45 replies to this topic

[Col Jaime Wolf]

can we get it fixed please? if I hit one with dual ac20's to the ct it should die or be very close to dead like every other light or mech with less then 40 total CT armor+internal health.

just sayin I literally just shot one with 8+ ac20 rounds and yes they spread around a little but they all hit (i actually shot way more then 8 shots but i was counting the hits) but he didn't even lose an arm or a leg thats 160 armor at close range. All hits to mostly the upper body a FS only has 238 armor like any other 35 tonner

and no the FS didn't get me the gargoyle flanking me did. but either way I just don't understand how firestarters take so much punishment. I have lights of all kind including firestarters and I can do #$# in my FS that i cant dream of doing in my spiders or commandos.

spiders do seem to have a little hit detection issues to but not nearly so bad that you cant pull off a well aimed leg shot or the like. It just seems like damage magically doesn't happen, like an ac20 only doing 5 damage or something. a fully length pulse laser only doing 1-2 damage.

It seems like the only weapon that regularly registers properly is gauss, even ppc's don't seem to do full damage vs firestarters.

and i have noticed a difference stationary vs moving but even stationary FS seem to have some magical damage reduction.

am I just crazy or delusional or do FS really seem to just not take damage?

[Kain Demos]

I think the hit detection is off.

Last night I was one of the last guys left in a stomp. As the death squad was finishing off the last 2 guys naturally the first guy to me was a 150kph FS9-A. I guess since the win was in the bag he didn't even try--just ran straight for me facing me in a straight line.

I did what I always do in these situations--at least hope to take 1 or 2 down before I go. I put my crosshairs on his CT, held shift, and unleashed a 57pt laser alpha. The result was his LA was yellow structure and everything else was still untouched/green.

I've seen it on other lights as well, notably with PPCs. I've unloaded at stationary ones at close range and watched my ppcs pass thorugh.

[Adiuvo]

2 AC20s, even if both hit the CT, would not nearly kill a Firestarter. It would likely be open internals or it couldn't even crack the armor if the pilot frontloaded their armor.

Furthermore since AC20s move so slowly, it's likely that at least one of the shots hit another torso, especially since the King Crab has wide arms which messes with convergence.

Edited by Adiuvo, 09 December 2014 - 03:33 PM.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

Adiuvo, on 09 December 2014 - 03:32 PM, said:

2 AC20s, even if both hit the CT, would not nearly kill a Firestarter. It would likely be open internals or it couldn't even crack the armor if the pilot frontloaded their armor.

I realize this and personally I have 35 front CT armor on my firestarters so I realize that a direct ac40 shot to mine should leave me with at least a yellow open CT on my commandos i spread my front and rear armor evenly.

but case in point my KC has dual ac20's 2 mpl and 2 srm6's I did get a few grazing laser shots and srm shots on him (the FS) as well and by my estimate there was no less then 200 total damage that should have hit. but it just didn't matter I didn't even crack his armor, take a leg or arm off. compare this to a DW I leveled at close range in a only a few seconds with 4 ac20 shots and 2 salvos of srms and MPL. I easily can unload twice as much firepower into a FS compared to an assault and only leave him damaged but not broken.

plx note just today I have easily busted spiders, jenners and commandos with one salvo FS have taken way way way more then that and still just run away.

Edited by Mellifluer, 09 December 2014 - 03:40 PM.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Aye... I've had issues with firestarters and ballistics for a while now....

[Monkey Lover]

Start recording your games. As of now most the hit reg problems I see are really HUD problems not updated. If you look at the armor percent it will still drop.

Over all any mech running right up next a mech does seam to have hitreg problems.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 09 December 2014 - 04:21 PM.

[operatorZ]

Adiuvo, on 09 December 2014 - 03:32 PM, said:

2 AC20s, even if both hit the CT, would not nearly kill a Firestarter. It would likely be open internals or it couldn't even crack the armor if the pilot frontloaded their armor.

Furthermore since AC20s move so slowly, it's likely that at least one of the shots hit another torso, especially since the King Crab has wide arms which messes with convergence.

Its to bad that a lot of the really experienced competitive pilots defend the Firestarter, when its clearly OP, just to protect their bread and butter. Its clearly an issue if a Firestarter can run around, over and through a whole lance of heavies and assaults routinely and not die, I see this every 5th game or so, I am not lying or making this up to be dramatic.

That's not how I believe the light class is designed to work in this game or in the lore or TT.

It puts the game in a tough spot though, if we nerf the firestater by actually making hits count; we risk losing so many good players that are driving the game forward and I'm sure paying good money. I don't mean to be offensive or start a fight, that's just my take on it.

