12 replies to this topic

[Savage Sweets]

I've searched quite a bit on Endo-Steel Structure and Critical Slots, but none of the articles, wiki pages, or threads answer my question:

How does an Endo-Steel Structure's usage of Critical Slots on a mech affect it (aside from weight loss)?

Does it make it more susceptible to critical hits since the Endo-Steel uses Critical Slots?

Does it simply make your mech lighter without any penalties to your overall defense?


To the constructive & clear replies, thank you for time and cooperation.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

First off, you're in the best place for constructive advice and info!

So the main trade off made by using Endo is saving weight by spending Crit Slots.

Endo takes 14 Crit Slots in exchange for halving your Internal Structure Weight. So an Atlas gains like five tons with ES.


AFAIK, Endo does not impact Critical Hits at all. So If you have a mech such as Centurion with no hardpoints in a section like an arm than there is nothing to Crit in that section.

And if you want to pad Equipment against Critical Hits, than the more you stuff into a section reduces the percent for crit hits against the equipment stored there.

Hope the info helps, and feel free to ask any follow-up questions, we have a great community around here!

Edited by Praetor Knight, 30 November 2014 - 12:25 AM.

[Satan n stuff]

Savage Sweets, on 30 November 2014 - 12:11 AM, said:

I've searched quite a bit on Endo-Steel Structure and Critical Slots, but none of the articles, wiki pages, or threads answer my question:

How does an Endo-Steel Structure's usage of Critical Slots on a mech affect it (aside from weight loss)?

Does it make it more susceptible to critical hits since the Endo-Steel uses Critical Slots?

Does it simply make your mech lighter without any penalties to your overall defense?


To the constructive & clear replies, thank you for time and cooperation.

Endo steel and ferro fibrous armor reduce the weight of internals ( from 10% of a mech's max tonnage to 5% ) and armor ( from 1 ton per 32 points to 1 ton per 36 points ) respectively and they each take up 14 critical slots on Inner Sphere mechs and 7 on Clan mechs.
Those are the only effects they have, the only trade off for the weight savings is a reduction in available space for equipment.
Critical hits only land on equipment, both fixed and removable. Empty locations cannot be hit and internal and armor locations are treated as empty. Mechanically, the game probably doesn't even attempt to hit these locations as it would otherwise have to reroll and possibly get stuck in a loop.

Edited by Satan n stuff, 30 November 2014 - 03:43 AM.

[Molossian Dog]

Generally speaking:

When it comes to Inner Sphere Mechs you always want Endo-Steel. The only exception are a handful of assault Mechs (especially energy weapon heavy ones) that already have alot of tonnage and need the crit slots to fit in all the weapons and !heat sinks!.

Ferro-Fibrous gives only a small weight saving. When you have practically finished your build, but still have 14-16 crit slots left, go for it. Mostly it is only useful for the lighter Mechs.

Rule of thumb: Endo first. Maaayybe FF second.

They give no bonus and apply no disadvantage: They just save weight. And cost precious C-Bills.

Edited by Molossian Dog, 30 November 2014 - 06:49 AM.

[Durant Carlyle]

The critical slots used by Endo Steel internal structure and Ferro-Fibrous armor are ignored by the critical hit system. There are no penalties to defense when using ES or FF.

The penalty of the critical slot usage is you have less room to fit equipment, weapons, and ammunition. That's it.

[Koniving]

In MWO, Endo Steel (and Ferro) slots consume space.

For standard Battlemechs, these are dynamic and can shift around until you run out of available slots.
For Omnimechs, these are fixed and will not move.

In either case, if a critical hit touches an endo/ferro slot, it will 're-roll' to find somewhere else to land just as it will if it lands on an empty slot. They will not buff you or increase your susceptibility.

For Battletech/Megamek (the board/digital board game that this is very loosely based on)
Pretty much the same as above, though you have to manually shift the slots around on Battlemechs and are not allowed to move the slots on Omnimechs. Note that the 're-rolls' would only occur if the rule is activated, otherwise slots behave as if they are empty when it comes to critical hits.

