15 replies to this topic

[Uthael]

I used "Search" and there no active thread on this topic. I've found some closed ones and one in which the discussion went off-topic in this direction.

I'd propose some Gauss gameplay changes:

- a pilot can charge the rifle at will and shoot it on a button press. Even if that means binding one more control OR having to click once for charge and once for fire
- a pilot can fire at will the moment he/she presses the button assigned
- a pilot is able to charge and discharge the rifle even with no ammo (would shoot nothing)
- as stated in posts before, Gauss rifles explode only if charged
- a pilot would have to be careful about when to have it charged. If one spends his/her ammo and dies to Gauss explosion, it's natural selection
-one would also have to remember to pre-charge the rifle long before each shot. Here I'd suggest no cooldown time, but much longer charge time to compensate.

Now we can keep the charge time, fire it on demand, be careful about explosions and have a say in it and maybe even enable chain-fire again. Although Gauss Cooldown Module would have to be changed. Gauss Charge Module mayhaps?
And to correct: capacitors CAN hold their charge for quite a long time and today's supercapacitors can reach up to 15 Wh/kg (54 kJ/kg) of energy density. Gauss weights tons and technology should've advanced by then.

Edit: typo

Edited by Uthael, 07 December 2014 - 03:12 PM.

[RazarG]

No No No. Firstly , explain the need for a change? Why these changes, they mainly seem for the sake of it, or are you having trouble with the guass charge system?

Guass's are great weaps as they are now imo. The OP nature of them has been greatly reduced by the charge time and due to this they are only nasty in the hands of a pilot with decent aim, and enough hours practicing the cool down.

Even then, i could maybe agree if i was able to see the reasons for these changes...sounds like you are proposing these changes to suit yourself, if that's the reason then I cannot get behind it.

[Erebus Alpha]

I have zero trouble whatsoever nailing a 170 KPH locust with a gauss rifle, as long as there is a lower arm actuator involved.

I would still support the option to 'permacharge' the gauss, with the caveat being that only a charged gauss rifle explodes, and thus, keeping it charged isn't wise. HOWEVER, the damage that a gauss rifle explosion currently inflicts would not support such a risk/reward situation. The explosion damage would need to be increased, more in line with other ammunition explosion damages. At the current gauss explosion damage, there would be almost no reason to walk around with an uncharged gauss rifle.

[zortesh]

Sorry but guass rifles are still the king of all weapons as they are.

The ability to precharge and leave them charged would make them ridiculously op, and reduce them from a true sniper weapon to a twitch fire weapon.

The fact there explosive is irrelevant... any ammo explosion would do more damage, and once a side torso is open basically any well built mech will rip a open side torso off in one volley anyway, exploding guass rifle or not.

I mean if they made a charged guass rifle explosion something to actully fear... arcing damage that ignores case and or mech shutdown maybe... but as it is... meh.. the explosion from guass rifles is irrelevant.

[Erebus Alpha]

zortesh, on 07 December 2014 - 10:11 PM, said:

I mean if they made a charged guass rifle explosion something to actully fear...

Yeah, that's almost exactly what I said. The current explosion is too weak to balance risk/reward of permacharge.

[zortesh]

ABFalcon, on 07 December 2014 - 11:15 PM, said:

Yeah, that's almost exactly what I said. The current explosion is too weak to balance risk/reward of permacharge.

How do you make it something to actually fear thou?

I mean no matter what, its just losing a side component faster, and with the amount of damage mechs put out a open component is gone instantly anyway... and turning the damage really high just adds a half ton for case, which is sortof a nerf but......

The thing with guass is a lucky hit on your guass rifle will probably lose you a component, but any hit you make on a enemy with a guass rifle WILL remove a component.

[Uthael]

Edit:

zortesh, on 08 December 2014 - 12:22 AM, said:

How do you make it something to actually fear thou?

I mean no matter what, its just losing a side component faster, and with the amount of damage mechs put out a open component is gone instantly anyway... and turning the damage really high just adds a half ton for case, which is sortof a nerf but......

The thing with guass is a lucky hit on your guass rifle will probably lose you a component, but any hit you make on a enemy with a guass rifle WILL remove a component.

Even with dual gauss build, I have to shoot the smart enemies 2-3 times in the same component before they fall. The DPS/ton of a Gauss rifle ain't really the justification to put it on a mech. Also, many builds sacrafice much of their armor or backup weapons to put a Gauss due to it's high weight. CASE would be overnerfing it imho. I've died to Gauss explosion multiple times already. And there already is a topic that adresses that as an issue.

RazarG, on 07 December 2014 - 03:48 PM, said:

No No No. Firstly , explain the need for a change? Why these changes, they mainly seem for the sake of it, or are you having trouble with the guass charge system?(...)