If you sneak up behind me and core me out in a light...good on you ......but should it be totally reasonable to absorb so much damage from faulty hit boxes? Its probably a game engine thing anyway

[Urdnot Mau]

yeah because of convergence and the high speed of the FS9 firing both at the same time would result in the FS9 running past the first slug, get hit by the second and you'd still get a hit warning. Furthermore, he might be able to outrun the slug just enough to grasp him, wich would result in a red colored aim and about 10% dmg done

But truth be told: There are far more clear proof that the FS9 hit reg is messed up. Pariah Devalis has an amazing video on that topic

Edited by Urdnot Mau, 09 December 2014 - 04:09 PM.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Really good, competitive pilots do not have to defend any chassis, OP or not to retain it as their "bread and butter." They will do well in whatever they choose to practice and excel in, whether its the meta or not.

Just point out the flaw in your premise....it is one thing to disagree with someone, but what you are doing is simply insulting someone who doesnt agree with your POV, because you want to frame them as elitist.

Bring some thought out, deliberate points and avoid the nonsense and passive aggressive bs and,you have more credibility in the discussion.

[Eboli]

operatorZ, on 09 December 2014 - 04:02 PM, said:

It puts the game in a tough spot though, if we nerf the firestater by actually making hits count; we risk losing so many good players that are driving the game forward and I'm sure paying good money. I don't mean to be offensive or start a fight, that's just my take on it.

Not all players play a firestarter and thus we are at risk of loosing such players because of the firestarter issue. I don't play them even as a light player because I don't like playing mechs that have "unfair" issues.

This issue is similar to the 3L problem of a while ago.

Firestarters need to be looked at, the same as TBRs and Stormcrow hit box issues...

Cheers!
Eboli

[Adiuvo]

operatorZ, on 09 December 2014 - 04:02 PM, said:

Its to bad that a lot of the really experienced competitive pilots defend the Firestarter, when its clearly OP, just to protect their bread and butter. Its clearly an issue if a Firestarter can run around, over and through a whole lance of heavies and assaults routinely and not die, I see this every 5th game or so, I am not lying or making this up to be dramatic.

That's not how I believe the light class is designed to work in this game or in the lore or TT.

It puts the game in a tough spot though, if we nerf the firestater by actually making hits count; we risk losing so many good players that are driving the game forward and I'm sure paying good money. I don't mean to be offensive or start a fight, that's just my take on it.

If you sneak up behind me and core me out in a light...good on you ......but should it be totally reasonable to absorb so much damage from faulty hit boxes? Its probably a game engine thing anyway

You know why competitive players have no issues with the FIrestarter?

Because none of us issues hitting the thing.

I have heard literally no complaints from any top tier competitive player. I'm sure there's some random guy that has who's technically 'competitive' because they've played in some random tourney, but anyone from the big, known units, doesn't have a problem with hit registration on any lights besides what's inherent to the game itself.

The reason so many people on the forums complain about it is that they don't realize they're missing. A red crosshair doesn't mean you were holding your laser on for the entire duration, there's a delay on it that is at least half of most laser's durations.

Edited by Adiuvo, 09 December 2014 - 04:22 PM.

[dario03]

operatorZ, on 09 December 2014 - 04:02 PM, said:

Its to bad that a lot of the really experienced competitive pilots defend the Firestarter, when its clearly OP, just to protect their bread and butter. Its clearly an issue if a Firestarter can run around, over and through a whole lance of heavies and assaults routinely and not die, I see this every 5th game or so, I am not lying or making this up to be dramatic.

That's not how I believe the light class is designed to work in this game or in the lore or TT.

It puts the game in a tough spot though, if we nerf the firestater by actually making hits count; we risk losing so many good players that are driving the game forward and I'm sure paying good money. I don't mean to be offensive or start a fight, that's just my take on it.

If you sneak up behind me and core me out in a light...good on you ......but should it be totally reasonable to absorb so much damage from faulty hit boxes? Its probably a game engine thing anyway

What you are seeing is people saying that there is no extra issue with Firestarter hit detection. Like you said its probably a game engine thing because I see all mechs not take damage properly all the time. Have I seen a Firestarter not take damage like it should? Of course I have, but I've also seen every other mech do it, including Atlases, Awesomes, and Direwolfs and its nearly impossible to miss those mechs.
What happens though is the FS9 actually spreads damage like a mech should so with that AND the hit detection/damage reduction problems that affect all mechs it lives a long time. A Jenner will also not register damage at times but when it does 90% of that damage will go to legs or CT and it will die faster. But it isn't the FS9 thats messed up, its the Jenner being a CT on legs and the game having random hit detection issues.

