44 replies to this topic

[Paigan]

In principle, I find the PSR idea a good thing.
However I'm pretty certain it still lacks a lot of things.

I have many games with a medium Mech where I know for certain I contributed a lot to the win, yet get miserable match score for it.

Here is what I do:
- I ALWAYS provide ECM for bigger mechs and counter enemy ECM when apropriate
- I outrange enemies and damage them without being damaged (or at least taking less damage than them) or even drive them away
- I drive enemies into hiding with a SINGLE (SECONDARY!) LRM-5 (You'd be suprised how well that works)
- I always kill UAVs (piece of cake with long range)
- I flank, hit&run, etc.
- I try to aim and kill efficiently, mostly CT or already cored STs.
- I do not hide with a fat LRM boat, I fight direct LoS and I take damage like the rest (if I'm not careful).
- Despite being relatively light and long range, I score 1 or 2 kills or at least some "most damage dealt" per match. I think that's relatively good.

The one thing I do NOT is brawling. I think it's boring and mindless.

And I hardly score above ~250.

I just had a very nice game: held several enemies down, 1 kill myself, capped, awesome victory. Match score: 135. Yay!



I understand that disturbing enemies, breaking their tactic, driving them into cover while the big guys close in and take them out is hardly measurable. It's just a huge benefit for the team but not really quantifiable.
But I also think that things like staying close to slower mechs, covering with ECM, hit&run, flanking, killing efficiently, etc. should give score or way more score than it does today.

It currently feels like if I just cowardly sprayed LRMs like crazy in a Lurmhawk, I'd get tons of (rather useless) damage and therefore score, even despite being way less help for the team.
I find that very frustrating.
I'd rather the score system would better reflect contribution to the win.

[Mcgral18]

How much damage did you deal that game? From my tests, half of your damage counts towards Match Score. You'd be under 300 damage, which is hardly a contribution.

2 for each Proximity Protection (being near a damaged ally, and likely all Protected Med/Light), Lance Formation should be 1 each.

Edited by Mcgral18, 25 August 2015 - 01:28 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

I think he said 250 damage Mcgral.. unless he meant something else.

[Mcgral18]

Gas Guzzler, on 25 August 2015 - 01:30 PM, said:

I think he said 250 damage Mcgral.. unless he meant something else.

I think he means he barely scores over 250 Match Score.

I've gotten over 800, and there are screens of over 1K (1500+ damage...I haven't gotten that yet.)


Damage is a large part, and Solo Kill nets you 12 extra points (or shoot both STs off to get arm damage and inflate your score).


KMDD confuses me, as it doesn't seem to actually have a score, yet it will remove a bonus (Hit and Run, potentially Flanking) for each KMDD score. It's only 1 point, but testing it was weird, to say the least.

Maybe my other things are wrong, but discounting damage and Win bonus, having the same Hit and Run, without KMDD I got 1 extra point, but with the KMDD, I had 1 less.

[Paigan]

Mcgral18, on 25 August 2015 - 01:27 PM, said:

How much damage did you deal that game? From my tests, half of your damage counts towards Match Score. You'd be under 300 damage, which is hardly a contribution.
[...]

*sigh*

If you think damage is the only contribution, then you must think boating LRMs is the best thing you can do.

There are a LOT of non-high-damage ways to contribute to a win
- disturb enemies
- provide ECM
- provide AMS (don't just quote this single point and flame it, it's little, but it's a point)
- provide enemy positions on the map
- counter ECM
- finish cored mechs
- headshotting a perfectly fine mech (hardly any damage, you know?)
- drive enemies into the arms of the big guns
- even laser tagging

etc.

I had something around 130 damage in that particular game. It was relatively low, even for that mech&strategy (normally around 250-300), but does it really matter if I had a kill (efficiently CT'ed a Blackjack) and capped and kept a Jenner, a panther and a DWF in cover until they got ambushed?
All in all, it WAS a huge contribution because I made the life of my team mates so much easier.
And even if you discount all the tactical benefits, killing a similarily weighted enemy Mech IS a raw, concrete killing contribution. It was just very efficient and didn't require a lot of damage.

Edited by Paigan, 25 August 2015 - 01:42 PM.

[Revis Volek]

Paigan, on 25 August 2015 - 01:40 PM, said:

*sigh*

If you think damage is the only contribution, then you must think boating LRMs is the best thing you can do.

There are a LOT of non-high-damage ways to contribute to a win
- disturb enemies
- provide ECM
- provide AMS (don't just quote this single point and flame it, it's little, but it's a point)
- provide enemy positions on the map
- counter ECM
- finish cored mechs
- headshotting a perfectly fine mech (hardly any damage, you know?)
- drive enemies into the arms of the big guns
- even laser tagging

etc.

I had something around 130 damage in that particular game. It was relatively low, even for that mech&strategy (normally around 250-300), but does it really matter if I had a kill (efficiently CT'ed a Blackjack) and capped and kept a Jenner, a panther and a DWF in cover until they got ambushed?
All in all, it WAS a huge contribution because I made the life of my team mates so much easier.
And even if you discount all the tactical benefits, killing a similarily weighted enemy Mech IS a raw, concrete killing contribution. It was just very efficient and didn't require a lot of damage.