As far as I'm concerned, the explosion even in discharged state can remain. But I feel like delayed fire should be changed. "Just for the sake of it" and explosion damage aren't the problems I was aiming for.

I have no trouble shooting a mech that has been visible/on radar for a second already. But when it just peeks up for about half a second, shoots and hides back in his teams ECM, Gauss mech can't retaliate. Same with any careful light mech. Especially LPL or AC2/5 ones. They can show up for a very short period of time, poke and be gone. These 2 tactics are used in more than 30% of players on the field. Having to focus only heavy+ mechs and Leeroy lights seems quite limiting for a high prestige weapon.

Edited by Uthael, 08 December 2014 - 05:16 AM.

[Kyrs]

Personnally I believe that the gauss in it current form is op vs other balistic. The charge mechanic was a very minor nerf to it OPness in my hands.

It currently beat all the brawling clan weapons with it no heat an extremely high ballistic speed and pinpoint damage.

The only change (NERF) I would do to it is a limiting it damage in close range with a linear damage increase;
exemple:
clan version:
0 damage a 0 meter, < linear increase < , 100% damage over 330 meter (ref: er-med-pulse range)

IS version
0 damage a 0 meter, < linear increase < , 100% damage over 220 meter (ref: med-pulse range)


Note: with the minimum range you could slightly increase the optimal max range, but would do that on a second pass.
ex: +110 meter for clan and + 75 meter IS version (1 third since max is x2)

Edited by Kyrs, 08 December 2014 - 07:17 AM.

[Nightshade24]

ABFalcon, on 07 December 2014 - 11:15 PM, said:

Yeah, that's almost exactly what I said. The current explosion is too weak to balance risk/reward of permacharge.

to weak? it always rips my torso off as soon as I get yellow cored in the segment with a gauss rifle and this is an 85 ton mech...

I shouldn't be scared of an adder with 1 flamer and in min range LRM's just becasue that flamer will make my mech split in half.

Doesn't help the fact I need a CASE on the gauss just so my CT is safe...

[shellashock]

Here is one I made that isn't closed (inactive for over a year though).

http://mwomercs.com/...p-time-dynamic/

I think the real issue with the charge up is the fact that it only punishes someone using Gauss Rifles NOT in multiples of 2. It is great for desyncing a single Gauss Rifle from other weaponry (including 3 gauss builds), but it does almost nothing to dual/quad gauss builds. With the addition of the mechanic that only 2 Gauss Rifles can be fired at once, the only build that benefits from the charge is the dual gauss builds (4 Gauss is crazy, but not too hard to manage firing wise). Therefore, we need something break up dual gauss builds and gauss rifles should be fine. I prefer a "ghost" reload system that prevents more then 1 gauss rifle reloading at once.

But I digress. On the topic here, I believe that the gauss mechanic is fine as it is and the only possible change I would make is let it act like the PPC's in MechAssault 2 (except let them fire instantly). You can fire the Gauss Rifle instantly for a reduced damage and slug velocity, or you can charge it up to dynamically increase your damage/velocity of your slug.This will allow the twitch shooters to shoot instantly a slug with roughly the power of an AC/10 with the sniping (long range support engagement for those like Joseph Mallan), potential to charge up and fire a slug with the current speed/damage.

[Erebus Alpha]

Nightshade24, on 08 December 2014 - 07:57 AM, said:

to weak? it always rips my torso off as soon as I get yellow cored in the segment with a gauss rifle and this is an 85 ton mech...
  
I shouldn't be scared of an adder with 1 flamer and in min range LRM's just becasue that flamer will make my mech split in half.
  
Doesn't help the fact I need a CASE on the gauss just so my CT is safe...

  
A gauss explosion should be powerful enough that (if fully charged), a Gauss Rifle mounted on an arm should rip through an assault Mech's remaining arm structure, plus an entire undamaged side torso structure, plus an entire undamaged CT-structure if un-CASE'd. Thus, there's a very good reason to not keep your gauss rifle eternally and explosively charged.
  
With the current weak and whimpy gauss rifle explosion, there has only been one time in-game, ever, that the possibility of a gauss rifle explosion put my mech in any probable danger of dying: I was driving a victor with an XL, with a gauss rifle in the right arm. The right arm and the right torso armor were stripped, and the internals for both were deep red. Almost any hit to either the right arm or right torso would have destroyed my mech, though even in this state, I survived the match and my team won.

Edited by ABFalcon, 08 December 2014 - 11:39 AM.

