in the open, don't watch their IFF Radar to make sure the group isn't leaving them, choose paths that separate them from the group, etc. In short, it's pilots who are not battle-conscious or who have problems with the basic gameplay mechanics. Lack of understanding of the game and lack of piloting skills are not reasons to nerf every single weapon and Mech mechanic for all the players that do possess this understanding.

Let's wait and see what happens with the Mentorship system instead. Perhaps that will be the key to fixing the issue. Once experienced pilots are able to teach inexperienced pilots about the game, and consequently help them up their game, then these front-loaded Mechs won't be such a challenge to them.

If there's one thing I've learned from front-loading, it's that the first shot is epic, but that subsequent ones leave much to be desired. If they miss that all-important first shot, it's usually fairly easy to kill them because they are too hot to effectively fight.

[Choppah]

Nightmare1, on 29 November 2014 - 02:59 PM, said:

Dude, no. Auto spread damage is a horrible idea. I'll never understand why TT fans want to take random, dice-based mechanics and try to force them into a real-time, dynamic game. Go play TT if you want random chance; when I fire my guns, I want every bit of damage to go where I'm aiming, and not be "auto-spread" by a computer system. Let me succeed or fail based upon my own skills, rather than implementing a chance factor.

Even extremely competitive games have some randomness to them, it keeps things interesting and fresh. When one tactic becomes completely dominant, balance is broken and the game stagnates. Dumping all damage into one spot is not how TT was designed, if the devs want to change all the weapon and armor stats to correct for this, I would love to try it out. I agree that aiming should be rewarded, but, as is, it is breaking the game. So many convoluted changes have been made to get around the fact that boating certain weapons destroys mechs far too quickly to be fun. Namely, heat scale and the anti ppc/gauss combo measures.

Is it satisfying when a Boom Jager instantly knocks out a side torso? For the jager user it is. For everyone else, popping out of cover means they could end up losing an entire torso and arm instantly, crippling them for the rest of the match. So in PUG matches the same thing happens over and over, the PUGs are too scared to move and they get stepped on when they do. All of this destroys strategy and makes for a boring stalemate of a game.

Quote

On top of that, 1-Shot coring is fine. I mean really, if a person wants to run a Direstar, that's their choice. Frankly, I think it's incredibly stupid, but if they want to melt themselves that's up to them. It's up to me to keep from offering them that chance to melt me in the process. No need to forcibly mitigate damage simply because I walked out in front of the Direstar; that's my fault and not the pilot of the Direstar's!

The Dire Star example was just to show how the system works. The only strength of that build was to use its extreme effective range to crush mechs unaware they were even being targeted (810 meters is outside radar range unless you have BAP or the Sensor Range module).

Quote

What I get out of posts like these, is a sense that a lot of gamers don't do well with their Mech movement. They don't think critically about the situation and they aren't fluid. When the battle changes, they can't react or adapt quickly enough. This leaves them vulnerable to front-loaded Mechs like your Direstar. The core issue here, is not front-loaded damage though. If it was, I wouldn't be able to utterly humiliate front-loaded players with my DPS based builds. The issue is instead, pilots who do not "look before the leap." They charge around corners, stand out in the open, don't watch their IFF Radar to make sure the group isn't leaving them, choose paths that separate them from the group, etc. In short, it's pilots who are not battle-conscious or who have problems with the basic gameplay mechanics. Lack of understanding of the game and lack of piloting skills are not reasons to nerf every single weapon and Mech mechanic for all the players that do possess this understanding.

The entire point of having mechs is to charge around corners and push out in the open is to force the enemy to fight on their terms. What is the point of giant walking mechs if their armor can't last more than a few seconds? That isn't a mechwarrior game, that is just like any other FPS except with more awkward movement.

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If there's one thing I've learned from front-loading, it's that the first shot is epic, but that subsequent ones leave much to be desired. If they miss that all-important first shot, it's usually fairly easy to kill them because they are too hot to effectively fight.

Again, how is "LOL i fired one alpha and ruined your fresh mech for the rest of the round" fun? If anything my system forces players to aim longer and more consistently. The players with the steadiest hands will still be on top. Popping out, alpha striking, and retreating should not be the only tactic in the game.

