25 replies to this topic

[Scratx]

So, we've all played by now in this challenge, where we're rewarded in the end with nice discounts... yet, the game is barely different.

People still go for the kills instead of capping. Even when it won't be any faster or riskier. (yes, really, I've seen it with my own eyes, idiot team finishing off last enemy 2 seconds before resource counter reaches 750 despite people calling on them NOT to do that)

So, I've come to the conclusion that players want deathmatch, but aren't willing to go play Skirmish mode in the exclusion of all others. Why, I have no flippin' idea. That mode caters to what they want, yet they instead turn every other mode into deathmatch.

Bah.

So, Russ is going to make cap points turn faster. Good, should make standing on cap points worth more. But, I doubt that'll be enough at this point.

What I think is needed is to tuning the in-game rewards so doing the PRIMARY OBJECTIVE is actually worth more than going for the 12 kills. This way, if you just want team deathmatch you go for skirmish, where you are rewarded for killing everybody, but if you're assaulting/conquesting, you're rewarded more for actually assaulting/conquesting.

For example, let's take assault... an example here. Values would be obviously tunable, it's mainly about the idea here.

Cap Win bonus : +200 XP, +15000 CB
Defeated Enemy bonus : +50 XP, +3000 CB (this is awarded for EVERY ENEMY MECH STILL ALIVE)
Cap Participant bonus : +50 XP, +10000 CB (awarded to everyone that stood in the cap and got at least a tick or two in)

So, here we are giving a big bonus for winning by cap, another bonus for helping cap, and a "compensation" for every enemy you left alive. While killing is still worth more individually, you'd need to have at least half of their team still alive for cap win bonus not to make up for it, or just about. (and then there is the extra bonus if you were in the cap zone...)

Should earnings raise too much, the value of kills/assists themselves could be tuned a bit lower to further reward going for the primary objective.

Remember, ASSAULT is not skirmish. Taking the base is the primary goal. Shaping player behavior with the carrot to actually go for it is good.


Now, let's look at Conquest...

Conquest Resource Win bonus : +200 XP, +37500 CB
Conquest Resource Loss bonus : +50 XP, +X CB ( X being however many CB they got from resources during the match)
Cap Participant bonus : +50 XP, +2500 CB ( awarded PER cap zone helped capping )
Defeated Enemy bonus : +50 XP, +3000 CB (this is awarded for EVERY ENEMY MECH STILL ALIVE)

So, again, we have bonuses for letting the resource counter tick all the way up, and the bonus is for BOTH sides. Basically, you get 2x the resources' worth. You also get awards for helping cap, and for every enemy left alive. Should earnings raise too much, adjust per kill award accordingly. The idea is to have people actually play for the goals. And yes, faster cap time is essential here, we want a fluid battlefield.


See the general idea? While my suggested values are just that, I think the gist of the idea is worth looking into.


Discuss!

[Elizander]

Doing the objective doesn't reward as much as killing. Killing is always the primary objective.

Now if they make capping artificially boost the reward to make it similar to killing everything then things might be different.

[Scratx]

Elizander, on 20 October 2014 - 07:59 AM, said:

Doing the objective doesn't reward as much as killing. Killing is always the primary objective.

Now if they make capping artificially boost the reward to make it similar to killing everything then things might be different.

Umm, I'm wondering if you actually read my post.

Because that's pretty much what I am suggesting : Reward accomplishing the objective enough to be worth going for the objective and not kill everybody...

[BARBAR0SSA]

I have a feeling this will all be old news when Dropship mode is in.

Look forward to that big time, base assault with the possibility of leading in to proper urban maps. Crimson has a decent start but the buildings are so...off and too scaled down. Along with narrow, but having something where lights can flank and run around spotting, LRMs are useless would be amazing.

[Mr Beefy]

Elizander, on 20 October 2014 - 07:59 AM, said:

Doing the objective doesn't reward as much as killing. Killing is always the primary objective.

Now if they make capping artificially boost the reward to make it similar to killing everything then things might be different.

In your mind and play style I guess that is what you want to see..... according to the list of Primary and Secondary objectives for two of match modes that PGI put forth for us to play, you are simply wrong.

