90 replies to this topic

[Gattsus]

My two cents for handling harassment if we ever^tmhave VOIP.


Some ideas how to handle harassment:


About toxicity in gaming communities:




Summary:


Rouken: Just add a mute button for players (bonus points if it remember which players to mute) and an option to turn the whole thing off.

Gatts: The thing is, and I fear you missed the point in their argument, that when someone clicks mute, that's a single person saying: I don't like what I hear. When statistics are used, and implemented they way they mention, it means that there is a community trying to make a point, which is quite different.

• The rules for "auto mute" are known to everyone, and that the offender understands why he is auto-muted.
  
• Auto-mute will spare others from hearing the harasser.
  
• The final and most important point, is that the harasser will know that such behaviour is not welcomed in the game and hopefully it will make the player change. I think that the last point about changing a player behaviour is the most difficult one, but if it was easy, we wouldn´t have harassers and trolls in videogames.

Joseph Mallan: I personally rate the application of said harassment, categorize it, and give helpful hints how to do it better.


Then again I'm from an older generation where most harassment was looked upon as "Smack Talk".

SirLANsalot "Smack Talk" is normal and is applied to your opponents. Whenever you make an epic kill or making it out of a 4v1 with a red CT and still take down a 5th, that is grounds to talk some smack to your opposition showing off you 1337 skills. That is fine and is good for /all chat (which is sad to see gone).

Harassment/toxicity is when someone does something bad on your team and you hound them about it over and over again. That is what the mute button is for! League of Legends.

If they add voice chat to MWO, or they put it on steam so you can use steam's voice chat, then old men everywhere will be yelling in chat when they see ultimate golden battlemasters with triple SRM2s and a single ER PPC.

Vassago Rain: That's how life works. You mute people who mic spam, and everybody else is of very little concern.

Social justice warriors like extra credits, who portray themselves as talking down to their audience from above a podium, are the ones who truly need to be muted and ignored.

MoonUnitBeta If people talking in MWO’s chat is any indication to how they’re going to talk in voice chat, you can guarantee that I’m turning it off, as with most people. I know a few people that have zero tolerance for any of the examples I’ve listed above. I don’t need lip smackers and big talkers telling me that I suck, or hearing some exasperated sigh because he died, or a spectator trying to talk me through my life problems. I’ve encountered more worse experiences with voice chat than I have good ones, and that’s just listening both in-game and 3

And what about new players? They’re already talked down in typed chat, can you image when you give the right people the power to ACTUALLY CONTROL THE NEW PLAYER THROUGH HIS EARS?! Those back seat drivers are ganna have a hay day on those poor new people, “back up! Do this! Do that! No! Yes! Kill him! Get his CT! His CT! Shoot his CT! OMG! His CT not his leg! CT!!!” ho-lee-sheet. Give me a break. No thank you. Not even once man.

Oh man lol… I hope you really don’t see barking at people how to play the game in any chat medium as CONSTRUCTIVE. You’ve seen my examples… those aren’t constructive. Sometimes, you don’t need criticism any more, and you just play how you want to play. Some games I just take flight and do w/e I want, but then I get people breathing down my neck because I’m not going to B4 to snipe that one mech that’s cored. Just leave me alone. It’s 5 vs 1 and all I have is a small laser.

Everyone plays differently. Everyone learns at a different pace.
Heckling players for not playing how YOU play is not behaviour I’m about to endorse. Sorry.

“Don’t like it? Turn it off.”
Yeah great argument. Pretty ironic if you ask me. Something that's supposed to encourage team play, suddenly becomes redudant. Don't be surprised by the amount of people that'll take you up on that.
VOIP is a niche feature at best. It's either a big success or a complete failure. You people think that it's the best feature in the world but you'll be back asking for more when it flops or doesn't completely do the job that you think it'll do.