With the rates of fire and the armor we have now, the TTK is just too low. I agree players should be aware of their surroundings and learn how to pilot their mech, but that really isn’t the main issue. The main issue is the mechs handle like tanks, because they are meant to represent a futuristic version of them. Tank warfare is a very mobile type, sitting still in a hull down position is only recommended when outnumbered or fighting defensively. Obviously, a tank should not foolishly rush out expecting his armor to block everything, but the armor is reliable enough to take some fire and keep going. In MWO, if you managed not to instantly die during a big push, you know this feeling.

That is my ultimate goal, for mechs besides 100 tonners to have reliable enough armor to take a decent amount of fire without being crippled. This will allow whole new strategies to open up, expanding the depth of the game. But you can hold on to your “skill trumps all” mindset if you wish, I would just like to play a mech game that is more than peek-a-boo counter alpha strike.

[Lightfoot]

MechWarrior spreads damage randomly by the dynamic movement of the mechs, which is what the dice roll in table-top was trying to simulate.

If movement isn't spreading the damage enough the hit-boxes are too big. The danger of making MechWarrior too similar to table top and dice rolls is that you will lose any chance to have a Mech-Sim and just make an arcade table top game.

What MWO did to SSRMs was horrible and I have never used them since they gave them auto-spread damage. That was a gameplay killing response to a minor problem.

[ImperialKnight]

TL:DR

NO

[Sturmwind]

Nightmare1, on 29 November 2014 - 02:59 PM, said:

Dude, no. Auto spread damage is a horrible idea. I'll never understand why TT fans want to take random, dice-based mechanics and try to force them into a real-time, dynamic game. Go play TT if you want random chance; when I fire my guns, I want every bit of damage to go where I'm aiming, and not be "auto-spread" by a computer system. Let me succeed or fail based upon my own skills, rather than implementing a chance factor.

On top of that, 1-Shot coring is fine. I mean really, if a person wants to run a Direstar, that's their choice. Frankly, I think it's incredibly stupid, but if they want to melt themselves that's up to them. It's up to me to keep from offering them that chance to melt me in the process. No need to forcibly mitigate damage simply because I walked out in front of the Direstar; that's my fault and not the pilot of the Direstar's!

This. Auto-spread? No way!

[Burktross]

JUST GOTTA PULL OFF THIS AC20 SHOT AAAAAAN--- nerfed to ac10.
No, please. Increase the armor just don't nerf aiming

[happy mech]

i am out of words

[HlynkaCG]

sneeking, on 29 November 2014 - 10:11 PM, said:

This is an fps not a card dice game.

So which mechanic do you prefer?



Ghost Heat or Variable Convergence/Cone of Fire?

[Nightmare1]

Choppah, on 29 November 2014 - 08:52 PM, said:

Even extremely competitive games have some randomness to them, it keeps things interesting and fresh. When one tactic becomes completely dominant, balance is broken and the game stagnates.

Agreed, however, randomness does not need to be forcibly inserted. There are hundreds of examples of randomness every match from laggy gameplay to targets behaving in an unpredictable manner. I can't count the number of times I threw down on an enemy Mech and fired, only to have the pilot, who was completely oblivious to my presence, turn just enough so that my shot snaked under his armpit or between his legs, resulting in a clean miss. That's randomness.

As far as balance goes, we will never, ever see a fully balanced MWO. That's impossible, because there are enough hardcore, bean-counting gamers out there that will continually develop new metas every time the old ones are broken. PGI can only do so much balancing. Auto-spreading damage will not fix this since the metas themselves are unaffected. The only purpose it will serve will be to turn epic firefights into little more than seal-clubbing escapades.

Choppah, on 29 November 2014 - 08:52 PM, said:

Dumping all damage into one spot is not how TT was designed,

This isn't TT. You can't compare the two because their basic mechanics, gameplay, and very natures are as different as night and day. If you want TT, start a petition for PGI to pick up MWTactics and develop it instead.