[Mr Beefy]

shad0w4life, on 20 October 2014 - 08:05 AM, said:

I have a feeling this will all be old news when Dropship mode is in.

Look forward to that big time, base assault with the possibility of leading in to proper urban maps. Crimson has a decent start but the buildings are so...off and too scaled down. Along with narrow, but having something where lights can flank and run around spotting, LRMs are useless would be amazing.

This will never be old news if large parts of the player base continue to ensure that this game is only a "death match" even when they truly would get more rewards from completing the listed primary objective of the given match mode, ya know, instead of the fantasy made up one that they believe to be primary.

[Scratx]

Mr Beefy, on 20 October 2014 - 08:10 AM, said:

This will never be old news if large parts of the player base continue to ensure that this game is only a "death match" even when they truly would get more rewards from completing the listed primary objective of the given match mode, ya know, instead of the fantasy made up one that they believe to be primary.

Yep. Especially dumbfounding when there is Skirmish mode for the "I wanna Team Deathmatch only!" crowd.

[Killstorm999999]

Scratx, on 20 October 2014 - 07:56 AM, said:

People still go for the kills instead of capping. Even when it won't be any faster or riskier. (yes, really, I've seen it with my own eyes, idiot team finishing off last enemy 2 seconds before resource counter reaches 750 despite people calling on them NOT to do that)

Having to tell your team to not kill the enemy so you can accomplish the objective is counter intuitive and insane, so I don't think you can fault people for going for the kills. I think the C Bills you earn, and the increased K/D ratio, are far more valuable to people then contributing 10 points. This was the big flaw with the Primary Object challenge.

Now what if the Primary Objective was worth 100,000 C Bills? I think people would go for it a lot more, but then we will still run in the awkward game play scenario where you should prefer to not kill the last crippled enemy mech, which makes absolutely no sense.

Edited by Deltron Zero, 20 October 2014 - 09:24 AM.

[EgoSlayer]

Scratx, on 20 October 2014 - 07:56 AM, said:

So, I've come to the conclusion that players want deathmatch, but aren't willing to go play Skirmish mode in the exclusion of all others. Why, I have no flippin' idea. That mode caters to what they want, yet they instead turn every other mode into deathmatch.

I think the answer to this part is because in skirmish there is only the full match timer or kill everyone. Assault and conquest both have alternative win conditions, although most appear to view these as secondary.

In Skirmish there isn't any way to end a "hide and seek" match aside from killing the last person or running the full match timer. In most cases neither is fun, especially if the last one is a light that can outrun everyone and/or get to locations that you can't and shuts down.

[Killstorm999999]

For me, the potential kill assists, spotting assists, kills, and component destruction is far, far more valuable then capturing the base. Perhaps if you were victorious by base capture, you were guaranteed a minimum of 100,000 C Bills, that might help. If I am going to forgo kill assists and kills, I need something to take their place.

[gregsolidus]

This assumes you can make it pass the enemy team without killing them all inadvertently.

Edited by gregsolidus, 20 October 2014 - 09:32 AM.

[AlmightyAeng]

Points accrued during the current challenge directly correlate to the sale price of mechs.

What do you do at a sale? Buy stuff.

What do you need to buy mechs? C-Bills.

What gets you more C-Bills? Killing/Assisting/Component destruction.

It's still every man out for himself, grinding the c-bills to take advantage of 45% off of Doomcrows. You'll always have at least a couple guys that hunger for that last kill, or that extra C-Bill.

That's why you aren't seeing capping.

/thread

Edited by Ghost Badger, 20 October 2014 - 09:31 AM.

[Zoid]

It doesn't need to be a lot more rewarding, it just needs to be easier. I've been in a number of games where my team has rushed the enemy base with our entire team and we still didn't win by capping it, we won by killing them all. Same thing for conquest, you can go for caps all you want, but even holding 3 nodes from very early on is still not likely going to win you the game faster than just killing everybody.

[Mr Beefy]

Scratx, on 20 October 2014 - 08:58 AM, said:

Yep. Especially dumbfounding when there is Skirmish mode for the "I wanna Team Deathmatch only!" crowd.

