14 replies to this topic

[Zfailboat]

So there are 3 main issues with CW as I see it right now.

1. is the Zerg rush
2. is the waiting times
3. is the drop ships.

Simple solutions to improve these issues.

1. The Zerg rush.

this is fairly simple. change the mechanic to cap the base to being similar to Conquest. Paint a big circle on the ground, and you have to stand in the circle for "X" amount of time with no enemy in it to cap it. make the area nice and big. Sure enemy teams can still zerg rush for kills - sure they can still dominate the defenders. But as long as the defenders have mechs in the circle the base doesn't get capped. this means the attackers have to either kill the defenders - or as the game starts to wind down - have enough of them dead waiting on respawn. to be able to cap. (or you could do a combo, must cap for 20 seconds to open the shield plate to then be able to shoot it etc etc)

this doesn't mean that it is not worth it to rush the defenders. as if you can rush them, and dominate them, you can force them to respawn and get high levels of kills before your phase is wiped out giving you a tactical advantage for the remaining fight.

It just stops the silly 3 minute zerg rushes that TBH no one really finds a good part of CW - even the teams who use them will admit that they do it because they can - not because its what they honestly think should be a valid tactic.

2. the waiting times

this is also easy. stop with the planet X needs attackers and planet Y needs defenders. instead simply have an option where you choose attack or defend for your faction. you are then put in a queue accordingly and you attack / defend as deemed required by the server. By concentrating numbers the MM should be able to find games for everyone faster. EG oh look Kurita have 12 attackers ready. right which faction has 12 defenders ready - Davion. Right Kurita are attacking Davion.

During peak times this might even allow the Match Maker to actually apportion group sizes or even look at ELO as I am sure the waiting time would decrease by a bucket load.

lets get everyone playing and fighting first and then open up customisation slowly later once people stop leaving the queue after 20 mins.

3. Drop ships.

Drop ships need to have their lasers reduced to ML's or have an area of effect put on them that only shoots mechs within X Area. considering that drop ships are invulnerable having 1 mech die every 30 seconds is actually an advantage to the defenders rather than the disadvantage it should be.

Or they need an error calculation added to the weapons so the weapons don't just hit CT and head. Their perfect aim system is unrealistic. If IS or clans had the technology to have perfect aim systems on drop ships they would be in mechs also a long time ago.

Edited by Zfailboat, 14 December 2014 - 03:49 PM.

[Alzarns Fire]

Great post Zfail. Fully approve. Had thought about point 2 (Waiting times) myself and come up with something very similar.

Hope PGI will listen cause waiting 20 minutes for a 30 min game against clan 12 mans, only to get smashed is not fun. And if it ain't fun I'm leaving!

Edited by Alzarns Fire, 14 December 2014 - 05:04 PM.

[MoonUnitBeta]

I think this would really help improve CW as well for smaller units (or just smaller "groups"), and also bring the old content into CW...

MoonUnitBeta, on 13 December 2014 - 09:40 PM, said:

Throughout the day, some planets should receive "special events" either for the day or for an hour or two, which allows 4v4 or 8v8 on an old map and game mode.

I think it'd be really neat to bring the old maps and game modes into CW with a special twist on them like that, but still enable the use of dropships. Would be pretty fun! Those would be some long and strategic games.

I don't think 12 mans should have exclusive rights to the fastest drop times. It would be great to see support for smaller units, so they could seek out these special events and partake in CW in their own way with just as short wait times as 12 mans.

This would make all the "old" content relevant, it will give a fun new way to play (4v4, or 8v8), and it will give those smaller groups a chance to contribute to CW. Seeing support for smaller organized groups would be a really great thing to see. 12mans are great, but there's no reason we cant have meaningful smaller scale battles take place as well.