Choppah, on 29 November 2014 - 08:52 PM, said:

I agree that aiming should be rewarded, but, as is, it is breaking the game.

This is the first time I've ever seen someone state that the basic act of aiming itself is OP and responsible for breaking the game. Wow...just...wow...

Choppah, on 29 November 2014 - 08:52 PM, said:

So many convoluted changes have been made to get around the fact that boating certain weapons destroys mechs far too quickly to be fun. Namely, heat scale and the anti ppc/gauss combo measures.

Unh-huh, and every time the pendulum swings one way, it knocks something else a little out of whack, thus the never ending cycle of balancing. The recent quirk system went a long way towards fixing that though, and the game actually feels fairly well balanced in its current state.

If you are being destroyed too quickly, I would recommend avoiding open spaces and try to stay with the main group. Failing to do so tends to lead to quick deaths.

Choppah, on 29 November 2014 - 08:52 PM, said:

Is it satisfying when a Boom Jager instantly knocks out a side torso? For the jager user it is. For everyone else, popping out of cover means they could end up losing an entire torso and arm instantly, crippling them for the rest of the match. So in PUG matches the same thing happens over and over, the PUGs are too scared to move and they get stepped on when they do. All of this destroys strategy and makes for a boring stalemate of a game.

No it's not, but that's just part of the game. I have successfully fought Boom Jagers with every class of Mech and defeated them. I have also been defeated by them. It all comes down to player skill and aiming. All the power in the world is no good if a pilot can't hit where he's shooting. Knowing how to spread damage on your Mech by using maneuvers and torso twisting also goes a long way towards improving your longevity in combat.

As far as your example goes, you are assuming that most pilots would walk up to the Boom Jager and make it easy to be shot. I say this instead; peek around corners, don't charge around them! Use the Boom Jager's weaknesses to your advantage. All Boom Jagers are short-ranged combatants. Fight at range. Most Boom Jager's have XL engines. Focus fire into a single torso. Jager's normally have thin rears; attack from behind. Boom Jager's typically have ammo shortages; bait him and make him waste his ammo, then close for the kill.

My point, is that each Mech, and this is especially true for boats, has its weakness. Rather than charge into the fray, cycle your targets and pick one you know you can fight. Use 3PV if needed (I don't) to peek around corners before you charge around them. Fight smart, and you'll find that you won't need PGI to auto-spread damage across your Mech.

Choppah, on 29 November 2014 - 08:52 PM, said:

The Dire Star example was just to show how the system works. The only strength of that build was to use its extreme effective range to crush mechs unaware they were even being targeted (810 meters is outside radar range unless you have BAP or the Sensor Range module).

Unh-huh, and I was simply using the example in kind. See my above point; each and every Mech and build has a weakness. Use the weakness to beat it. In short, fight smarter and you won't need PGI to give you a safety net and anger a lot of players who don't need or want it.

Choppah, on 29 November 2014 - 08:52 PM, said:

The entire point of having mechs is to charge around corners and push out in the open is to force the enemy to fight on their terms. What is the point of giant walking mechs if their armor can't last more than a few seconds? That isn't a mechwarrior game, that is just like any other FPS except with more awkward movement.

Fools rush in where Angels fear to tread. No matter how much armor or auto-spread you have, rushing out into the open and charging headlong down enemy guns is a sure-fire tactic if you want to lose. Again, fight smarter.

Choppah, on 29 November 2014 - 08:52 PM, said:

Again, how is "LOL i fired one alpha and ruined your fresh mech for the rest of the round" fun?

It is if you're the one doing the ruining.

Besides, like I said previously, my DPS builds consistently out-match Alpha builds for the simple reason that you can't sustain Alpha-based combat effectively. Be smart about when you fire into enemies, and don't offer long targeting windows. If you're fighting a high-Alpha Mech, use maneuvers to put him at a disadvantage. Milk his firepower and force him to expend too much ammo and heat, then close for the kill. It's really not that hard to kill an Alpha-focused gamer.

Choppah, on 29 November 2014 - 08:52 PM, said:

If anything my system forces players to aim longer and more consistently. The players with the steadiest hands will still be on top. Popping out, alpha striking, and retreating should not be the only tactic in the game.