Dimento Graven I believe that as long as in-game VOIP is implemented properly, the ability to mute individuals, opt-out, and individual user volume control, it WOULD be a good boon for the MWO gaming community as a whole. Also, for the MOST PART I believe that the players would be adult about their conduct and mic etiquette, and those that aren't, I refer you back to my 'implemented properly' statement.

Gauvan What is being called for is too complicated. Mute works. Why do we need to be able to report peoples harassment if we can just mute them and prevent the harassment from ever happening?

I would think it's because the person who acts inappropriately in voice chat is going to act inappropriately in general. I don't think a high mute count is enough in itself to give someone the boot from the game but I think it's a great red flag for PGI to take a look at a player's overall activity.

"Smack Talk" is normal and is applied to your opponents. Whenever you make an epic kill or making it out of a 4v1 with a red CT and still take down a 5th, that is grounds to talk some smack to your opposition showing off you 1337 skills. That is fine and is good for /all chat

You feel it is normal but I don't think that it is a universal. As far as I know the majority of competitive events people engage in value good sportsmanship. This should be more the case in online competitions because in online communications you lose a lot of the context of face-to-face communications. In MWO you are basically in a big room full of strangers of all ages, sexes, and nationalities. I'd suggest starting off courteous and only loosen up with people who know you well enough to understand your ribbing.

How can someone you cant see or hear say anything bother you?

Because MWO is a product with a potential audience of all ages, sexes, and nationalities. If the problem of verbally abusive players is seen as the problem of the end user, and not the community (and PGI), then you essentially are permitting a hostile and uninclusive culture to exist. I would argue that is bad for the community.

If in-game VOIP is ever implemented then use it at your own risk and/or mute people if you don't like them, it's that simple.

Pjwned We don't need special rules for delicate snowflakes.

RalphVargr One of the criteria for my "new game to play" search was solo play suitability.

I think we're going to go through a period where a lot of people will be driven off team games by what the humans can do with no social consequences. It's fun to play with friends. It's not fun to lose them, because of gamer behavior.

Talis Thunder Having played Counter Strike:GS (which has in-game VOIP) for over a year, I'd say just give me an option to turn the VOIP off. I have no interest in listening to the trash talk and the yelling from idiotic kids.

Edited by Gattsus, 28 December 2014 - 09:45 PM.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Just add a mute button for players (bonus points if it remember which players to mute) and an option to turn the whole thing off.

[Vassago Rain]

I like it when extra credits is quoted, because it's always by people who ignore the obvious, like a mute button.

You ever used voice that doesn't have a mute button? Me neither.

[SaltBeef]

Ts has mute options and block options.

[Gattsus]

Vassago Rain, on 07 December 2014 - 06:03 AM, said:

I like it when extra credits is quoted, because it's always by people who ignore the obvious, like a mute button.

You ever used voice that doesn't have a mute button? Me neither.

The thing is, and I fear you missed the point in their argument, that when someone clicks mute, that's a single person saying: I don't like what I hear. When statistics are used, and implemented they way they mention, it means that there is a community trying to make a point, which is quite different.

I would argue that the main point, in general, is how to enable community moderation of harassment, which may be is easier, cheaper and automatic. For example, although not exactly the same, the management of TKers in MWO is atrocious. You have to send an email to support, wait for their answer and you never hear from them again if you don't poke them a bit. The automation of this process, for example an in-game report button which in turn aggregates statistics about a single user, could be a more elegant and general option. Obviously, it can be abused like everything, but great powers come with big responsibility, and I hope we can reflect that we're an in general, more mature audience.

Edited by Gattsus, 07 December 2014 - 07:37 AM.

[Gattsus]

I forgot to add that, I think that their hypothesis is based in that:

• The rules for "auto mute" are known to everyone, and that the offender understands why he is auto-muted.
  
• Auto-mute will spare others from hearing the harasser.
  