[KamikazeRat]

Zfailboat, on 14 December 2014 - 03:49 PM, said:

1. The Zerg rush.

(or you could do a combo, must cap for 20 seconds to open the shield plate to then be able to shoot it etc etc)

I like this one, a slight variation is i think there needs to be a door covering the generator, something that needs to be attacked pretty much head-on, no arty, no side shots. you need to be where all the turrets are. knock down the gate (can have a similar mechanism to the other gates) and then you get clear shots at the generator through the door. it will slow down Zerg-rushes, but won't hamper actual winning attacks all that much.

Edited by KamikazeRat, 14 December 2014 - 05:21 PM.

[Dreadp1r4te]

Zfailboat, on 14 December 2014 - 03:49 PM, said:

So there are 3 main issues with CW as I see it right now.

1. is the Zerg rush
2. is the waiting times
3. is the drop ships.

Simple solutions to improve these issues.

1. The Zerg rush.

this is fairly simple. change the mechanic to cap the base to being similar to Conquest. Paint a big circle on the ground, and you have to stand in the circle for "X" amount of time with no enemy in it to cap it. make the area nice and big. Sure enemy teams can still zerg rush for kills - sure they can still dominate the defenders. But as long as the defenders have mechs in the circle the base doesn't get capped. this means the attackers have to either kill the defenders - or as the game starts to wind down - have enough of them dead waiting on respawn. to be able to cap. (or you could do a combo, must cap for 20 seconds to open the shield plate to then be able to shoot it etc etc)

this doesn't mean that it is not worth it to rush the defenders. as if you can rush them, and dominate them, you can force them to respawn and get high levels of kills before your phase is wiped out giving you a tactical advantage for the remaining fight.

It just stops the silly 3 minute zerg rushes that TBH no one really finds a good part of CW - even the teams who use them will admit that they do it because they can - not because its what they honestly think should be a valid tactic.

2. the waiting times

this is also easy. stop with the planet X needs attackers and planet Y needs defenders. instead simply have an option where you choose attack or defend for your faction. you are then put in a queue accordingly and you attack / defend as deemed required by the server. By concentrating numbers the MM should be able to find games for everyone faster. EG oh look Kurita have 12 attackers ready. right which faction has 12 defenders ready - Davion. Right Kurita are attacking Davion.

During peak times this might even allow the Match Maker to actually apportion group sizes or even look at ELO as I am sure the waiting time would decrease by a bucket load.

lets get everyone playing and fighting first and then open up customisation slowly later once people stop leaving the queue after 20 mins.

3. Drop ships.

Drop ships need to have their lasers reduced to ML's or have an area of effect put on them that only shoots mechs within X Area. considering that drop ships are invulnerable having 1 mech die every 30 seconds is actually an advantage to the defenders rather than the disadvantage it should be.

Or they need an error calculation added to the weapons so the weapons don't just hit CT and head. Their perfect aim system is unrealistic. If IS or clans had the technology to have perfect aim systems on drop ships they would be in mechs also a long time ago.

1: Zerg Rush solution: Give Omega MORE HP. If I wanted to play Conquest I'd play Conquest. Standing in a circle is not attacking, it's king of the hill. Then, reduce respawn timers to 60 seconds for defenders, 30 seconds for attackers. This will encourage attackers to take out defenders before attacking the point. Alternatively; add more gating mechanics to prevent the generator from being vulnerable right off the bat.

2: That won't work; the point isn't "Who has 12 people ready" it's "What sector do you want to attack to push your border out. Sure, one planet might have 12 people ready to defend, but another might be completely empty, and you can attack undefended planets as you probably noticed. That's part of the strategy.

3: Dropships are fine; they're actually severly undergunned from the lore. Just reduce the spawn timer to 45-60 seconds so they're not as frequent for defenders.

[Brizna]

In regard to point 2, queue times. I think that removing planetary queues would be wrong. I like that big unit can chose (to some degree) where to attack, it helps immersion and make community warfare feel more like a war as oposed to just queuing and geting on random planet you posibly don't even know where it is or have any interest in.

That said there should be two extra queues:
Faction Queue: You are available for any operation by your faction, either attacking or defending, and MM will use you to complete any group that has empty spots.
Side Queue: You are available for any defensive fight for your side, IS or clan, against the oposing side.

