33 replies to this topic

[Shifty McSwift]

Trissila, on 23 October 2017 - 09:03 PM, said:

It increases tracking strength (how well the missiles follow the target, I.E. number of hits) AND reduces spread (how tightly-grouped the missiles are, I.E. how many hit the same component instead of spreading the hits around the 'mech).

They nerfed the spread-reducing property of it, but it's still there. And as far as LRMs are concerned, less spread is always better. Always.

Artemis' usefulness for SRMs is now dubious, but in the neverending quest to make your LRMs suck less and be less of a liability for your team, ANY spread reduction is good spread reduction. Artemis + TAG on big launchers puts in some work.

A flat 25% spread reduction (which is what it is now after the nerf, lost 9% from 34%) on say a set of 4 SRM6 is definitely worth it IMO, but I guess it depends, just like it did previously, on what mech and loadout.

[Vellron2005]

no1337, on 05 December 2014 - 04:34 PM, said:

Hu guys,

after 100 patches and changes, is it still worth it to use artemis on 3x lrm20 launchers for mostly indirect fire or better 1x lrm5 + lrm20 without?

Wehre can I find the actual stants of artemis again?

Cheers

No1337

It is still better to use Artemis than not, but the bonuses are not what they used to be..

The problem however is the 20 degrees arc that used to be 45 degrees.. it limits indirect fire SIGNIFICANTLY. You used to be able to shoot over a building while standing pretty close to it, now you gotta back up alot more to get your missiles over it..

Its a significant nerf..

[InvictusLee]

Vellron2005, on 23 October 2017 - 11:22 PM, said:

It is still better to use Artemis than not, but the bonuses are not what they used to be..

The problem however is the 20 degrees arc that used to be 45 degrees.. it limits indirect fire SIGNIFICANTLY. You used to be able to shoot over a building while standing pretty close to it, now you gotta back up alot more to get your missiles over it..

Its a significant nerf..

Its annoying as all hell is what it is.
I get people bitching at me for backing up when I'm just trying to land shot using cover.

[Vellron2005]

November11th, on 24 October 2017 - 11:26 PM, said:

Its annoying as all hell is what it is.
I get people bitching at me for backing up when I'm just trying to land shot using cover.

I know, it's ridiculous, how much harder LRMing is now.. and why? Cose' of somebody's whim..

Another needless nerf..

[Shade4x]

no1337, on 05 December 2014 - 04:34 PM, said:

Hu guys,

after 100 patches and changes, is it still worth it to use artemis on 3x lrm20 launchers for mostly indirect fire or better 1x lrm5 + lrm20 without?

Wehre can I find the actual stants of artemis again?

Cheers

No1337

Like others said, it gives faster lock-on and tighter spread, HOWEVER only if you are in Line of sight of the Mech. It favors certain play styles, but it suffers a few serious drawbacks that are not to obvious.

First, in order for Artemis to even work, you have to learn to LRM properly. That requires being within 200 or closer from max range, have line of sight, and target medium to slow mech's only (anything 80 kph usually out run the majority of missiles). Now the real problem with artemis is when you fire at that atlas, and the atlas starts moving back, even if the missiles are all aiming for the same component, they still end up spreading all over the front. You can use this same thing to back mech's charging at you. So really any constant movement or a quick 180 while they are hitting will still end up spreading almost all of the artemis damage.

so your probly asking "if it sucks, why use it". Well, first, if you shoot at a distance, then aquire lock so they do not have a chance to respond (and there not moving fast), or those times your firing on a mech that gets caught on something, you can often finish them off in 2 salvo's with an LRM 30+. That being said, i only really use it on either a single LRM 15-20 launcher, or an inner sphere LRM 40+. Clan missiles spread way to much on movement and IS missiles hit at once, and are not hurt as much by the enemy moving. Typically speaking though, you want LRM 5's or 10's for spread. For instance 4 LRM 5's actually has less spread then an LRM 20. 4 LRM 20's has less spread then 2 LRM 20's with artemis (someone did a splat sheet a long time ago to prove this, but it's also easy enough to test in Academy.