[zortesh]

Uthael, on 08 December 2014 - 04:57 AM, said:

Edit: Even with dual gauss build, I have to shoot the smart enemies 2-3 times in the same component before they fall. The DPS/ton of a Gauss rifle ain't really the justification to put it on a mech. Also, many builds sacrafice much of their armor or backup weapons to put a Gauss due to it's high weight. CASE would be overnerfing it imho. I've died to Gauss explosion multiple times already. And there already is a topic that adresses that as an issue.

As far as I'm concerned, the explosion even in discharged state can remain. But I feel like delayed fire should be changed. "Just for the sake of it" and explosion damage aren't the problems I was aiming for.

I have no trouble shooting a mech that has been visible/on radar for a second already. But when it just peeks up for about half a second, shoots and hides back in his teams ECM, Gauss mech can't retaliate. Same with any careful light mech. Especially LPL or AC2/5 ones. They can show up for a very short period of time, poke and be gone. These 2 tactics are used in more than 30% of players on the field. Having to focus only heavy+ mechs and Leeroy lights seems quite limiting for a high prestige weapon.

I was a talking open component vs open component.. a guass shot pretty much instantly removes anything open.. thou any good build should rip off a open component nearly instantly anyway... makes the explosion irrelevant, since if a component open its gone anyway, and if you shoot a enemy open component they mayaswell have a explodey guass rifle in there mech since your guass will rip it off.

And its not half as damaging as a ammo explosion of almost any type of ammo.. the only weakness the guass has is people know where you placed the explodey bit.

So it can't retaliate vs people poping out fast and shooting... Good... hell playing guass feels enough like whack a mole already too me and i have no problem guessing when people are gunna pop out and then nailing them as they do.

Nightshade24, on 08 December 2014 - 07:57 AM, said:

to weak? it always rips my torso off as soon as I get yellow cored in the segment with a gauss rifle and this is an 85 ton mech...

I shouldn't be scared of an adder with 1 flamer and in min range LRM's just becasue that flamer will make my mech split in half.

Doesn't help the fact I need a CASE on the gauss just so my CT is safe...

Saying you need fear a flamer is bullshit.. flamers don't do anything.. my direwolf routinely keeps its side torso after a guass explosion.

Tip pad every free space with half tons of guass ammo till u run out of crits.

And again... having a open component and being shot at by any competently built mech will usally result in that component being ripped off in one volley anyway.

Edited by zortesh, 08 December 2014 - 12:42 PM.

[Kain Demos]

I think adding the charge mechanic was unnecessary in the first place--they should have simply moved the cycle time to 6.5 seconds to keep people from brawling with them.

In MW4 the big lasers recycled in the 6 second range and gauss/ppc were at 8 seconds--we have a pretty high RoF in this game.

IS ERLL--3.25 cycle + 1 .25 burn = 4.5 second total cycle time. Can be reduced through quirks, modules, skills.

C-ERLL---3.25 cycle + 1.5 burn = 4.75 second total cycle time. Can be reduced through quirks, modules, skills.

Gauss being at 4.75, virtually the same as these lasers doesn't seem right. Neither does the PPC/ERPPCs being at 4 seconds--no wonder you can overheat with them so easily. They actually have a better RoF than than any of the large lasers, even the regular IS LL.

Edited by Kain Thul, 08 December 2014 - 01:09 PM.

[Uthael]

Considering all that's been said, I see the majority agrees that the Gauss Rifle is borderline owp as it is.
It's owp because of it's "weak explosion". The only mech this applies to are the Direwolf and the Atlas.
It's owp compared with other weapons, but with no regard to tonnage.

The only decent thought I've seen is the insta-shot (reduced damage) or charged shot (big damage) mechanics. Even with this change, I think one would be more useful to a team as a brawler with some other weapons.

That being said:
You can have your owp Gauss back, I'm changing back to my UAC/5, LL and one Heatsink in it's place.

[Firewuff]

Problem qith gauss is not that they are over powered. It is in combinatio with other heavy weps they allow you to do huge damage at a long distance and never overheat. The charge mechenisim was to balance them in brawlers but still allow them to be a decent sniping weapon. I still think that they should apply a torso twist speed penalty rather than have a charge. That would be a better balance at close range

[Uthael]

Firewuff, on 09 December 2014 - 01:24 AM, said:

(...)The charge mechenisim was to balance them in brawlers but still allow them to be a decent sniping weapon. I still think that they should apply a torso twist speed penalty rather than have a charge. That would be a better balance at close range

Yes! Here, have my like! I remember now that the "owp" issue was having PPC and Gauss hit the same spot for huge pinpoint damage. The mech would be heat efficient and be viable at any range. It can be done even now, but with bit little more practice: Charge Gauss, lead fire PPCs, aim Gauss directly and fire.
But having Gauss apply a negative quirk! That's a splendid idea!

Edited by Uthael, 09 December 2014 - 03:26 AM.