That way you allow big units that don't want just to play but win a particular planet for them, to focus on it while you let small units and individual players who aren't going to conquer a planet to just join in the fun without wasting time queing at planets that have no room for them.

[Prussian Havoc]

Zfailboat, on 14 December 2014 - 03:49 PM, said:

So there are 3 main issues with CW as I see it right now.

1. is the Zerg rush
2. is the waiting times
3. is the drop ships.

"Snip"
.

1. "Standing in a Circle" is so totally bogus.

At least destroying an Orbital Cannon is an authentic Mission. Breaching a gated stronghold. Conducting a running battle across a turreted base...

...all to just end up standing in a circle looking at each other's Mech while a timer counts down?!?!?

No thank you.

2. A highlight of CW is "YOU" get to decide what planet you drop on. Putting it all in the hands of a MM... you might as well stay in the public queue.

3. I agree. "Dropship Perfect Targeting" needs to be adjusted. While the laser may hit you for 80% or so of its burst duration (with the remainder hitting the landscape around you) it should move across your Mech, hitting multiple parts. I have no doubt this would be a bear of a programming chore but it would greatly add to the Dropship's authenticity.

If the "Perfect Targeting" problem is addressed though I would like to see even more turrets on Dropships. Auto cannon, missiles and PPC's by lore are also equipped on Dropships. AFTER it can no longer enjoy perfect targeting Dropships should for the most part be equipped according to lore... but using Unit Funds to UPGUN it's Dropships would be well appreciated.

[SirWolfgang]

My thoughts are that defenders should not have drop ships, but rather power up and walk out of hangers on the mountains. Which would then remove the timer, but make a fatal funnel. Where they have to walk to AO.

The attackers drop ships should be less accurate but should fly over the defenders base. This will balance out the base turrets effect a little more, and give that "OH **** they are landing" effect.

All automated weapons fire, turrets and Dropships, should be lagging to a small degree as they adjust aim.

Also, I think the auto queue should only be for defending. Basically, it's going on patrol.

[Zfailboat]

thanks for the feed back.

Yes standing in a circle isn't "Attacking" but then having 1 generator in the middle of no where, without any shielding on it powering an entire base is also logical? all I am saying is that we need a better "Win" mechanic than shooting something open and unprotected. One easy to rush goal isn't the answer, and a hybrid response is probably the most likely item.

point 2. Yes again I agree that having people unable to select what planet also isn't the best option, nor what CW was designed for. but there are hundreds if not thousands of players not playing this game as the waiting time is to long. There needs to be a way to have people get into matches faster. Maybe both options. Leave things as they are but add a ANY planet Queue for people who don't care about lore and just want to kill things and drop into a match asap. So that there is a back log of players waiting to fill up teams from any planet if they wish it. This doesn't force an option on anyone - but speeds things up.

3. Again I agree with people that yes drop ships should have more weapons, not less. but remember drop ships in lore can be killed. I wouldn't care if they had drop ships with gauss and ppcs if we could kill them and prevent the re-enforcements. This game is always about balance and I think extra balance would help.

Please keep the ideas coming, more feedback is good and can only help us improve the game.

Edited by Zfailboat, 14 December 2014 - 06:08 PM.

[Gruunok]

I would think a conquest like map would have been done, where you capture the point and turrets pop up for your side, and get you points, just need a bigger map. the dropship and turrets are a tad high power imo, just added firepower for defense which encourages the Zerg as thats the only realistic tactic. IDK bout the wait times they are ridiculous for solo queue tho

[Tarl Cabot]

On the Destroy Generator part. Make it two parts, Destroy the Generator and Capture the area to prevent repair. The Capture part is to prevent the generator from being repaired/replaced, and to allow more dropships in one piece.

That would make the rush in, do some damage and die, rinse/repeat. It would really come down to who can outlast the other. Imagine if Conquest or Assault had you destroying the gizmo there instead of just capping it.