Dumbfounding??? I don't know, it seems to be going beyond dumbfounding and just pure run this game into the ground until there is nothing left, and then blame PGI for it. Trolling, being a selfish tool maybe.... hard to say, but its not team work that is for sure, and while that might be expected in a pug match to a certain degree, if you go out of your way to flop a primary objective goal for shits and giggles you are a negative to your team, doesn't matter what your K/D ratio, W/L ratio or how much damage you just put down on the enemy team.

Should be interesting when CW roles in, PGI could do some interesting things to force these type of players to play as a team, and focus on the primary objectives set forth in a given raid of a planet, or make them suffer by gaining nothing. If they make it things interesting enough, could end up being a full metal jacket type beat down within the faction they are on, if they can't catch on to team play and primary objectives.

[Mr Beefy]

EgoSlayer, on 20 October 2014 - 09:20 AM, said:

I think the answer to this part is because in skirmish there is only the full match timer or kill everyone. Assault and conquest both have alternative win conditions, although most appear to view these as secondary.

In Skirmish there isn't any way to end a "hide and seek" match aside from killing the last person or running the full match timer. In most cases neither is fun, especially if the last one is a light that can outrun everyone and/or get to locations that you can't and shuts down.

Oh so you mean that they are playing game modes they really have no intention to try for the primary objective for their own selfish reasons? Hmmm that is a big shocker. I wonder how many that shed so many tears about their choice being taken with the MM improvement now have added conquest to their boxes since Russ listened and up the rewards but have no intention of playing it any other way than a death match.

[Scratx]

I'm seeing a trend here. I think people are focusing more on the first three paragraphs or so (which are mostly background) than looking and discussing my actual suggestion/the actual topic.

Or maybe that's just my impression, but the topic is about how we can tune the ingame rewards to get people to play for the objectives and not simply do their typical team deathmatch over and over regardless of game mode.

[Mr Beefy]

Scratx, on 20 October 2014 - 10:25 AM, said:

I'm seeing a trend here. I think people are focusing more on the first three paragraphs or so (which are mostly background) than looking and discussing my actual suggestion/the actual topic.

Or maybe that's just my impression, but the topic is about how we can tune the ingame rewards to get people to play for the objectives and not simply do their typical team deathmatch over and over regardless of game mode.

I like all of your Ideas you have to help encourage this, Hopefully PGI is coming up with some very creative ways to give more incentive for players to play the game mode the way its meant to be played, primary objectives first, then secondary if it doesn't affect your team from the first or vise versa.

I am sorry if I have went off topic in any of my responses, It just seems in my own topic I started, many wanna give every reason under the sun to justify why they feel they can drop any mode, and not try to follow the main objective for that game mode. This worries me, because no matter what PGI does it seems, short of giving away gold mechs I guess...(bit extreme) i know, it seems many don't care, they will make it a death match of it regardless.

[KhanCipher]

Excuse me while i be "that guy"...

Objectives and No Respawns just simply don't mix very well. Now objectives and no respawn can mix well, but it usually requires the game mode to be multiple rounds for it to work in the end.

[AlmightyAeng]

Scratx, on 20 October 2014 - 10:25 AM, said:

I'm seeing a trend here. I think people are focusing more on the first three paragraphs or so (which are mostly background) than looking and discussing my actual suggestion/the actual topic.

Or maybe that's just my impression, but the topic is about how we can tune the ingame rewards to get people to play for the objectives and not simply do their typical team deathmatch over and over regardless of game mode.

Come to think of it...capping USED to be worth more C-Bills...and when it was worth more you saw full 8-mans drop in lights and cap-rush...

But now with 3/3/3/3...you can't DO that...

So why DOESN'T PGI increase the rewards for capping again?

I'm in favor.

[Mr Beefy]

Ghost Badger, on 20 October 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:

Come to think of it...capping USED to be worth more C-Bills...and when it was worth more you saw full 8-mans drop in lights and cap-rush...

But now with 3/3/3/3...you can't DO that...

So why DOESN'T PGI increase the rewards for capping again?

I'm in favor.

Didn't they just do that? 37,500 in c-bills for conquest?