For Battletech fluff/books/lore...
The use of Endo Steel or Ferro Fibrous armor increases the physical size of your mech. Lighter but bulkier materials. Ferro is clearly preferable because its physical bulk increase to the mech's size is very minor. (usually a couple of decimal digits to height). Endo Steel on the other hand can make a 20 ton mech almost as large or slightly larger than a 25 ton mech. (In other words Endo Steel can add almost to slightly over 1 meter in total girth).
Combining both would make the mech considerably larger, which is why it is extremely rare to see. The increase to your mech's volume would make it a very easy target.

Edited by Koniving, 02 December 2014 - 02:26 PM.

[SnagaDance]

Koniving, on 01 December 2014 - 05:33 AM, said:

For Battletech fluff/books/lore...
The use of Endo Steel or Ferro Fibrous armor increases the physical size of your mech. Lighter but bulkier materials. Ferro is clearly preferable because its physical bulk increase to the mech's size is very minor. (usually a couple of decimal digits to height). Endo Steel on the other hand can make a 20 ton mech slightly larger than a 25 ton mech (Clans) or a 20 ton mech as large as a 30 ton mech (IS). (In other words Endo Steel can add almost to over 1 meter in actual height/bulk/etc).
Combining both would make the mech considerably larger, which is why it is extremely rare to see. The increase to your mech's volume would make it a very easy target.

This bit. Really?? I've never read the explanation like this in any BattleTech resource I own. I always assumed that the extra bulkiness was 'turned inwards' as it were, thus the decrease in actual space to put weapons and equipment. If the mech would be actually bigger then the loss of internal space doesn't make as much sense anymore 9at least for me).

[Koniving]

SnagaDance, on 01 December 2014 - 05:44 AM, said:

This bit. Really?? I've never read the explanation like this in any BattleTech resource I own. I always assumed that the extra bulkiness was 'turned inwards' as it were, thus the decrease in actual space to put weapons and equipment. If the mech would be actually bigger then the loss of internal space doesn't make as much sense anymore 9at least for me).

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Chassis
Bulkiness is fervently mentioned, and yes it consumes space inside the mechs, but since when has bulkier materials been limited to exclusively the inside of a machine?
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Endo_Steel

For example the description provided in TRO 3050 Upgrade about the Atlas K, and the description provided about Atlases in general on Sarna, state that the models before the K did not have the internal space to mount a proper LRM-20, so instead it has a 5 tube hip-mounted launcher that rapidly reloads. Yet you can add endo steel to the mech; where does the bulk go? If it can't go in, it must go out.

In general when something gets bulkier it is true that the depth increases, but when you increase mass it must go somewhere. There is a limit to how far inward it can go.

In fact, structure modifications do go 'outward', as the skeleton is as inward as it gets. This consumes space between the structure and the armor. Any armor as a result gets stretched a little more thinly from a realistic standpoint, or has gaps. The Ferro armor goes both inward and outward (which is why those mechs are 'smaller' in girth).

A vertical mech gets bulkier/taller, a non-vertical mech gets bulkier. In general you might notice that in BT art, mechs with less armor are skinnier (Centurion versus Hunchback for example). This is because, quite simply, less armor. The weight similarities instead go into the Centurion being taller while the Hunchback is more squat.

Though there are some artistic fallacies in how they are depicted, compare the sizes of these mechs.
Almost all of them have ferro.
The largest ones for their tonnage also have endo. There's also a reuse of art assets here.

The description is in every resource you have. It is just generally assumed that it only goes inward, because the video games have never had the technology or the developer inclination to take what is written for its literal value. Also standard BT rules doesn't encompass it (though Design Quirks can), because the campaign penalties of repair, maintenance, etc. is deemed more than enough punishment.

However, check the story books for a mech that gets refit with endo steel. There's a reason the Summoner 2 is larger than the Summoner.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Now wouldn't it be awesome if they eventually managed to add that into the game - so putting endo/ferro on your mech actually made it physically bigger in the game as well.

(here is hoping for "someday")

[Nothing Whatsoever]

I've often wondered about how that worked with the upgrades of using Endo and Ferro, and had a hard time trying to visualize how those would alter a mech's volume based on their descriptions, so it certainly makes sense that mechs do get bigger in various ways when upgraded (as with the Summoner example).

I would be interested in seeing mechs get bigger as a result of the upgrades in MWO, I'm sure it would bring more variety, and give a much better drawback than simply their current costs (I wouldn't mind R&R to return in an improved form also).