As for the hanger piece, would it really matter if you were coming out of a hanger verses being dropped in a location, surrounded by the enemy? At least with a hanger type setup, cover could be added.

As for wait times, that is mostly due to jumping around from one planet to another since no one has any idea if anyone is there or not. Did the popup "Come Defend or Assault" happen cause only one person accepted a contract for that planet, whereas most of the others are elsewhere? Then ya wait 5 minutes, nothing and leave. But someone else had shown up 2 minutes earlier and they wait 6 minutes, etc,etc.

With the current information it is a revolving door until more than one person stays long enough to get 12 players together.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 14 December 2014 - 06:24 PM.

[Macksheen]

It's an asymmetric fight with symmetric forces, and that's the issue.

The fight needs to be more tuned on the asymmetric aspects. Not sure exactly how, but each side needs a challenge - and right now, the defender challenge is that they can be ignored.

I know it's hard, but I also like random maps. I think if the turrets spawned with random weapons (sometimes all SPLS and Streaks) enough of that might make it so folks wouldn't want to risk a rush just to die too fast to the turrets. Something like that combined with delaying the defender reinforcements a bit from their drop ships (45 seconds? minute may be too long).


They'll also add more modes to CW. I'd love to see planetary status go something like

Fortified (owned by someone) - all drops are invasion
Contested - once fortifications are down, all drops are 12x4 skirmishes
Fortified (once the contested phase is complete - it's back in someone's hands and we're back to cannon)

It could be fortified for the first 5 wins, then contested for the next 6 ... etc.

And ghost drops need to go.

[SteelKiller]

I would think that adding more objectives with subsequent effects might be a cool way to go.

Example:
1) Increase attacker reinforcement timer to...90 seconds. Defender remains at 30 seconds.
2) Destroy the gun, attacker reinforcement timer drops to 30 seconds.
3) Add a "communication array" on either side of the defender's base.
4) Destroy a communication array and the defender reinforcement timer increases by 30 seconds (to a max of 90 seconds).
5) Effects remain until defender is able to successfully counterattack.

Add some kind of primary/secondary objective mechanics that randomly change for each drop. For example, destroy the fuel storage tanks located at XX. Destroy the opposing force. Secure the drop zone. Etc. I'm sure something imaginative could be suggested for creating dynamic play scenarios.

For wait times, I like the idea of being able to queue up for your own faction, especially if you are trying to do it solo. I tried for an hour last night to get a CW drop. There were no posts in the forum, and I had no idea if I was selecting the right planet or if anyone was actually playing (it was really late). Finally it queued me up with other solos, and what do you know, opfor was a 12-man. And it was awful.



I'd say as the commander of a unit, sure, select your planet. For each 12-man that drops, there are 11 guys that didn't select the destination, yet solos have to somehow all be on the same page and all make the same decision mostly without communicating with each other. Maybe give the ability to queue for your faction OR select your own destination.

[Asmudius Heng]

I would prefer to see more mid field objectives.

The gates are one thing but seem easily overcome. I feel there needs to be another barrier to being able to attack the final objective.

There is this big mid field that when the enemy are not coordinated make for great battles, but attackers learn to just zerg on in.

This should be about TERRITORY control first. Take the gates, push up and secure generators or something via a cap system that then allows a barrior to lower and allow an attack on the main gun.

This way you have some back and forth taking mid points and fighitng there.

Say you have 3 generators in the mid field and you needed to hold 2 of them before you can attack the main gun. This would mean some interesting fights, lights waiting for the command to surge forward and take the main gun out but you cant just zerg in.

Now this might be too hard on the attackers you say, but if you made the turrets less prevelant as well and you allows the attackers to drop ship in on genertors that are CAPTURED so you can take territory and then reinforce it.

[Mystere]

I do not think PGI should do anything about the zerg rush, at this point in time anyway.

What I do think is that players should spend more time and effort using their gray matter in figuring out how to counter it. For crying out loud, this is supposed to be a "thinking person's shooter". Players better act like it really is.