So with that, to use artemis for me, it would require the mech to have either a single LRM 15-20 (1 ton is worth the spread) or an IS mech with atleast 3 LRM 15-20's. Mainly because a mech moving forward or backwards, or breaking LOS for a second, etc it basicly makes artemis worthless. So to justify the extra tonnage, you would really have to look for those oppertunity's. Artemis will always be better then non artemis. That being said, is it worth 4 tons on a 4x LRM 10

hope that helps

[mogs01gt]

Vellron2005, on 23 October 2017 - 11:22 PM, said:

It is still better to use Artemis than not, but the bonuses are not what they used to be..
The problem however is the 20 degrees arc that used to be 45 degrees.. it limits indirect fire SIGNIFICANTLY. You used to be able to shoot over a building while standing pretty close to it, now you gotta back up alot more to get your missiles over it..
Its a significant nerf..

Wait what??? When did that happen? I noticed that in my Maddog the other day. The pathing was horrible.

[Paigan]

deadmedo, on 05 December 2014 - 04:41 PM, said:

For lrm20 and lrm15 artemis is a must. For lrm 5 and 10 its not so important although it is nice to have it if you have space

I always love those "is a must" statements.
Do you even know what artemis does?
It reduces the lock time but ONLY if you have direct line of sight.
Nothing else.

That means if you don't plan on using LRMs primarily as a direct fire weapon like it was something like an AC2 or so AND your tactic requires you to absolutely lock the target as fast as possible, then artemis brings you moreless NOTHING.

On LRM5, it's even more mor*nic because for 4,5,6 LRM5, you have to invest 4,5,6 tons of artemis.
Everyone screams that a TC6 is never worth it, but equipping 6 tons of mostly useless artemis is fine all of a sudden?

Oh, and, fun fact: TCs reduce the targetting time and that ALWAYS, not just with line of sight.
So if you want Artemis, better take TCs.

TL;DR: as long as you don't have a very specific direct fire LRM playstyle, Artemis is utter crap.

[Koniving]

Shifty McSwift, on 23 October 2017 - 08:43 PM, said:

Yeah that's what I thought, it doesn't directly decrease spread, rather it alters the flight path in a way that makes the missiles hit more effectively, which is basically spread but slightly better?

One thing to remember is that was written in 2014.


Back then...



Missiles were very different.

Now it pretty much just decreases spread.
Notice missiles aren't actually cool looking anymore.


Likewise, watch what SRMs did back then, particularly the one time I miss (and as such the convergence didn't change yet.)

Missiles were pretty cool back then. And as such tightening spread wasn't really something that could be done, but altering their flight patterns to be more effective was. SRMs under Artemis would spread out, actually, and then sandwich at the target distance from every angle. This way if the enemy tried to get closer, they'd be hit just about everywhere (but also doing the opposite of the intended.)

In late 2014 they made the 'improvement to flight paths'.... which made them visually suck.

Edited by Koniving, 25 October 2017 - 05:48 AM.

[The Amazing Atomic Spaniel]

Paigan, on 25 October 2017 - 05:37 AM, said:

I always love those "is a must" statements.
Do you even know what artemis does?
It reduces the lock time but ONLY if you have direct line of sight.

Nothing else.

I think it also reduces the missile spread.

From the last patch notes:

Artemis Upgrade

• The Spread Bonus received from the Artemis Upgrade has been reduced.

Artemis Spread Design Notes: Post Skill Tree, the performance gulf between Artemis and non-Artemis based Missile systems has crossed a line; we now feel we need to reign in the inherent power of the Artemis system. With Artemis missiles being able to stack both the Artemis bonus and the Skill Tree bonuses, Artemis systems were too capable of reliably placing a majority of their total volley damage on a single Component. We are therefore reducing the bonus by an overall small amount to give Artemis systems fully augmented by the Spread Nodes a new maximum spread more equal to the previous inherent bonuses prior to the release of the Skill Tree.

Vellron2005, on 23 October 2017 - 11:22 PM, said:

It is still better to use Artemis than not, but the bonuses are not what they used to be..

The problem however is the 20 degrees arc that used to be 45 degrees.. it limits indirect fire SIGNIFICANTLY. You used to be able to shoot over a building while standing pretty close to it, now you gotta back up alot more to get your missiles over it..

Its a significant nerf..

