76 replies to this topic

[CDLord HHGD]

Dropped both with and against Lowtax in the same fight last night. Both sides accorded themselves honorably and the two Lowtax on our side helped us in stomping their 8-man on the other. I see no reason for concern here.

[KuroNyra]

R Razor, on 07 December 2014 - 06:41 PM, said:

But the game was designed as a TEAM game using certain match making rules.

You sur have your own meaning for "TEAM" and there Rules. And all that it imply, assault mech, support mech, harasser, etc etc.
I still have your [Complaints] about the LRMs in mind. Why am I not surprised?

Edited by John Wolf, 10 December 2014 - 06:57 AM.
Unconstructive

[Shlkt]

We have a very large unit (Seraphim Regiment) and occasionally you'll see two groups of SRPH members on opposing sides in the group queue. When this happens, it's never because of an intended sync drop.

Most commonly, one of our companies (a group of 12 to 36 guys who play together regularly) will be conducting an official practice while other members are dropping together in a different channel. They are playing in separate groups because they are not all members of the same company, and neither group is trying to sync*.

Often some of our members prefer to use smaller groups (4 people or fewer) so that we have to break less frequently for Real Life Stuff.

Sometimes we use multiple groups because more than 3 people are leveling the same weight class.

Sometimes we run multiple groups because we have more than 12 people playing. Later, as group sizes dwindle, nobody wants to meld the remaining group members into a single group again because that usually forces one group to wait for the other to finish its match.

In summary... there are lots of reasons why this happens on occasion, and it's never an attempted sync drop for us.

* Not gonna lie... when two groups do end up on the same team, as sometimes occurs... yeah, we totally join the same TS channel.

Edited by Shlkt, 08 December 2014 - 12:08 PM.

[R Razor]

Shlkt, on 08 December 2014 - 12:06 PM, said:

* Not gonna lie... when two groups do end up on the same team, as sometimes occurs... yeah, we totally join the same TS channel.

Now that I'm aware that TS doesn't attempt to match teams based on group sizes I can't see where that'd be an issue. From what I'm reading in here it appears to happen semi-frequently but it's benign in nature 99% of the time.

Edited by R Razor, 08 December 2014 - 12:12 PM.

[pwnface]

Sync dropping is a complete non-issue and people that think groups in MWO are trying to sync drop for some kind of advantage are paranoid. A lot of the larger competitive teams don't want to roll in 10-12man groups because stomping groups in group queue can get very boring. Also dropping with 12 people that can regularly put out 1200 damage matches, you'll find the damage distribution is usually fairly even and you'll rarely see 1000+ damage. It is more fun (imo) to have a handful of really talented players that can carry a less experienced group to victory. From my experiences dropping with HoL groups, it sucks to wait for the maximum queue time for a 3 minute 12-0 match. After a few rounds it just seems rather pointless.

[DjPush]

They need to change arty and air strike capabilities for 12 mans. All they do is send lights to scout enemy positions. Then chain fire arties to soften up and distract while they close on your position. By the time they get to you you are at 70-80% Without them having fired a single shot. It's a BS feature in this game and PGI is going to do nothing about it. Your best option in smaller teams when against a 12 man is to keep moving to their flank. The second you stop you are dead.

[Dimento Graven]

One more thing to point out:

Even when you are in an actual 12 man, there's no absolute guarantee you will be facing ONLY 12 man groups on the opposing side.

[Koniving]

I'm never afraid to face a 12 man, because I know it must have 3 assaults, 3 heavies, 3 mediums, and 3 lights unconditionally when my own team is likely to have 5 assaults, x heavies, etc.

I am however afraid to play in the group queue with 3 people or less.

Especially to play in the group queue as 2 players.

[R Razor]

Koniving, on 08 December 2014 - 01:34 PM, said:

I'm never afraid to face a 12 man, because I know it must have 3 assaults, 3 heavies, 3 mediums, and 3 lights unconditionally when my own team is likely to have 5 assaults, x heavies, etc.