I disagree. You system will simply turn this into a clubbing match and ruin the tactical elements of it. You appear to want an "I'm charging and firing" Halo-type game; this ain't it! Frankly, the ability to be cored easily is important to me in the game. It teaches patience and tactics, and makes the game more fun, even though I don't take advantage of Alpha gameplay much. I see it as a fun challenge that keeps me on my toes. Like I said previously, I don't begrudge other pilots their ability to boat weapons; that is a cornerstone of MWO, after all. I figure that it's up to me to spread the damage via piloting and to avoid offering them any opportunities to shoot me. If you can't manage that, then I'm sorry, but it hardly constitutes a requirement to nerf my gameplay.

Choppah, on 29 November 2014 - 08:52 PM, said:

With the rates of fire and the armor we have now, the TTK is just too low. I agree players should be aware of their surroundings and learn how to pilot their mech, but that really isn’t the main issue. The main issue is the mechs handle like tanks, because they are meant to represent a futuristic version of them. Tank warfare is a very mobile type, sitting still in a hull down position is only recommended when outnumbered or fighting defensively. Obviously, a tank should not foolishly rush out expecting his armor to block everything, but the armor is reliable enough to take some fire and keep going. In MWO, if you managed not to instantly die during a big push, you know this feeling.

I'm guessing that your elo must be low, and that you're playing with a lot of new pilots. I don't mean that negatively; it's just that my understanding of gameplay on that end of the elo bracket is that pilots behave in a static fashion. Where I am, the gameplay is very fluid and highly changeable, even in Pug matches. Pilots are very good about offering small firing windows and spreading damage across their entire Mech. From the matches I play, I literally see no need to implement an auto-spread feature and believe that it will kill the gameplay, turning it into stale, stand-in-the-open-and-pound-each-other-into-snail-snot gameplay. I'd rather keep the current, fast-paced dynamic instead.

On top of that, if pilots are already too afraid to move in your matches, implementing auto-spread won't change that. Timidity is a state of mind, and simply improving your Mech's durability will not change that state since all Mechs will have their durability boosted similarly. If anything, your method would bode ill for Light Mechs while Assaults would benefit substantially. In the end, auto-spread would do more to unbalance the game than it would to balance it, result in no change to your static gameplay, and introduce static play to the higher elo brackets.

Instead, try taking command during a match and providing some direction. I've found that, surprisingly, if you talk with simple courtesy and sketch out a plan of attack, a lot of Puggers will try to follow it. Rather than simply being a part of the morass of Mechs that is a "team," why not rise up, take charge, and lead your team to victory? Provide direction, and you'll be surprised at what can be accomplished.

Choppah, on 29 November 2014 - 08:52 PM, said:

That is my ultimate goal, for mechs besides 100 tonners to have reliable enough armor to take a decent amount of fire without being crippled. This will allow whole new strategies to open up, expanding the depth of the game. But you can hold on to your “skill trumps all” mindset if you wish, I would just like to play a mech game that is more than peek-a-boo counter alpha strike.

*Shrug* I run my 50 ton Cents and HBKs and absorb quite a bit of damage. Even my XL Mechs take quite a beating before they die, do largely in part to how I time my attacks and how I spread my damage.

In the end, skill really does trump all. Peek-a-boo, poptarting, tanking, skirmishing, etc are all features of gameplay. You can't rationally deny every type of gameplay you dislike because there are pilots out there that do like them. In short, this game cannot satisfy everyone, but it's doing a good job, I think, of satisfying as many gamers as it can. Implementing auto-spread will just result in a sad, boring gameplay that most of us do not want to see. If it happens, then I think we'll see a lot more sad pilots than happy ones.

As a final note, if you'd like to see some examples of what I refer to when I talk about tactics and fighting smart, I encourage you to check out my Twitch channel in my sig. You'll find a lot of highlights and past broadcasts that may help you understand my point of view. Also, if you ever want to run drops with me, I'd be happy to bring you into one of my groups the next time I'm online.