For example, I can see the current sized Atlas be one using Endo to mount a STD 350 engine (that's like 17 M right?), while one that adds Ferro instead would be smaller and might get to use a 325, and one that uses Standard Armor and Structure being smallest of the options (It could be it's correct size or close to it around ~15 M I guess).

---

As another aside, it would also make sense to have different armor caps based on stock mech profiles and stock armor values, since increasing armor to our current max values is also adding weight with that additional armor than what was found originally on stock builds, basically creating a brand new mech along with their tweaked loadouts.

---

Typing these ideas out makes me wonder how dynamic the Cryengine could be, and if it could even handle such variety.

I also imagine that it'll be too much work for the devs, but at least fun to think about!

[Durant Carlyle]

The 'Mechs wouldn't get any smaller or larger height-wise when adding Endo Steel internal structure and/or Ferro-Fibrous armor.

They would get bulkier, like a bodybuilder versus a normal athlete.

This is also one of the reasons that there aren't any field upgrades for Endo Steel internal structure or Ferro-Fibrous armor. It takes weeks/months of re-design and manufacture to build the new components and make everything fit.

And no, they shouldn't put a meaningless addition like this into the game. There are much more important things to be working on. We've already got weapon visualizations (and look at the problems they have with those) ... be happy with that.

[JC Daxion]

Shar Wolf, on 01 December 2014 - 01:12 PM, said:

Now wouldn't it be awesome if they eventually managed to add that into the game - so putting endo/ferro on your mech actually made it physically bigger in the game as well.

(here is hoping for "someday")

that would be something to see... people might have to rethink everything!

[Koniving]

Edit: had an 'MWO' where a 'BT' should be.

Praetor Knight, on 01 December 2014 - 11:04 PM, said:

I've often wondered about how that worked with the upgrades of using Endo and Ferro, and had a hard time trying to visualize how those would alter a mech's volume based on their descriptions, so it certainly makes sense that mechs do get bigger in various ways when upgraded (as with the Summoner example).

I would be interested in seeing mechs get bigger as a result of the upgrades in MWO, I'm sure it would bring more variety, and give a much better drawback than simply their current costs (I wouldn't mind R&R to return in an improved form also).

The Atlas in MWO is 17.? meters.
(The one in Battletech is 13.6 meters; exactly the height of a Hunchback in MWO; there's a reason the BT Atlas's head is so oversized; a Hunchback in BT is about the size of an MWO Commando; a BT Commando is almost exactly the same height as a BT Hunchback, but much skinnier; a BT Raven is taller than a Hunchback, it sort of goes on and on).

I sort of exaggerated the size increases to fit with MWO's already exaggerated mech sizes. The actual size increases for endo steel is typically between 0.2 and 0.5 meters depending on the weight of the body structure and the shape of said structure, with a reduction from the standard being made for mechs with 'little' space consumed (a Dragon for example has a lot of free space in the torso, so its side torsos would not increase much).

Ferro is between 0.05 and substantially more depending on the tonnage of armor and the shape of the mech. For instance a mech 55 ton mech with 4.5 tons of armor who increases his armor would increase his physical bulk regardless. Since that can go up to 11.5 tons (12 tons by technicality on the rules), that would be a huge increase in bulk. Do this with ferro and it's an even bigger one.

The difference is that endo steel increases the bulk of the entire machine's internal skeleton. If the machine doesn't have much space to get 'thicker', it therefore will get taller and technically is more likely to get taller than with Ferro.

Ferro, or any armor upgrade, is more localized. Yes you replace all the armor (or some, provided 'Patchwork' rules), but if you have an identical amount of armor you have an even amount of 'bulk' added on gracefully. It's when you shift the armor around that it gets 'odd'. What happens when you add armor to something? It gets thicker, because more armor. Lets say your legs start with X armor, but you want more. Legs get thicker, thicker, thicker, ZOMG Thunder Thighs! Not enough armor on that CT? Slap some more.. Wait, did you just give that Commando a Dragon belly?

Of course, attaching more armor requires more and stronger ways to secure that armor to the frame, reducing the space between the skeleton and the armor to attach things to. Thus the 'expands inward' impression many people get.