I am however afraid to play in the group queue with 3 people or less.

Especially to play in the group queue as 2 players.

Yeah very much this........I've noticed several times today that teams in the broken up groups tend to be assault and heavy mech "heavy. Mostly Direwhales, Timbercrutches and Hellbringers.......not many people playing IS anymore, hopefully the Crab will change that.

[KuroNyra]

R Razor, on 08 December 2014 - 11:56 AM, said:

[Redacted]

Ho but everything already have been said about your "thread", all the answer were given and all new post are basicly copy/past of the olds ones.

Edited by John Wolf, 10 December 2014 - 06:53 AM.
moderated quote

[Koniving]

R Razor, on 08 December 2014 - 01:36 PM, said:

Yeah very much this........I've noticed several times today that teams in the broken up groups tend to be assault and heavy mech "heavy. Mostly Direwhales, Timbercrutches and Hellbringers.......not many people playing IS anymore, hopefully the Crab will change that.

To mention and give feedback on this...
The reasons I think for the Clan mechs is less because "Oh, these are better" and more because "I need to level these up."
Hellbringers are new, Timber Wolves and Dire Wolves have been difficult to acquire by cbills, so some people have only just acquired them. I still haven't fully levelled them.
However I have leveled all but 7 variants in the IS.

And yes, I believe the King Crabs will give people reason to use and level another IS mech.

[R Razor]

[Redacted]

Koniving, on 08 December 2014 - 01:41 PM, said:

To mention and give feedback on this...
The reasons I think for the Clan mechs is less because "Oh, these are better" and more because "I need to level these up."
Hellbringers are new, Timber Wolves and Dire Wolves have been difficult to acquire by cbills, so some people have only just acquired them. I still haven't fully levelled them.
However I have leveled all but 7 variants in the IS.

And yes, I believe the King Crabs will give people reason to use and level another IS mech.

Yeah hopefully you're right and that's all it is........though with the Timby being the God at the moment, especially with the "hop along HSR" issues, I don't think usage of those are going to drop in any significant manner, at least not until the programmers at PGI figure out how to actually program.

Edited by John Wolf, 10 December 2014 - 06:52 AM.
Discuss the topics, not other players.

[MischiefSC]

People in 12mans get to play too. When playing in 6mans I would say my win/loss against 12mans is 50/50. When I used to play in pug created 12mans we lost more than we won.

The problem here absolutely is not '12mans'. It's the group queue. If you're going to play in the group queue.....

PLAY IN A MOTHER ******* GROUP. If you don't feel like being a team player then go pug. If you're going to drop in the god damn mother ******* group queue then you need to play like all 11 other people on your team are... your team. The only reason at all for 12mans to roll 6 2mans is that the 6 2mans aren't going to coordinate. They're going to play like they're in pugs.

I drop in 2mans and 3mans with friends sometimes. We do great; you stick with the bigger teams and play support for them. Stick with them, support them, crazy as it sounds play like you're on the same team.

I don't always feel like playing in a group. Then I pug. Grind matches, earn space ducats. If you're going to drop in the group queue though you need to play to your team. Communicate in chat and if you're the smaller group you follow and support the big group.

People pugging in the group queue are why bigger teams tend to roll.

That, and the other big terrible elephant in the room for MW:O -

Practice doesn't make perfect.

Perfect practice makes perfect.

4,000 drops doesn't make you good or experienced or mean you're an 1800 Elo. It just means you've played a lot. You may be very good at playing badly. Because the tool your using to measure with (your perception) is what isn't working if you're playing bad (you're doing what seems right to you) you can never tell how good you are at something.

That's where good teams shine. 4,000 pug matches doesn't make you good. It'll make you reasonably competent but not good. 400 matches with good people will make you good. 40 matches with exceptional people will make you good too.

