18 replies to this topic

[ShadowbaneX]

In order to counter Clan Tech there was some talk of giving the IS a slight advantage numerically in fight, 3 lances (12 mechs) vs 2 stars (10 mechs), but due to programming limitations that just doesn't work...but there might actually be another way of doing it that might not require a lot of backend reworking and that is: why not just give IS players 5 mechs for their drop decs while the Clans get 4?

The numbers don't quite line up (60 vs 50 to 60:48) but it's pretty close. Perhaps there could be a little limitation on tonnage, so rather than just giving a flat additional 60 tons they get an extra 40 tons, so it'd be 280 tons to 240 tons for instance.

[superteds]

it's pretty balanced already

[Walluh]

It is already pretty balanced. These maps reeeeally don't do much for the clans range advantage, at least on the offense..which the clans are supposed to primarily be on.

Edited by Walluh, 13 December 2014 - 10:59 AM.

[LauLiao]

ShadowbaneX, on 13 December 2014 - 10:54 AM, said:

In order to counter Clan Tech there was some talk of giving the IS a slight advantage numerically in fight, 3 lances (12 mechs) vs 2 stars (10 mechs), but due to programming limitations that just doesn't work...but there might actually be another way of doing it that might not require a lot of backend reworking and that is: why not just give IS players 5 mechs for their drop decs while the Clans get 4?

The numbers don't quite line up (60 vs 50 to 60:48) but it's pretty close. Perhaps there could be a little limitation on tonnage, so rather than just giving a flat additional 60 tons they get an extra 40 tons, so it'd be 280 tons to 240 tons for instance.

This would be conceding that the Clans are inherently stronger than IS, which would mean that standard 12v12 drops are therefore necessarily biased towards Clan mechs.

[Lexx]

Clan and IS mechs are pretty balanced right now with the new quirks. The main thing to keep in mind when fighting the clans is that they have a range advantage. Don't sit back at long range hiding behind cover and play the peekaboo game with them. You will lose if you fight a ranged battle against clan mechs.

What I find works best is to group up and mob them, get into brawling range. Clan mechs usually run hotter than IS mechs so they can't keep up the same rate of sustained fire. Try to take off their arms and side torsos, that's where they tend to have most of their firepower.

[LordKnightFandragon]

How bout no? The clans are not OP. They are already nerfed a ton..

IS Have quirks, better overall PPFLD. The Clan vs IS balance is more geared towards the gamemode being very damn hard to attack and win. Its nothing to do with the mechs.

[ShadowbaneX]

I'm not entirely saying that the Clans are OP (also, thanks for the advice, but I sorta know how to kill them), but there's been a ton of nerfing to the Clans, and those are a direct result of the decision to not go with 12 vs. 10. With this as a form of balancing, some of those nerfs could be lessened/removed, or the upcoming clan perks could be made more useful and the main balancing vs. the clans would go back to the more canonical numbers & tonnage.

Yeah, it would sorta screw 12 vs. 12 a bit, but let's be honest, Mech Deathmatch was just something to do while waiting for CW.

[Vassago Rain]

superteds, on 13 December 2014 - 10:55 AM, said:

it's pretty balanced already

It's not. Try fighting clans when they get to be the defenders.

[Sigmar Sich]

12 IS vs 10 Clan , it was old dream about balance. Too bad this not happened. Instead we get quirks, which magically boost IS mechs to equal clantech. Guess cant blame devs for choosing easy ways.. (Piloting only IS mechs, dont get any ideas.)
But, its not the end of the world, i still enjoying the game Though never going to like current high alpha meta...Had enough of this boring gameplay style many years ago in world of tanks.. Sick of it. But nevermind, offtopic..
P.S. IS range disadvantage is a pain, yeah. But good balance is when things are different, but have same overall effectiveness. Like Starcraft. When things are clones, its boring.

Edited by Sigmar Sich, 13 December 2014 - 11:56 AM.

[superteds]

Vassago Rain, on 13 December 2014 - 11:51 AM, said:

It's not. Try fighting clans when they get to be the defenders.

If they're unbalanced in that instance then the best way to fix it would be with map tweaks, rather than changing the mechs/weapons themselves which impacts the whole game though

disclaimer; I don't own a single clan mech

[LordKnightFandragon]

Sigmar Sich, on 13 December 2014 - 11:53 AM, said:

12 IS vs 10 Clan , it was old dream about balance. Too bad this not happened. Instead we get quirks, which magically boost IS mechs to equal clantech. Guess cant blame devs for choosing easy ways.. (Piloting only IS mechs, dont get any ideas.)
But, its not the end of the world, i still enjoying the game Though never going to like current high alpha meta...Had enough of this boring gameplay style many years ago in world of tanks.. Sick of it. But nevermind, offtopic..
P.S. IS range disadvantage is a pain, yeah. But good balance is when things are different, but have same overall effectiveness. Like Starcraft. When things are clones, its boring.

