10 replies to this topic

[Zephonarch II]

Alpine 2.0? Where TO start in the PGI map editor.
(whoops, typo)

Share your thoughts, the map is included. (updated with legend)


I've been to the training grounds and I have some ideas on how this map could be revamped.
I moved this to Feature Suggestions from the Patch Archive Forum, because I assume it applies under both. Taking into account the devs haven't bumped it yet, plus it already is classified as feedback on the map they're currently planning to revise, plus2x here it'll reach more people. I hope that's ok PGI.

First to utilize more space, the boundaries should be scaled back. Rarely do I ever see players in using the mountain peaks from K3 ALL THE WAY AROUND up north, behind the antenna relay station, and behind the enclosed base at G12/13. I used a bj-3 to go up those mountains and I guessed that the mountains were that steep for presentation purposes. Now, frankfully Alpine is a big map. But in the long run, it prevented how many different battles could take place, causing maps to ruin some games for some people. Specifically those with only Short-range builds.
So to compensate I'd use some editor tools to flatten out themountain stretch K3-G13 to make space for more in-land mountains, additional camp-bases, ridges, even tunnels inside the mountain to emphasize more flanking the CQC guys.

Specifically,G4 to E6 diagonally could be an extra camp. slightly connected to the Sigma base. And the F6 co-ordinate could be raised along towards flattened D6. But generally this camp would still be at a higher altitude than Sigma-base.

E7-D7 could be turned into a drop/clearing changing the dynamic of flanking through the E9-corridor into a crazy bottleneck. BUT. TO alleviate pain, turn d8-d9-e9'scliff edge into a ridge (1 or 2 paths that lights can actually use to spot targets from on either side accessible from both sides.

The H12-I12 mountain is very interesting. If players could access the top of the mountain by a small climbable slope from Gamma-base, then the mountain can be used for flanking. That and tunnels can be added to it by cutting into the bottom. Connecting G12 to I12 together through some say? An underground mechlab?

And the very south part of the map, there could be a canyon that provide more opportunities for flanking and short range fights. In other words the short hills would be turn into an abyss of canyons from K4 to K10. Just an idea I had that would give variety to the map. Plus it would could eventually connect the Sigma and J12 bases together. A good Conquest route in my opinion, ie. the last survioring Jenner running through it for a cap win, and then... an Ilya shows up to alpha 3 LBXs in it's bulgy CT. Boom, great ending. And it'd make use of M7. Really what's the point of that loop down there?

EDIT: I have a photobucket account now, so here are the changes I meant to propose last time on this thread. Please PGI consider talking about previous content next townhall ( old maps ; new maps )

LEGEND:
Green splotches: Sink terrain
Orange blotches: New clearings
Red lines: New intended mech attacking "traffic"
Blue lines: New intended mech defensive "traffic"
Dotted-Dark Red lines: Underground passages
Green lines: (THICK) Frozen land bridges connecting mountains to other mountains
Light Purple Blobs: Possible new bases to defend
Dark Purple Dots: New structures (stalagmites/tites, base blockades)
Yellow lines: Possible CW gates
Black barriers: Meant to isolate base defenders inside, and attackers outside. Meant to make CW possible in the form of adding walls to breachable openings in drooping sections of mountains. But still not block vantage points for defenders.
Blue splotches: Proposed new mountains






Example of the green lines/ ice bridges connecting mountains together:

Edited by Zephonarch II, 21 December 2014 - 12:27 PM.

[Kalimaster]

I don't think a scale change is needed. I know that you don't think that a few of the peaks are used, but then I don't think that you have played in a few matches on this map where the majority of people were "sniper" set-ups. Those turn into crazy matches where the only thing that can dislodge a sniper is an LRM barrage.

[zortesh]

Alpine needs its bases moved, perhaps multiple variants of the map where the bases are in different locations.

Ie: base should not be within los of h9 hill.

We should have several variants with bases in different locations, so we can fight over more of the terrain on this map, as opposed to just radio tower and h9 hill, infact each map should have variants with differently placed bases just for variation in how the game plays out.


This would put most of the interesting terrain between both the bases, with no crazy hills to defend.. mostly.

Also instead of tunnel, have a frozen river with broken ice parts you can exit out of.... i mean sneaking through a claustrophobic cave made out of ice and flooded with water would just be awesome.

