67 replies to this topic

[Shibas]

It's a hard issue because if you limit the number of ghost drops per planet-- the problem that could occur, is if you use up your ghost drops, they counter it, then you go and fight to 5 pips and they stop defending, you couldn't take the planet over.

If you make it almost insignificant like a bunch of ghost drops to make a pip then it runs into the same issue of: well, it's close to closing time; lets stop defending the planet; they have to run X ghost drops to get the last pip; they won't have enough time.

Making planet victory a % instead of pips would be a decent idea. If you need, say 55% (6 of 11 pips) of a planet to take it over, you could have each win at 10% with each ghost win at 4%. So, 2 ghost wins will still get you close to a drop win, but not quite as much impact as wiping out their forces. It would still take 6 drop wins to get 55%+ but this allows less impact from a ghost drop but still making it somewhat meaningful.

Edited by Shibas, 16 December 2014 - 10:48 PM.

[Adamski]

Attack phases are for 6+ hours, 1 ghost drop per hour, the planet is yours.

Anything more just encourages attack spamming empty planets for pips.

[DOTSGEMINI]

The lore based map just isnt viable as it stands. Simply put, some of the IS can only fight IS right now, the attack vectors for some of the clans are silly. Territorially, FRR started off this war small. The clans were harmonius in their initial goals for operation revival.

This game isn't following with some TT mechanics, and weapons because of balance. The map needs balance, mercs need a way to simply do merc things for money. I guess there isnt a way to balance the organizational capacity of the factions. This is aimed at CGB for attacking CSJ, and Kurita's woes with sub-units breaking their ceasefire with FRR. There needs to be some way to initiate a vote for cease-fire and other sorts of things with particular factions.

TL;dr, Map is unbalanced. Units are doing non-canon stuff that is trite.

[ShinVector]

Grynos, on 15 December 2014 - 09:44 PM, said:

The problem is the frequency of ghost drops, if you eliminated them all together it would be easy for the higher population faction to refuse to defend a planet, knowing that ghost capping would not count.

The only other solution is to bypass the whole picking a specific planet, and instead have the person or unit decide what faction they want battle, in which case you could remove the ghost dropping element all together, and the matchmaking would essentially make the attacking or defending of a planet without player/unit input.

I am also thinking that just because some faction have so, many units under them... They can't do any sort of coordination of that level going and can't help defend their planets with their bad teams.

[pwnface]

Please get rid of ghost drops completely. It is really pointless to have to run through an empty map to kill the orbital cannon unless there are some kind of NPC vehicles/tanks or something to fight at least.

Instead of ghost dropping, when an attacking team can't find defenders after a 10-15minute search reward them 1/5th or 1/10th of a token and allow them to re-queue for a match. This way, defenders can't ignore attacking forces but can still have a fighting chance against larger factions.

The entire token system is really more complicated than it needs to be. It would be much easier to display the control of a planet in percentages. A win should reward 5-10% of control of a planet to the attacking/defending team and an unanswered attack/defend action should reward 1%.

[wanderer]

What I'd like to see show up are factional alliances.

"Historically", there were two- the Federated Commonwealth (Davion/Steiner) and the Concord of Kapteyn (Marik/Liao/Kurita).

Allow allied units the option of dropping into a contested world alongside their fellows, gaining a portion of the benefits if this means a world controlled by an ally that gets a "small faction" bonus to begin with. Davion units could then reinforce Steiner defenses, likewise Kuritan units could threaten people invading Marik/Liao planets with extraordinary levels of troop strength.

This option should open for a planet if enough ghost drops have occurred. Back in the original online Battletech, such agreements were more informal, but it'd make things more interesting and less of a cakewalk for smaller factions.

[IraqiWalker]

Haydin, on 14 December 2014 - 12:53 AM, said:

This ghost drops should not be counting towards planetary squares for invasion. As it stands, factions with fewer player numbers cannot really counter aggression from more populous factions. We aren't just losing, we literally cannot fight back. Sure it makes sense that you can overwhelm with numbers in-lore, but it makes for a pretty terrible gameplay experience.

And when I'm on the other end of the ghost drops, it's boring, doesn't pay well, and annoying. I wouldn't mind them being cut out of the game entirely.

I'm sorry, exciting or not. They are part of the war. I don't think they should be removed. However, politics are still something you can do. If you can't defend against the hordes being thrown at you, then you have no choice but to negotiate.