You know how they could limit the high meta? ITs stupid, like most other mechanics, but they could place fire limits on weapons so that we cannot fire any combination of weapons that equals more then 20dmg...how that would work, idk....sounds like alot of coding work though....

[Wine O]

We should let the data metrics decide if there is an imbalance, not individual personal experiences. My gut feeling is the battlefield will be pretty weighted to the clan side once things settle down and people figure out how to play (can't go by what we see right now, newbishness is going to have a big effect). If clans were winning 60%-ish pre CW, that advantage is even bigger in CW because we have 4 waves of mechs. I am not getting into the math but if wave one is 60% clan then each subsequent wave will see a higher and higher clan advantage as they are not dying off as fast. The largest issues are the range, slot spaces, speed of targetting data, and the massive amount of ammo clans can muster which is not balanced out completely by quirks. Range (in my opinion) is much greater than cooldown and other factors. IS quirks mean jack when you can't even bring your guns to bear.

At any rate, it's fine for now. There will be a reset when things are ready to rock and roll (i'm assuming). This is more about bug hunting and teaching people CW. Actual balancing should occur after we get these things done.

I should add that battlefield success is not an indication of who is superior as player counts can affect that. If we have 80% IS pilots, of couse that will skewer things.

Edited by Wine O, 13 December 2014 - 12:15 PM.

[Adiuvo]

superteds, on 13 December 2014 - 11:58 AM, said:

If they're unbalanced in that instance then the best way to fix it would be with map tweaks, rather than changing the mechs/weapons themselves which impacts the whole game though

disclaimer; I don't own a single clan mech

Sticking clans on defenders basically forces them to all play 'correctly' due to the ranges involved and the natural chokepoints. Attacking gives you more freedom, thus more ways for people to screw it up.

Under ideal play, clan advantages can always be taken much like in normal play, which is why some of them are OP.

[Jatix]

I was feeling the "CLAN OP, PLZ NERF" until I realized that I've never played a game that the attackers won without a zerg rush. For me every time I fought clans was my team attacking. Makes sense that we would loose. Overall I don't really think they are op.

[ShadowbaneX]

This thread wasn't intended to regurgitate the arguments about the current state of balance between Clan & IS, it was to suggest an alternative to the difficult to impliment 12 vs. 10 gameplay mode. Yes, this would move things in favour of the IS, but some of the nerfs that have been implimented could be unimplimented to counter it.

Again, this wouldn't good for normal game play, but truth be told, I rather like the idea of a drop dec and wouldn't mind seeing it implimented in normal game play. Same gameplay conditions for conquest, assault & skirmish, only you get 4 or 5 mechs to play with instead of just one.

[Khobai]

Last I heard clans were winning 60% of the time. So there just needs to be a slight adjustment to certain clan weapons IMO.

ERML is a bit too good I think. Same with Clan Gauss.

[AEgg]

Khobai, on 13 December 2014 - 12:25 PM, said:

Last I heard clans were winning 60% of the time. So there just needs to be a slight adjustment to certain clan weapons IMO.

ERML is a bit too good I think. Same with Clan Gauss.

That 60% was that clans were winning roughly 60% of the time when the clans higher average ELO dictated that they would be winning slightly more than 60% of the time. What it meant was that the clans were equivalent or weaker than the IS was at the time, not better (since the expected outcome given player skill had the clans winning more than they actually did).

That is, assuming ELO is even remotely accurate.

I think the problem with clans being too good on defense is just the problem of anyone being too good on defense. I've yet to win a game when I was the attacker either. Seems like you need organization to attack but don't need it to defend.

[Azerius Mezinar]

LordKnightFandragon, on 13 December 2014 - 11:48 AM, said:

How bout no? The clans are not OP. They are already nerfed a ton..

IS Have quirks, better overall PPFLD. The Clan vs IS balance is more geared towards the gamemode being very damn hard to attack and win. Its nothing to do with the mechs.

If anything, the Innersphere is the one that's OP right now. Considering that all of the drops I partook in resulted in miserable defeat of the clans. If the IS is losing worlds to the Clans, it is because the players defending them are gravely deficient in their skill, which, considering all nerfs against clan tech, and all of the buffs for I.S. tech is about what it would take to beat the I.S. in CW. A reasonably well-organized I.S. group cannot be conquered when they're playing the part of defenders, especially when they are fielding superior LRMs than the Clans (AMS stops fewer IS missiles than Clan missiles due to the missiles being clustered) - specifically on Boreal Vault.

[Wine O]

CW is weighted to the defender too much. 12 mechs on each side but one side gets turrets and dropship attacks that the attackers MUST traverse to win while a defender merely has to wait out the clock. All things being equal, defenders have a huge advantage.