So it gets pretty interesting to try and visualize this. From a theoretical standpoint, a stock Raven 3-L might have bulk due to ferro armor and 4.5 tons of it, but a stock Raven 4x would be a lot bulkier even with standard armor, because 7 tons of it. Note that even Sarna describes the Raven 4X as a brawling Raven, and that in the novels a Raven 3-L tries to avoid fights, but a Raven 4X will jumpjet in, kick someone in the cockpit, and then start hosing down a nearby enemy while taking punches.

Might also note that Shadowhawks tend to fight at long range, but face to face, a Shadowhawk 5M terrifies the pilot of a Shadowhawk 2D2 due to its heavier armor and bulkier frame.

o.O;

Quote

For example, I can see the current sized Atlas be one using Endo to mount a STD 350 engine (that's like 17 M right?), while one that adds Ferro instead would be smaller and might get to use a 325, and one that uses Standard Armor and Structure being smallest of the options (It could be it's correct size or close to it around ~15 M I guess).

You could do it that way and in a way, the free tonnage works that way already. Though that isn't giving much incentive to not use endo in terms of engine choices.

I sort of like the options of BT. You have a fusion reactor made by Vlar. It has a 300-rating. Want to change your engine size to hold more? Nissan makes a 200-rated engine for Atlases. Need more speed? LTV makes a 400-rated engine. Except to fit that 400-rated engine, you'd have to sacrifice almost all your weapons and slap in endo steel to boot. At 52.5 tons just for the engine, was it really worth it? Don't worry, LTV makes an XL version too. But that'll be 16 million cbills more than the 400-rated standard engine. Are you sure you want to do that? No? Well then, I didn't think so.

Of course, the engines aren't compatible with other weight classes, but the prices aren't either. An XL 300 for an Atlas is 12 million more than the 300 standard engine. An XL 300 for a Commando is 1,875,000 more cbills than the 300 standard engine for a Commando.

No wonder lights and mediums were more common on the battlefield.

Quote

As another aside, it would also make sense to have different armor caps based on stock mech profiles and stock armor values, since increasing armor to our current max values is also adding weight with that additional armor than what was found originally on stock builds, basically creating a brand new mech along with their tweaked loadouts.

I've had the armor cap idea. Between me and a few other people we've proposed it a few times over, most people liked it. Of course, this idea also came with having the armor caps set per variant, where using Ferro could increase the points of armor you get but either way you're limited to a specific tonnage of armor. With quirks, however, it sort of became a moot point as survival with certain mechs having reduced armor caps is about impossible now.

Nice thing about the concept is that it kept the ratios of armor per mech even with stock values, even with both mechs maxed. So of the 65 tonners you'd choose the Thunderbolt for armor. Catapults tended to have the armor of 50 tonners and Jagermechs weren't too good on the armor. Thing is you used Jagermechs to shoot things out of the sky and Catapults for fire support. A Thunderbolt is a bonified brawler.

Same thing went with the 55 tonners and the 50 tonners.
Hunchbacks are the go to for tanking enemy fire, though a Centurion AL outclassed Hunchbacks in armor. Not so much went in favor of the other Centurions whose armor was more even with 45 tonners like Blackjacks and Vindicators.

On the 55 ton side of things, Wolverine is the go to for brawling right as its says on its page; a command mech whose armor surpasses many heavies. And at stock, it does. The Shadowhawks short of the 5M and 2H, have the armor of light mechs and are made to recon and sharp shoot. Griffins tend to be on par with 50 ton mechs but faster and best used as sharp shooters, meanwhile Kintaros are running armor platforms. Though if you took that ferro off of them (or added ferro to Griffins), you were in about the same boat.

Still, I can dream.

JC Daxion, on 06 December 2014 - 09:43 AM, said:

that would be something to see... people might have to rethink everything!

That's exactly how I feel. If increasing armor or adding end/ferro/hardened, etc. made physical changes to your mech and/or its performance (for example hardened armor reduces your ability to climb slopes as well as your overall possible speed due to lack of flexibility), then it'd be a big game changer in the risk/reward.

You'd have a reason to prefer the Summoner over the superior Summoner II. A reason to want to shy away from endo-steel laden Omnimechs. It'd also suddenly make sense why an 85 ton Warhawk (which has ferro) is virtually the same size as a Dire Wolf (which has no upgrades) when both are close but not 'that close' to the same armor levels.

Edited by Koniving, 07 December 2014 - 02:14 PM.