Although, the CCAF did lose a lot of units that switched to Steiner, FRR, and DCMS to defend against the clans, you guys really should be more focused on politics right now because you lost a big chunk of your player base.

Although, now that you have a ceasefire with Marik, you could probably focus more on your front with Davion.


At the end of the day, I don't think ghost drops should be removed, they make perfect sense, and removing them would just penalize any group of players that has a numerical advantage, for literally no reason. Political alliances that allow for joint defense make more sense.

That way you can get Marik players to help defend your worlds from our attacks. You could probably even negotiate with the Davion leadership to get a cease fire going there, and have your players dedicated 100% to fighting the clans.

Instead of getting rid of them, make it so that when the attacking team doesn't find any defenders within 15 or so minutes. Either reset the counter and give them a win with 50% of a token, or give the defenders the currently queued the option to launch with less than 12.

pwnface, on 17 December 2014 - 03:33 AM, said:

Please get rid of ghost drops completely. It is really pointless to have to run through an empty map to kill the orbital cannon unless there are some kind of NPC vehicles/tanks or something to fight at least.

Instead of ghost dropping, when an attacking team can't find defenders after a 10-15minute search reward them 1/5th or 1/10th of a token and allow them to re-queue for a match. This way, defenders can't ignore attacking forces but can still have a fighting chance against larger factions.

The entire token system is really more complicated than it needs to be. It would be much easier to display the control of a planet in percentages. A win should reward 5-10% of control of a planet to the attacking/defending team and an unanswered attack/defend action should reward 1%.

50% of a token makes more sense than 1/5th.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 21 December 2014 - 11:26 PM.

[Kyone Akashi]

wanderer, on 19 December 2014 - 07:02 PM, said:

"Historically", there were two- the Federated Commonwealth (Davion/Steiner) and the Concord of Kapteyn (Marik/Liao/Kurita).

Allow allied units the option of dropping into a contested world alongside their fellows, gaining a portion of the benefits if this means a world controlled by an ally that gets a "small faction" bonus to begin with. Davion units could then reinforce Steiner defenses, likewise Kuritan units could threaten people invading Marik/Liao planets with extraordinary levels of troop strength.

+1 for FedCom vs Kapteyn. I feel that limiting cross-faction warfare would at least have some effect on the balance as it would reduce the number of queues and relieve factions currently being attacked by forces that, by canon, should not be their enemies, thus allowing them to focus their efforts.

I'm not sure I like the concept of "allied drops", though. Whilst I would like to see this from time to time - especially in IS vs Clan warfare - I feel that for pure Inner Sphere conflicts they should still be separated. Simply preventing rogue elements of allied factions from attacking one another for lulz may suffice to normalize the situation and streamline allocation of military resources.

Especially if this is coupled with a dynamic contract system where factions pressed for reinforcements are willing to offer more c-bills to mercenaries willing to join their cause, further balancing the playerbase.

IraqiWalker, on 21 December 2014 - 11:23 PM, said:

I'm sorry, exciting or not. They are part of the war.

Not really. Player populations in this game do not equal the actual military strength of the various factions. Everyone is just an example of a nation's warrior class, and even if we are counting percentages and assume that each player stands for several soldiers, the numbers are still skewed and unrepresentative. Furthermore, unlike in an actual war, the factions have no way to counter numerical disadvantages as they did in the lore with clever tactics, diplomacy, covert ops and more.

Most of all, though - CW should be fun. Neither hollow "victories" against undefended territories, nor inevitable strategic defeat regardless of the defenders' valiant efforts (themselves at best winning phyrric victories), make for a good game. I would assume most players would come to this conclusion sooner or later.

CW lacks the canon regiments of NPC Mechwarriors, and it lacks local militias with infantry, tanks and aerospace assets. Please don't say ghost drops are "part of the war" just because military assets that, by all rights should be there, are not.

[Ax2Grind]

If all I get is a token for a ghost battle, please for gods sake don't make me waste 15 minutes of my life waiting for it. Forced downtime in a game is always the wrong way to do it. I don't like turrets wins, and I would love to a see a solution for them, but making people sit around for 10 to 15 minutes to get them is just boring.