Edited by zortesh, 02 December 2014 - 04:46 PM.

[ImperialKnight]

The map has some fundamental problems. The whole map slopes down from C line to L line. Meaning you cannot set one team spawning on higher ground while one spawns lower. This was the problem with the old spawn points way back and PGI tried to solve it by changing the spawns.

However, it is next to impossible to eliminate the fact that H9/I9 Hill has a massively overwhelming tactical advantage over any other parts of the map. Whoever knows how to control the hill can never lose once it is taken. Which is why most fights degrade into fights over that hill.

Another problem is that H9/I9 Hill is asymmetric. What most people don't realise is that the team spawning on the left is actually the better spawn. The gentle slope on that side actually makes it easier to charge up the hill and is harder to push off. The team on the right actually has the worse spawn. One, because if their assault lance spawns furthest from the hill, they've had it. Their assaults will not make it up the hill at least for 3-4 minutes. Two, because it is steeper on that side, if they are pushed off, they've had it again, it's next to impossible to push back up. Which is not the case for the left team.

The problem is even worse on Assault mode where the team on the right can just sit up on the hill to defend their base without having to come down.

The map is also too big, it takes too long to maneuver and reposition even if you wanted to.

There is no simple fix to Alpine Peaks.

[Egomane]

zortesh, on 02 December 2014 - 04:41 PM, said:

I guess you meant to change the starting positions as well? Because if not, blue will have an easy victory each time by simply marching the southern lance the 500 meters into the red base. The closest defending red lance is more then 2 klicks out. The closest thread to blues base is also more then 2 clicks away, while the defending lace sits right on top of the new blue placement.

Considering that, I believe it was your intent to change the starting positions together with the bases.

If you change the lance starting positions for a north/south setup like that, it will provide easy access for the blue team to the H9/I10 hill. They can simply walk up to it and still play the king of the hill game. Nothing changed at all!


All that said:
A data extraction from Karl Berg some time ago, which he sadly didn't publish but only told us about, showed that both teams win on this map with surprisingly equal chances. I'll link the post, once I find it again.

I'd like it if the capture nodes in conquest would be more spread out, but otherwise I believe the map to fine the way it is.

[zortesh]

Egomane, on 03 December 2014 - 11:11 AM, said:

I guess you meant to change the starting positions as well? Because if not, blue will have an easy victory each time by simply marching the southern lance the 500 meters into the red base. The closest defending red lance is more then 2 klicks out. The closest thread to blues base is also more then 2 clicks away, while the defending lace sits right on top of the new blue placement.

Considering that, I believe it was your intent to change the starting positions together with the bases.

If you change the lance starting positions for a north/south setup like that, it will provide easy access for the blue team to the H9/I10 hill. They can simply walk up to it and still play the king of the hill game. Nothing changed at all!


All that said:
A data extraction from Karl Berg some time ago, which he sadly didn't publish but only told us about, showed that both teams win on this map with surprisingly equal chances. I'll link the post, once I find it again.

I'd like it if the capture nodes in conquest would be more spread out, but otherwise I believe the map to fine the way it is.

Ofcourse change the starting positions, i was just too lazy to change that and its fairly obvious the spawns would need changing aswell.

I actully like the capture nodes on conquest, conquest is the one time i enjoy playing alpine.

And they couldn't play the king of the hill game, the only reason that works atall is that there base is within line of sight of the hill, put the base anywhere out of los of that hill and that hill is immediately worthless.

I actully find pushing up that hill quite easy, especially with narc + lrm support... but every single fight revolving around that hill is really really getting old...

[Zephonarch II]

I'm in agreement with relocating the spawns and nodes around the map. But orignally I meant design-changes. Thoughts that came across my head, that could make use of the map as well as the Mining Collective were to raise, sink the slopes in the sides of the mountains to create nice clearings in the NW part of the map. I mean, every match seems to gravitate towards fights along the H-line(fighting for the hill, to brawling in h6), fights up along the e8 corridor and g9 corridor. Sometimes, team's will choose to flank down the j-line but it's discouraged.

It only feels disappointing when the large sections of the map never see more than 5-6 mechs group up. Especially places where the devs already put something present, like J12 and other boundary sections of the map. What's the point of the base there? Not enough cover to hold a good brawl, so it's leftover as scenery.