[ShinobiHunter]

Firestarters and Spiders are well known for having too good hitboxes and bad HSR. That's why the ultra-comps use Embers.

[Adiuvo]

ShinobiHunter, on 09 December 2014 - 04:28 PM, said:

Firestarters and Spiders are well known for having too good hitboxes and bad HSR. That's why the ultra-comps use Embers.

No, that's not why. The Ember is no longer used, but when it was it was for a late game focus, with its better sustained DPS over a JR7-F. The Ember was a worse early game harasser than the F due to the hardpoint locations and 2 less lasers, but it fulfilled a mixed role well enough that it was alright to take. Due to this, you always wanted a mix of both Embers and JR7-Fs, such as 2 and 2 depending on the tonnage limit.

[Gyrok]

Agreed that hit reg in general is borked. PPCs are in an especially bad place right now. So if you are shooting at a light with ppcs, you are twice as likely to get bad hit reg. The firestarter is not really op due to hitboxes.

Now, if we are talking about quirks...they just changed those up...so we will see which one is the finger of heaven after the quirks play out a week or so...

[Aresye]

dario03, on 09 December 2014 - 04:20 PM, said:

What you are seeing is people saying that there is no extra issue with Firestarter hit detection. Like you said its probably a game engine thing because I see all mechs not take damage properly all the time. Have I seen a Firestarter not take damage like it should? Of course I have, but I've also seen every other mech do it, including Atlases, Awesomes, and Direwolfs and its nearly impossible to miss those mechs.
What happens though is the FS9 actually spreads damage like a mech should so with that AND the hit detection/damage reduction problems that affect all mechs it lives a long time. A Jenner will also not register damage at times but when it does 90% of that damage will go to legs or CT and it will die faster. But it isn't the FS9 thats messed up, its the Jenner being a CT on legs and the game having random hit detection issues.

Pretty much this. All mechs have HSR problems and sometimes just don't register damage.

Problem is when this happens with a Firestarter, the time it decides to not register often ends up being the only chance you have before they close into their effective range for some SPL ravaging.

[Monkey Lover]

I still wondering what they updated on the hitboxes. Im sure able to leg them a lot easier. I wonder if they pulled the spider trick by increases the size of them.

[Lulz Kev]

I second, or third or 100th that hit reg needs fixed.

Having lights soak more damage then assaults is ridic.

[operatorZ]

Lukoi Banacek, on 09 December 2014 - 04:09 PM, said:

Really good, competitive pilots do not have to defend any chassis, OP or not to retain it as their "bread and butter." They will do well in whatever they choose to practice and excel in, whether its the meta or not.

Just point out the flaw in your premise....it is one thing to disagree with someone, but what you are doing is simply insulting someone who doesnt agree with your POV, because you want to frame them as elitist.

Bring some thought out, deliberate points and avoid the nonsense and passive aggressive bs and,you have more credibility in the discussion.

Looks like I hit a nerve. The usual protest are pouring in "L2play" " it's every mech"

My premise is that a large segment of the population see's the firestarter as having an issue with hit boxes or register or whatever and the only people around here denying it or saying they don't see it are the guys playing the mech the most...

I guess it's just coincidence.....

And please tell me where I was insulting. I value the competive players and their input, I just think that there might be a case of conflict of interest when taking their word for it that " nobody has any problems with the firestarter but you" .

I mean if you go to his link he says right on his twitch page that the Firestarter is the best. Period. So obviously it's his "bread and butter" what? You think I make this **** up?

Honestly it's not meant to be insulting but hey...it's the internets ������

And like I said before, you ace me in your Firestarter ...good on you.

Edited by operatorZ, 09 December 2014 - 10:35 PM.

[operatorZ]

Adiuvo, on 09 December 2014 - 04:19 PM, said:

You know why competitive players have no issues with the FIrestarter?

Because none of us issues hitting the thing.

I have heard literally no complaints from any top tier competitive player. I'm sure there's some random guy that has who's technically 'competitive' because they've played in some random tourney, but anyone from the big, known units, doesn't have a problem with hit registration on any lights besides what's inherent to the game itself.

The reason so many people on the forums complain about it is that they don't realize they're missing. A red crosshair doesn't mean you were holding your laser on for the entire duration, there's a delay on it that is at least half of most laser's durations.

Cool, that's all I wanted was a little verification that there is a problem with hit reg. But it just so happens that the mech that exploits/ abuses this "game problem" the most is the Firestarter.....so what are we do do? I mean if a red crosshair doesn't mean I'm hitting you is that "my problem" or is it a legitimate issue to be addressed in game?

You seem like a smart guy and I really don't mean to offend you, I just want to cut through the chaff here and get to the issue.