That, not coms, are why good teams face roll people. They are focused on getting good and they share that with each other and practice being good with each other. You don't become an Olympic runner by running every single day. You become an Olympic runner by having the right coach and the right training with the right people who actually know what being an Olympic runner looks like.

The issues with the group queue isn't mixed group sizes - it's that some people show up to play as a team in a group and some people show up as plus-sized pugs and the groups do to them the same thing they do to other pugs - they stomp on them.

Not sure how to fix that. Some people show up to play as a team and part of a group; some people show up to the group queue to play like it's a pug match and then are surprised when they get.... rolled like pugs by a group.

If you go to the group queue.

Play like you're in a group.

That group is your whole team. 12 players.

If you don't, you're pugging in the group queue.

[Dimento Graven]

MischiefSC, on 08 December 2014 - 01:50 PM, said:

...

If you don't, you're pugging in the group queue.

It felt preachy and maybe a bit condescending (or maybe I'm just grumpy I dunno) but the over all gist of what you say is true.

[R Razor]

Dimento Graven, on 08 December 2014 - 01:57 PM, said:

It felt preachy and maybe a bit condescending (or maybe I'm just grumpy I dunno) but the over all gist of what you say is true.

Agreed........though it can sometimes be difficult to get a group of your "clan" all on at the same time regularly for practice.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

WTB ingame VOIP

[MischiefSC]

Dimento Graven, on 08 December 2014 - 01:57 PM, said:

It felt preachy and maybe a bit condescending (or maybe I'm just grumpy I dunno) but the over all gist of what you say is true.

It was preachy and condescending. It's been a rough couple of weeks in the group queue. It was certainly not the most diplomatic thing I've posted.

This idea though that if you want to drop with a couple of friends in the group queue you should be able to just derp around and still be fine doesn't work. It's not fair, not to anyone - not your teammates, not the other team. Everyone else is there in the group queue, waiting longer for everyone to get into the drop and get ready and such, because they're intentionally picking the team experience over the solo one. Derping in the group queue isn't cool.

That is exactly and precisely what the pug queue is for. Go do your own thing. Be on TS with your friends, laughing about your matches. No, you don't get to drop with friends in the pug queue because it's still an advantage - it's like being Pugs +.

Especially though when you see 2, 3, 5 man groups from teams you KNOW are organized and know how to play well but still treat the 10-man they've dropped with like it's a team of pugs....

Most the problems with this game are products of our own creation, our own bad behaviors. Players who are better players than you (or me or whoever) are not better because they know some 'cheat' or are tricking the system - they are better because they put in more work with other very good people and invested the time and training in getting good. It's not because they're in a bigger group or have super-secret builds.

For most of us it's not worth the effort. The rate of return for effort invested vs increase in performance scales back exponentially as you go up the skill curve; that's why really skilled people (at anything) are so rare. I have no doubt top performing teams make people grind matches in mechs they hate and builds they hate, grind repeated scenarios to practice specific skills and otherwise 'train' instead of just 'play'. Props to them; I don't begrudge them that. I'm here to play and have fun, that's a bit more energy than I have to expend here.

Saying though that they are now not allowed to play in 12mans or that the problem is that they do play in 12mans is incredibly disingenuous. They stomp you and me in groups of 4 too - we're just biologically designed for pattern recognition and so we place more relevance on the times they do it in a 12man vs when they're a 4man with 2 other 4mans who beat us. We remember it better, we place more weight on the memory of it and we create a false equivalence.

12mans are just 12 players playing together. 2 6mans are just as good, short of top-level competitive play. Average night in the group queue though I absolutely doubt there's more than 1 and rarely even 1 12man team on coms playing full out with a specifically designed deck. It's just a bunch of friends playing together with other friends they can (usually, hopefully, maybe) trust not to be derping.

All 11 other people are your team in group queue though. They should all be there, i group queue, to win as a team. The problem isn't the size of individual groups; it's the approach and attitude. At times that reaches a point where it irks the bjesus out of me.