The first fix needs to be greater rewards for CW matches. CW is missing population. And I mean rewards across the table, win or loss...make it so tasty for c-bills that everyone wants to play. Then add even more rewards for folks who play the low pop factions. Straight up double those cbills for the low pop groups. Get people playing. That way folks are online and pay attention to when the alert comes up (planet needs defenders!/attackers!).

The second fix would be to allow for asymmetrical battles. Roadbeer mentioned this and I love it. If all you got is 5 people online and the timer runs down, run the game. 5 defenders is still a fight and its better than turrets.

The fact of the matter is that turret battles are there to allow CW game play to at least continue when no one is willing to play against a team. Continuously limiting and punishing the folks that are willing to get online and queue up for battles is a bad idea. Instead we need to figure out ways to reward them so that more people show up.

[MischiefSC]

Total wins. Not including turret stomps. Have turret stomps count as part of a win; a 1% shift. Like destroying perimeter defenses.

I have no interest in empty drops settling wars but numbers should have a benefit.

[IraqiWalker]

Kyone Akashi, on 24 December 2014 - 12:34 PM, said:

Not really. Player populations in this game do not equal the actual military strength of the various factions. Everyone is just an example of a nation's warrior class, and even if we are counting percentages and assume that each player stands for several soldiers, the numbers are still skewed and unrepresentative. Furthermore, unlike in an actual war, the factions have no way to counter numerical disadvantages as they did in the lore with clever tactics, diplomacy, covert ops and more.

That's the thing though. The populations ARE a representative of the military strength. This isn't a re-enactment of the lore. MWO is more akin to an alternate reality, than a re-enactment. Different player populations are part of the military strength of the faction.

Yes, numerical advantage is too strong right now, but how can you reign that back without punishing factions for having more players? Or just more attackers (more attackers doesn't mean more players, just that for the time being this faction has numerical superiority).

Factions with large player populations are already punished in that they can only push one planet at a time per border.

Kyone Akashi, on 24 December 2014 - 12:34 PM, said:

Most of all, though - CW should be fun. Neither hollow "victories" against undefended territories, nor inevitable strategic defeat regardless of the defenders' valiant efforts (themselves at best winning phyrric victories), make for a good game. I would assume most players would come to this conclusion sooner or later.

Yes, hollow victories are not that much fun, but at the same time, they shouldn't be removed just because. If you have only 4 defenders on a planet. Should we be punished with not being able to play and invade that planet? Or that it takes us 50 times longer to take it than it would to take a planet defended by several hundred players? That's where this stops making sense.

Defense already has a massive advantage as is, no sense making it even bigger.

Kyone Akashi, on 24 December 2014 - 12:34 PM, said:

CW lacks the canon regiments of NPC Mechwarriors, and it lacks local militias with infantry, tanks and aerospace assets. Please don't say ghost drops are "part of the war" just because military assets that, by all rights should be there, are not.

That's still not really much of an argument here. So what if those NPC aren't there? Should the players be forced to fight NPCs because the opponent's players aren't there? What good are the players then?

Also, don't forget that it goes both ways. Those assets aren't there for the offensive team either. You can't really use that argument when we don't have them either.

[InspectorG]

Russ Bullock, on 14 December 2014 - 09:26 PM, said:

Thanks for your input and patience as we work through these items

Russ

Couple options:

Have ghost drops weighed differently than fought victories. 15 ghost = 1 win/etc.

REALLY incentive-ize longer contracts. For long term strategy, perhaps 3 months should be the minimum???

Mercs/short contracts shouldnt pay much, though in real life mercs usually get paid well above rank and file govment employees...in CW the trade should be their freedom to move about.

Planet rewards: each planet gives a weekly bonus to the Faction members proportional to contract length. Some planets should be worth more than others. Planets defended by a unit that is there most of the time(time being relative to some interval) should receive more bonus/distinct bonus.

You may want to reference some board games to make more out of the Map/holding territory for CW.
Settlers of Cattan, Small World, Alien Frontiers, Terra Mystica to name a few.

[w0lv3rin3]

just make it not work, it is only like 35k cbills for the winners, and they dont even get to fight anything, its causing the changing of hands on planets far to often.

[Lamhirh]

Myidea is that the larger the population of a faction is, the smaller percenage of alies should e allowed to defend their planet.