Adios!

[Choppah]

Updated OP. I need to explain this better. Let me try again.

How many good multiplayer FPS allows perfect aim and accuracy at all times? In the past decade, none. Why? Because games have already moved past this. Gamers have moved away from Unreal Tournament and Quake style aiming mechanics. However, MWO remains stuck in the past. Instagib railgun deathmatches were fun for a long while, but their time has passed. Gamers demanded more depth and complexity, and we got it. Why go backwards?

Players must realize that having aim be rewarded so far beyond what basic of a gaming skill it is (using a mouse to place a crosshair on an object), is bad for the game. Counter-Strike, Call of Duty, Halo, World of tanks, etc., are all extremely popular with large competitive scenes even though skill is effectively capped by cone of fire. Map knowledge, positioning, teamwork, and understanding of game mechanics are rewarded more in those games than just being a good shot.

That being said, something has to give. You can't have everything, there are reasons why aiming cannot always be perfect. From scope sway to COF to recoil to loadout restrictions, modern FPS games have had some way to tone down the inherent imbalance of perfect aim.

So look again at what the system in the OP describes. If you want focus damage you have to chain fire, for just raw damage, you can alpha. Suddenly losing 50 points of armor is still painful and not event a player would wish to happen again in a match. Targeting a specific component to destroy without spreading any damage is still possible, it just takes a little longer.

The reasoning behind this is new MWO players are destroyed too quickly to learn what happened and why. The learning curve is binary, sink or swim. Granted, part of this is due to the matchmaking and ELO systems. Yet, the largest part is damage output and perfect aim. Dropship mode may help, respawning will allow players to evaluate their actions and respond to a previous threat. But, perfect aim lurks in the shadows, waiting to pounce on any noob who dare leaves cover.

Nightmare1, on 30 November 2014 - 01:16 PM, said:

Agreed, however, randomness does not need to be forcibly inserted. There are hundreds of examples of randomness every match from laggy gameplay to targets behaving in an unpredictable manner. I can't count the number of times I threw down on an enemy Mech and fired, only to have the pilot, who was completely oblivious to my presence, turn just enough so that my shot snaked under his armpit or between his legs, resulting in a clean miss. That's randomness.

As far as balance goes, we will never, ever see a fully balanced MWO. That's impossible, because there are enough hardcore, bean-counting gamers out there that will continually develop new metas every time the old ones are broken. PGI can only do so much balancing. Auto-spreading damage will not fix this since the metas themselves are unaffected. The only purpose it will serve will be to turn epic firefights into little more than seal-clubbing escapades.

This isn't TT. You can't compare the two because their basic mechanics, gameplay, and very natures are as different as night and day. If you want TT, start a petition for PGI to pick up MWTactics and develop it instead.

What I was trying to convey was, either MWO should go closer to TT or further away, the current limbo it is in now results in more dumb matches than fun ones. One cannot just copy TT stats, change a few up or down and call it a day. I don't care which direction the devs go, just as long as things continue to move forward. Quirks are start, if a little off, but we are still stuck with ghost heat.

Quote

This is the first time I've ever seen someone state that the basic act of aiming itself is OP and responsible for breaking the game. Wow...just...wow...

In the context of TT. No one would ever play TT if players could pick any part of a mech to fire at with 100% accuracy. Double armor does not compensate for 2 to 10 times weapon fire rate.

Quote

Unh-huh, and every time the pendulum swings one way, it knocks something else a little out of whack, thus the never ending cycle of balancing. The recent quirk system went a long way towards fixing that though, and the game actually feels fairly well balanced in its current state.

Don't you see? The swinging balance changes are a symptom of the underlying fundamental flaw, which is perfect aim.