• The final and most important point, is that the harasser will know that such behaviour is not welcomed in the game and hopefully it will make the player change. I think that the last point about changing a player behaviour is the most difficult one, but if it was easy, we wouldn´t have harassers and trolls in videogames.

Edited by Gattsus, 07 December 2014 - 07:44 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Quote

Voip And How To Handle Harassment.

I personally rate the application of said harassment, categorize it, and give helpful hints how to do it better.

Then again I'm from an older generation where most harassment was looked upon as "Smack Talk".

[Mudhutwarrior]

I would be careful of those who promote Ochloracy or mob rule. For some insight :Ochlocracy (Greek: ὀχλοκρατία, okhlokratía; Latin: ochlocratia) or mob rule is the rule of government by mob or a mass of people, or the intimidation of legitimate authorities. As a pejorative for majoritarianism, it is akin to the Latin phrase mobile vulgus meaning "the fickle crowd", from which the English term "mob" was originally derived in the 1680s.

Mobs are easily swayed on little or no evidence or by popular themes. Carnage comes from it everytime its applied. Our founders were aware of that and created a constitutional republic. In that individual rights trumped the rule of the mob. Of course we are very far from that now because of this trend to be pushed into mob rule. We see the results of it too if we look with open eyes.

Never trust anyone who promotes the rule of the mob for they generally will promote whatever mob they belong to in the end.

[Gattsus]

Mudhutwarrior, on 07 December 2014 - 09:51 AM, said:

I would be careful of those who promote Ochloracy or mob rule. For some insight :Ochlocracy (Greek: ὀχλοκρατία, okhlokratía; Latin: ochlocratia) or mob rule is the rule of government by mob or a mass of people, or the intimidation of legitimate authorities. As a pejorative for majoritarianism, it is akin to the Latin phrase mobile vulgus meaning "the fickle crowd", from which the English term "mob" was originally derived in the 1680s.

Mobs are easily swayed on little or no evidence or by popular themes. Carnage comes from it everytime its applied. Our founders were aware of that and created a constitutional republic. In that individual rights trumped the rule of the mob. Of course we are very far from that now because of this trend to be pushed into mob rule. We see the results of it too if we look with open eyes.

Never trust anyone who promotes the rule of the mob for they generally will promote whatever mob they belong to in the end.

Then if not by community/mob moderation, how would you enable policy against harassment.

[Joseph Mallan]

Gattsus, on 07 December 2014 - 10:20 AM, said:

Then if not by community/mob moderation, how would you enable policy against harassment.

Joseph Mallan, on 07 December 2014 - 09:19 AM, said:

I personally rate the application of said harassment, categorize it, and give helpful hints how to do it better.

Then again I'm from an older generation where most harassment was looked upon as "Smack Talk".

[Gattsus]

Joseph Mallan, on 07 December 2014 - 09:19 AM, said:

I personally rate the application of said harassment, categorize it, and give helpful hints how to do it better.

Then again I'm from an older generation where most harassment was looked upon as "Smack Talk".

Yeah, I come from a similar school. Though, I think we should enable such features that allow for the control of this behaviour. For example messages like inciting ****, promises of murder, or along these lines usually go against what most people would call reasonable and impact the enjoyment of the affected gamers, which is sad.

Joseph Mallan, on 07 December 2014 - 10:21 AM, said:

I got your point, Or was asking him, since maybe he had another idea, maybe(?)

[Joseph Mallan]

Gattsus, on 07 December 2014 - 10:24 AM, said:

Yeah, I come from a similar school. Though, I think we should enable such features that allow for the control of this behaviour. For example messages like inciting ****, promises of murder, or along these lines usually go against what most people would call reasonable and impact the enjoyment of the affected gamers, which is sad.

I usually give a free invitation to someone making comments like that Cause you know, not many of you live close enough for me to worry about, and if they do show up... I know how to deal with it.

[Brody319]

seriously, a mute button is pretty much all we need. most games have started adding it because of how useful it is.