Example: Lets say Steiners are biggest faction in game. So there shoul dbe cap, like 50% odf defener queue should be steiner loyalists, and max 50$ alie,, while for Smallest faction, 100-75% defence queue could be alied forces.

[StillRadioactive]

w0lv3rin3, on 24 December 2014 - 08:17 PM, said:

just make it not work, it is only like 35k cbills for the winners, and they dont even get to fight anything, its causing the changing of hands on planets far to often.

Then nobody takes defense contracts and the borders never change. CW dies.

[Kjudoon]

From reading Roadbeer's thread on how planets now work, it seems they've fixed one of my major problems, but it wasn't explained well to me till now.

We still need to increase the number of tokens to take a planet by ohhh over 200 so it will take a minimum of 12 hours of work and battles to flip a planet, and keep it limited to 15 matches at one time. That's more like it.

[IraqiWalker]

InspectorG, on 24 December 2014 - 08:14 PM, said:

Couple options:

Have ghost drops weighed differently than fought victories. 15 ghost = 1 win/etc.

Sorry but that idea makes literally no sense to me. So a plan with NO defenders will take significantly (upwards of 5 times) longer to capture than one with defenders? What?

Spoiler

Simple maths:

It's an absolute minimum of 6 minutes of wait time if you already have a 12 man for offense lined up.

6x15 = 90 minutes. JUST to get ONE zone. 90x11 = 990 minutes to capture ONE planet with no defenders.

Nvm, it takes over 10 times as long to capture a planet with no defenders than it would if it had defenders on every drop

I understand that we need to make Ghost Drops not be an instant win, but really, we're penalizing a faction for having more players, instead of finding a way to help a faction with fewer players?

Honestly, the fact that a faction's numerical superiority is already hindered by that you can only take ONE planet per attack phase is a great help for the defenders already, on top of the advantages defenders get on the ground. Can you imagine how the map would be if they didn't let us have that restriction?

w0lv3rin3, on 24 December 2014 - 08:17 PM, said:

just make it not work, it is only like 35k cbills for the winners, and they dont even get to fight anything, its causing the changing of hands on planets far to often.

And not a single clan will advance to terra, EVER. Since the IS can just not play and go to public queues, and leave with invisible defenses that are impossible to bypass, by virtue of literally NO defenders being there.

[Kjudoon]

FRR will never be completely conquered.
Earth is off limits.
No faction will ever be completely eliminated.

So sayeth PGI.

[InspectorG]

IraqiWalker, on 25 December 2014 - 03:43 PM, said:

Sorry but that idea makes literally no sense to me. So a plan with NO defenders will take significantly (upwards of 5 times) longer to capture than one with defenders? What?

I understand that we need to make Ghost Drops not be an instant win, but really, we're penalizing a faction for having more players, instead of finding a way to help a faction with fewer players?

Honestly, the fact that a faction's numerical superiority is already hindered by that you can only take ONE planet per attack phase is a great help for the defenders already, on top of the advantages defenders get on the ground. Can you imagine how the map would be if they didn't let us have that restriction?

Well, how do you balance it out then?

Faction numbers are gonna be a popularity contest between comp units on one hand, and herds of solos on the other.

PGI could buff incentives to the unpopular Factions but if the rewards get too big people will just start gaming the rewards.

I dont see defenders having that much advantage. At least not as things are now.

12 vs 12 man comes down to skill. No problem there.
12 vs pug, likely in favor strongly of 12man.
pug vs pug...likely random if neither are on comms/sych dropping

So for instance FRR is fighting CGB and CW, they both have more people than FRR.
We can defend all we want, they will get us on ghost drops.

Not defending at all? Whats the point in that aside from trying to strategically give up territory?

So how do you buff outnumbered factions? If you dont want to nerf populous ones?

Im sure PGI will find a mechanic to solve it but as it stands now, its a numbers/popularity game.

[ShinVector]

I had a thought.. Since this is 'BETA' anyway..

Why not:
1. Auto Wins = 0 Wins !! (People can still run auto wins to get the rewards, if they want to but it count nothing to planet wins.)
2. Only real 12v12 match count !!

Leave this for at least a week.... Then we can see who is actually winning the battles during prime time.
If it suddenly becomes a stale mate... It is obvious that certain factions have been winning planets due to their great numbers rather than skill.

Just a thought...

Edited by ShinVector, 25 December 2014 - 07:40 PM.