Quote

Lots of stuff which = L2P Scrubtard *

I love how it is assumed that I want these changes is because I'm unable to adapt. In MWO, ELO assumes 1 great player and 3 bads are the same as 2 average and 2 below average. The reason I want these changes is because I'm tired of carrying my team. I'm tired of getting 2 kills, 400 damage in the first few minutes, only to realize the rest of my team failed to move forward and was slaughtered. I'm tired of ridge humping over the caldera to nail someone who could never have known his mech's shoulder was exposed for a split second where the terrain dips ever so slightly, and now he is screwed. I'm tired of being unable to just speak in PUGs, and give them more expansive directions that typing does not allow for. I'm tired having to always pick a mech that is solely designed for maximum damage output, that punches well above its weight, because if I pick a support or scouting role I am hampering my team. In the end, I'm tired of being in the top 5 of a match and seeing the huge gap to 6.


*JK

Edited by Choppah, 30 November 2014 - 07:26 PM.

[Nightmare1]

Choppah, on 30 November 2014 - 07:23 PM, said:

Updated OP. I need to explain this better. Let me try again.

How many good multiplayer FPS allows perfect aim and accuracy at all times? In the past decade, none. Why? Because games have already moved past this. Gamers have moved away from Unreal Tournament and Quake style aiming mechanics. However, MWO remains stuck in the past. Instagib railgun deathmatches were fun for a long while, but their time has passed. Gamers demanded more depth and complexity, and we got it. Why go backwards?

Players must realize that having aim be rewarded so far beyond what basic of a gaming skill it is (using a mouse to place a crosshair on an object), is bad for the game. Counter-Strike, Call of Duty, Halo, World of tanks, etc., are all extremely popular with large competitive scenes even though skill is effectively capped by cone of fire. Map knowledge, positioning, teamwork, and understanding of game mechanics are rewarded more in those games than just being a good shot.

That being said, something has to give. You can't have everything, there are reasons why aiming cannot always be perfect. From scope sway to COF to recoil to loadout restrictions, modern FPS games have had some way to tone down the inherent imbalance of perfect aim.

Those are also all examples of games where players take the role of a soldier carrying a gun. In this one, we're taking the of pilots running large war machines equipped with gyroscopic stabilizers, targeting computers, and incredibly powerful myomer muscle systems. It makes more sense for our targeting crosshairs to be fairly stable in this game than it does in others.

That being said, there is still a lot of skill necessary to make those shots. I played quite a bit tonight and, embarrassingly, missed a lot of shots because I was not compensating for enemy speed and distance enough. When I did connect, my DPS based builds typically did not deal substantial damage like enemy Alpha based builds did. That being said, I did stand toe-to-toe with some Alpha pilots and beat them because I was able to use their builds against them.

In MWO, it is okay to have accurate targeting mechanisms because the Tech and precedence is there. It's up to us as pilots to place those shots where they matter. High Alpha builds are simply a part of the game; you don't have to run them if you don't wish to, nor do you have to succumb to them.

Choppah, on 30 November 2014 - 07:23 PM, said:

So look again at what the system in the OP describes. If you want focus damage you have to chain fire, for just raw damage, you can alpha. Suddenly losing 50 points of armor is still painful and not event a player would wish to happen again in a match. Targeting a specific component to destroy without spreading any damage is still possible, it just takes a little longer.

This would kill Lights and some Mediums that rely on that quick pulse of fire as they race past. They don't have the armor or firepower to go toe-to-toe and slug it out with larger Mechs. Considering that their roles are already too small in the game, implementing your system would reduce the number of players piloting these Mechs substantially.

As far as chain fire goes, it is more valuable than an Alpha, currently, due to Ghost Heat. I try not to Alpha often because I know that the extra incurred Ghost Heat is not offset enough by my damage output.

Choppah, on 30 November 2014 - 07:23 PM, said:

The reasoning behind this is new MWO players are destroyed too quickly to learn what happened and why. The learning curve is binary, sink or swim. Granted, part of this is due to the matchmaking and ELO systems. Yet, the largest part is damage output and perfect aim. Dropship mode may help, respawning will allow players to evaluate their actions and respond to a previous threat. But, perfect aim lurks in the shadows, waiting to pounce on any noob who dare leaves cover.

For newbs, perfect aim is not as critical as other, more glaring problems. Implementing auto-spread may save them for a moment, but, in the end, their fate will remain the same. They simply won't have the skills necessary to duke it out with seasoned pilots, and may become aggravated when they finally get their chance to shoot back, only to have it auto-spread into oblivion. It has also been my experience that newbs are more prone to Alpha striking that seasoned vets, so I believe the system will disproportionately affect them.