[Andi Nagasia]

i think this being a Team Game MWO should have a Integrated in-game VOIP,
ya you could make the claim that there are other software out there that you can already use,
TeamSpeak, Vent, Axon, Steam, but if your jumping into a match its hard to link up with others,
as they may not have the same Voip software you have, so you wouldn't be able to talk with them,
i feel if Voip was integrated into MWO you would see much more tactical team play,

[Gattsus]

Joseph Mallan, on 07 December 2014 - 10:27 AM, said:

I usually give a free invitation to someone making comments like that Cause you know, not many of you live close enough for me to worry about, and if they do show up... I know how to deal with it.

Without casting doubt about your comment, I fear that not everyone has that chance. It is not a reason to accept this behaviour, because not all he members of this community "know how to deal with it", and they shouldn't.

[Gattsus]

Mudhutwarrior, on 07 December 2014 - 09:51 AM, said:

I would be careful of those who promote Ochloracy or mob rule. For some insight :Ochlocracy (Greek: ὀχλοκρατία, okhlokratía; Latin: ochlocratia) or mob rule is the rule of government by mob or a mass of people, or the intimidation of legitimate authorities. As a pejorative for majoritarianism, it is akin to the Latin phrase mobile vulgus meaning "the fickle crowd", from which the English term "mob" was originally derived in the 1680s.

Mobs are easily swayed on little or no evidence or by popular themes. Carnage comes from it everytime its applied. Our founders were aware of that and created a constitutional republic. In that individual rights trumped the rule of the mob. Of course we are very far from that now because of this trend to be pushed into mob rule. We see the results of it too if we look with open eyes.

Never trust anyone who promotes the rule of the mob for they generally will promote whatever mob they belong to in the end.

I spent time thinking about it, and I couldn't find an example of anything that generated change for good, or bad, that couldn't be classified as "mob" behaviour. Without large support, good/bad ideas just die off. Thus, I would like to ask you how you differentiate common agreement to mob behaviour? At this stage I would guess that the difference is the knowledge of the subject that the individuals of the mob posses. Therefore, in our case if it is made clear the criteria for which someone would be auto-muted (i.e. harassment) the goal of spreading the reason and motivation behind the rule would be achieved

Having said that Just to add more complexity to the question, we know that beliefs, even in groups of people of a number small as 10, overcome factual thinking (I couldn't find again the paper where I read this).


mhh

Edited by Gattsus, 08 December 2014 - 08:54 AM.

[SirLANsalot]

"Smack Talk" is normal and is applied to your opponents. Whenever you make an epic kill or making it out of a 4v1 with a red CT and still take down a 5th, that is grounds to talk some smack to your opposition showing off you 1337 skills. That is fine and is good for /all chat (which is sad to see gone).

Harassment/toxicity is when someone does something bad on your team and you hound them about it over and over again. That is what the mute button is for! League of Legends.

No one is asking for an /all chat VOIP in MWO, what is being asked for is VOIP for your team so you can at least maybe communicate with the other 11 people WHO SHOULD HAVE A MICROPHONE if they are playing a MULTIPLAYER game. However that whole issue is for another topic entirely.

[Khobai]

there should be no mute or block

and there needs to be mech crouching so you can teabag enemies

[BourbonFaucet]

I lost my respect for EC a looooong time ago.

"Let's start the trash talkers automuted"

Which would be great, but that could easily be used to silence dissent against an agenda a developer might have. *tinfoil hat*

We should just stay the course with standard muting and report options for true abuse.

Edited by Techorse, 08 December 2014 - 09:26 AM.

[Gattsus]

Khobai, on 08 December 2014 - 09:03 AM, said:

and there needs to be mech crouching so you can teabag enemies

This.

SirLANsalot, on 08 December 2014 - 09:01 AM, said:

No one is asking for an /all chat VOIP in MWO, what is being asked for is VOIP for your team

I agree.