I don't think they changed the firing angle at all, only the angle you must not exceed between the reticle and target if you are to hold lock.

Again, from the patch notes:

Missile Lock

• The maximum angle at which Missile Lock can be retained after the reticle has drifted from the locked opponent has been reduced. Weapon Lock will now be lost at 25 degrees, instead of the previous 45 degree value.

[Karl Streiger]

Koniving, on 25 October 2017 - 05:46 AM, said:

One thing to remember is that was written in 2014.


Back then...



Missiles were very different.

Now it pretty much just decreases spread.
Notice missiles aren't actually cool looking anymore.


Likewise, watch what SRMs did back then, particularly the one time I miss (and as such the convergence didn't change yet.)

Missiles were pretty cool back then. And as such tightening spread wasn't really something that could be done, but altering their flight patterns to be more effective was. SRMs under Artemis would spread out, actually, and then sandwich at the target distance from every angle. This way if the enemy tried to get closer, they'd be hit just about everywhere (but also doing the opposite of the intended.)

In late 2014 they made the 'improvement to flight paths'.... which made them visually suck.

hate you man - look how much this Atlas was able to take without that sucking ballerina twisting that is everywhere now and look so ridiculous.

[Shifty McSwift]

Koniving, on 25 October 2017 - 05:46 AM, said:

One thing to remember is that was written in 2014.


Back then...



Missiles were very different.

Now it pretty much just decreases spread.
Notice missiles aren't actually cool looking anymore.


Likewise, watch what SRMs did back then, particularly the one time I miss (and as such the convergence didn't change yet.)

Missiles were pretty cool back then. And as such tightening spread wasn't really something that could be done, but altering their flight patterns to be more effective was. SRMs under Artemis would spread out, actually, and then sandwich at the target distance from every angle. This way if the enemy tried to get closer, they'd be hit just about everywhere (but also doing the opposite of the intended.)

In late 2014 they made the 'improvement to flight paths'.... which made them visually suck.

LoL, that is a very good point, I do usually check timestamps but this topic seemed so fresh heh I was tricked I say.

With the missiles I guess it is an aesthetics thing, but surely there's a better demo video for the lrms now video too (the first video was a good demo of before), that second video had a guy getting knocked down so it must be old, and you barely see the missiles, or from what I saw they just looked a bit less like supermario fireballs

Nevermind you used that video to compare SRMs, I see, I'll need to watch some comparisons of the now ones in game I guess.

Edited by Shifty McSwift, 26 October 2017 - 08:58 AM.

[Lykaon]

Vellron2005, on 25 October 2017 - 12:21 AM, said:

I know, it's ridiculous, how much harder LRMing is now.. and why? Cose' of somebody's whim..

Another needless nerf..

Why? well I have a "theory" on this.

A while back we had faction warfare scouting added in. In this mode we get 4 v 4 with a weight cap of 55 tons on the mechs in use.

The probelm with this was, the Stormcrow is 55 tons fast and can boat a weapon system that can utterly erase a light mech with minimal effort.

Streak SRMs...and the Stormcrow can boat a great deal of them.

The resulting "skill" crows trigger rivers of tears resulting in PGI reducing clan drop weight to 50 tons disallowing the Stormcrow from scouting.

FIXED!

Later we get the Huntsman but since the Huntsman is slower it never triggered the same level of WTF nerf IT! on the forums.

All was well.

And then...

Arctic Wolf...40 tons fast and very capable of streak boating!

Result? Nerf to lock on arc range to reduce the impact of "Streak" Wolf use in Scouting.

But, What if they just boat SRMs? they can actually be aimed easily with some practice if artemis is employed and the half weight clan SRMs easily leave the tonnage to fit the artemis!

Um...well nerf Artemis too!

FIXED!

[Sug]

[Brain Cancer]

zortesh, on 05 December 2014 - 06:52 PM, said:

Artemis is iffy on usefulness, if you have 3+ launchers, or only fire indirectly its basically a horrible waste.

It's been years, but after this got necroed...

If all you do is fire LRMs indirectly, you're a horrible waste as far as a missile lobber goes.

Get your own locks whenever possible. Maximize your missile effectiveness, minimize your spread.

Edited by Brain Cancer, 02 November 2017 - 08:59 PM.