More promising is PGI's proposed Mentorship System. I encourage you to take a look at it; you may have some views or advice for them that could be helpful. You may also want to consider being a Mentor for newbs.

Choppah, on 30 November 2014 - 07:23 PM, said:

What I was trying to convey was, either MWO should go closer to TT or further away, the current limbo it is in now results in more dumb matches than fun ones. One cannot just copy TT stats, change a few up or down and call it a day. I don't care which direction the devs go, just as long as things continue to move forward. Quirks are start, if a little off, but we are still stuck with ghost heat.

I'll agree with all that.

Choppah, on 30 November 2014 - 07:23 PM, said:

In the context of TT. No one would ever play TT if players could pick any part of a mech to fire at with 100% accuracy. Double armor does not compensate for 2 to 10 times weapon fire rate.

...And in MWO, you still can't choose a Mech component and fire with 100% accuracy. There are too many variables such as speed, distance, projectile fall-off, enemy pilot behavior, personal skill, additional target and friendly Mech movements, screen shake, etc. to say that your shot will go exactly where you plan 100% of the time. I had a lot of shots go into the wrong Mech component or miss clean tonight because of any number of these.

Choppah, on 30 November 2014 - 07:23 PM, said:

Don't you see? The swinging balance changes are a symptom of the underlying fundamental flaw, which is perfect aim.

The underlying flaw, to me, is PGI's attempt to make this into a TT style shooter. "Perfect aim," as you call it, seems a very minor issue to me.

Choppah, on 30 November 2014 - 07:23 PM, said:

I love how it is assumed that I want these changes is because I'm unable to adapt. In MWO, ELO assumes 1 great player and 3 bads are the same as 2 average and 2 below average. The reason I want these changes is because I'm tired of carrying my team. I'm tired of getting 2 kills, 400 damage in the first few minutes, only to realize the rest of my team failed to move forward and was slaughtered. I'm tired of ridge humping over the caldera to nail someone who could never have known his mech's shoulder was exposed for a split second where the terrain dips ever so slightly, and now he is screwed. I'm tired of being unable to just speak in PUGs, and give them more expansive directions that typing does not allow for. I'm tired having to always pick a mech that is solely designed for maximum damage output, that punches well above its weight, because if I pick a support or scouting role I am hampering my team. In the end, I'm tired of being in the top 5 of a match and seeing the huge gap to 6.

Well, your OP originally did sound like a complain post, the kind best typified by pilots who are incapable or still training. No offense was intended.

I do understand about the repetition though in matches. I think that we should wait and see what CW and the Mentorship System do for the game before we go changing core mechanics though.

Choppah, on 30 November 2014 - 07:23 PM, said:

*JK

No prob!

My drop offer still stands if you ever want to take me up on it.

[Choppah]

Nightmare1, on 30 November 2014 - 07:47 PM, said:

For newbs, perfect aim is not as critical as other, more glaring problems. Implementing auto-spread may save them for a moment, but, in the end, their fate will remain the same. They simply won't have the skills necessary to duke it out with seasoned pilots, and may become aggravated when they finally get their chance to shoot back, only to have it auto-spread into oblivion. It has also been my experience that newbs are more prone to Alpha striking that seasoned vets, so I believe the system will disproportionately affect them.

More promising is PGI's proposed Mentorship System. I encourage you to take a look at it; you may have some views or advice for them that could be helpful. You may also want to consider being a Mentor for newbs.



My drop offer still stands if you ever want to take me up on it.

I guess that is fair, in the end, situational awareness and familiarity with their mech will benefit noobs the most. Surviving an extra few seconds out in the open won't help anyone if they don't have have a plan. No system can save people from terrible decisions.

Since all my lance mates stopped playing I have probably exhausted myself in the solo que. I will take you up on your offer. PM sent.

----------------------------

Okay everybody, thread over, now back to the regularly scheduled ghost heat.