Now, an underground network of stalagmites/tites in H12 instead of some kind of facility sounds exciting!. I don't mind zortesh's idea. But there are more possibilities. This is not just a dicussion on the technical stuff on Alpine, but concepts. I know a gate is going to be placed somewhere in the map (h10-11), but why not add a bridge there connecting the mountains? Or add a crevasse underneath the h9 mountain? Think about it, there could be a thick mist down there, reducing visibility but still, a flanking route from j9 to g9 would be great. I thought about raising the L-line to K-line to be around the height of h9's hill so that if one team decides to send their entire team to the mountain for cover, they might have lances sniping from the those canyons, and is smaller hills were steepened a little in between, Interesting brawls could happen. Especially with an H9 crevasse.

And although drastic changes may never be considered, it'd at least add more peaks to Alpine Peaks. Heighten at least 3 or more hills to be as tall as mountains, say: F6, F9, i6, and l8. Then at lower altitude, try to incorporate a balanced system of flanking routes. That's way out there, I know, but at least it'd feel like travelling to BC from my last vacation. Hey, it's easy to get lost in those winding mountains roads. But, Mechs could at least have known dynamic. When you're on a mountain, you got a vantage point for a large area, and the high ground if people are try to rush your team off. When your below in a negihbouring valley between some mountains, you could run into battles that are very SRM-friendly.

With how big the game has gotten, this is just what vision I personally would have for this map. To make use of it all. The challenge here for you devs is, to ruin the balance of the map. Maybe being spawned too far apart in my extreme vision, would mean players may get lost. (Like Therma). But hey (That's why team's must stick together). I've been everywhere in Therma besides the center because of it's 'arena-like' design. Tall center, smaller side-mountains for lrm-cover, cover for sneaky flanks. Therma's personality though is that it's based around a volcano. Conserve your heat, and you'll be fine.

... but in Alpine, you won't have that concern. You just worry about if the hill will be the reason why the battle may have affected the course of victory. If the devs can nail Therma's even layout on Alpine, providing flanks scenery like a bridge, tunnel, frozen lake, crevasse, canyone, etc. then they'll have positive feedback. Unlike now, some players are bored. I just try to stay out of chat and play intensely and competitively as always. Just silence the pre-set "AW! MOUNT.MORDOR FROZE OVER AGAIN!" complaining please.

Keep up the persistent work, PGI.

[Tarogato]

I think the easiest fix for Alpine is to add spawn variants. I've talked about this in a lot of threads, so let's make some visuals this time. Here goes:

Here's what Alpine Assault looks like now:

---

Here, in order, Alt A, Alt B, and Alt C configurations:

---

We already know what the current Conquest points look like now, so I won't bother.
Here are the Alpine Conquest Alt A, Alt B, and Alt C configurations:

---

So the idea is simple: whenever you get Alpine, it'll randomly choose between the four variants. Hey, variety! Now we get to use more parts of the map! Now we get to use more tactics!

How about it? Spawn variants!

[Zephonarch II]

I've updated the map to show what I meant in the description. I just wonder why PGI didn't discuss overhauling old maps last townhall meeting. I know it was primarily based on CW, but i don't think oldm maps were discussed. Just the new gorge map. And chat seemed to be snubbed for after the CW performance fixes next year.

As you can see the new map shows more pathways in southside hopefully to generate traffic, new underground passages near the Main mountain to again divert more battles away from the advancing to the top of the mountain, bridges, new mountains, some clearing, more base locations, and some more cliff ridge vantage points.

Edited by Zephonarch II, 21 December 2014 - 12:34 PM.

[Scromboid]

BTW, I completely agree here. I don't get why we spawn in the same place every time on every map.

[Helaton]

The other problem with Alpines is that there is little area for CQC (< 500m). If you are a brawler, most of the time, you'll be cursing your luck because of the constant exposure en route to the enemy. There aren't many paths that can offer cover to be developed into defensive lines (besides the mountain ridge). There is just too much overwatch from highground that cover is ineffective for anything that is a medium mech or larger. This makes LRM/Snipers highly effective on the map.

Without changing the map too dramatically, it could use some:

1. Frozen forests. Trees large enough to provide cover in areas.
2. Weather like Frozen city blizzards/flurries.

I think of Alpine like this: Slopes provide overwatch and position but are more exposed, while lower areas are forested with cover and obstructions.