He doesnt THINK it... he basing it off numbers and test we (the players) have conducted.

We have been testing it in PVT matches for the past few days.

If you want to dispute math or try to find some answers yourself go right ahead.

BAP, ECM, using UAV's to spot, Flanking, Protection and Lance formations bonus' all come from the things you stated above that offer NO POINTS.

DMG is still a big part (to the tune of 50% your match score)...once i am home i will play some game and prove it to you if you would like. Anything we can do to help is why we are here, not to tell you your are no good or anything else. We wish to see everyone improve in this new system which is why we spent sleepless nights testing it.

Finishing a cored mech is Killing Blow and is in fact scored (also kill most dmg dealt, but that can be negated apparently or maybe vice versa)

Using ECM is scored, counter use is also scored. (how much i do not know right now)

AMS i do not know

Providing enemy positions on the map is SCOUTING and nets you 1 pt and 2,000 cbills per scout. You can use a UAV and do this as well but someone has to target them i think.

If you engage an already engaged target and shoot them in the back you will get Flanking (disturbing enemies as you stated it)

So they are there, show us some screen shots of your matches and we will try to help best we can.

Edited by DarthRevis, 25 August 2015 - 01:51 PM.

[Mcgral18]

DarthRevis, on 25 August 2015 - 01:47 PM, said:

He doesnt THINK it... he basing it off numbers and test we (the players) have conducted.

We have been testing it in PVT matches for the past few days.

If you want to dispute math or try to find some answers yourself go right ahead.

BAP, ECM, using UAV's to spot, Flanking, Protection and Lance formations bonus' all come from the things you stated above that offer NO POINTS.

They likely offer points (1 or 2, generally), but I haven't invested time in testing those specific ones.

[Revis Volek]

Mcgral18, on 25 August 2015 - 01:50 PM, said:

They likely offer points (1 or 2, generally), but I haven't invested time in testing those specific ones.

Im sure, but i wonder if doing other things can take them away much like KMDD does to Hit and Runs...

[Mcgral18]

DarthRevis, on 25 August 2015 - 01:52 PM, said:

Im sure, but i wonder if doing other things can take them away much like KMDD does to Hit and Runs...

KMDD seemed to take a Flanking point away, and everything else added up, so maybe just some 1 pointers (but not all, as Brawling wasn't affected, just Flanking and H&R).

[Paigan]

DarthRevis, on 25 August 2015 - 01:47 PM, said:

He doesnt THINK it... he basing it off numbers and test we (the players) have conducted.

We have been testing it in PVT matches for the past few days.

If you want to dispute math or try to find some answers yourself go right ahead.

BAP, ECM, using UAV's to spot, Flanking, Protection and Lance formations bonus' all come from the things you stated above that offer NO POINTS.

DMG is still a big part (to the tune of 50% your match score)...once i am home i will play some game and prove it to you if you would like. Anything we can do to help is why we are here, not to tell you your are no good or anything else. We wish to see everyone improve in this new system which is why we spent sleepless nights testing it.

Check your logic.
I help:

Mcgral18, on 25 August 2015 - 01:27 PM, said:

How much damage did you deal that game? From my tests, half of your damage counts towards Match Score. [...]

This part is the testing and math you refer to.
I did not object that part.

Mcgral18, on 25 August 2015 - 01:27 PM, said:

[...] You'd be under 300 damage, which is hardly a contribution.
[...]

This is his personal and simplistic opinion about what represents a contribution.
To that, I replied.

You can now go ahead and flame me how stupid I am that I want to defy the naivety that you conveniently declared to be sober math, but in the end you just mixed up two different things and talked nonsense.

Edited by Paigan, 25 August 2015 - 01:57 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Paigan, on 25 August 2015 - 01:57 PM, said:

This is his personal and simplistic opinion about what represents a contribution.
To that, I replied.

You can now go ahead and flame me how stupid I am that I want to defy the naivety that you conveniently declared to be sober math, but in the end you just mixed up two different things and talked nonsense.

Shooting robots is what the game is.


You didn't shoot robots, you didn't score very high. Capping has limited bonuses, as does helping the team, but they pale in comparison to shooting, killing, and supporting your allies by being nearby (2 free points per damaged ally in a 150M radius, every few seconds).


If you want an inflated score, you need to be inefficient (or just carry exceedingly hard).
If you want a reasonable, you simply have to shoot robots.

[Revis Volek]

Paigan, on 25 August 2015 - 01:57 PM, said:

Check your logic.
I help:


This part is the testing and math you refer to.
I did not object that part.


This is his personal and simplistic opinion about what represents a contribution.
To that, I replied.

You can now go ahead and flame me how stupid I am that I want to defy the naivety that you conveniently declared to be sober math, but in the end you just mixed up two different things and talked nonsense.

Again, if he is interpreting the numbers PGI put in place, wouldn't he be stating what PGI thinks is a contribution?

I have said it once and i will say it again, please do your own testing and prove us here wrong. Unfortunately, PGI did not consult McGral or myself when they setup the triggers and the scoring. So again he doesnt think that, he is stating what he (both really) believe to be fact that PGI has implemented.

Logic!

[Tyler Valentine]

Apparently the forum warriors are going to rip you in this one but you bring up an excellent point. Everything you do contributes to the win, more-so than a lot of the guys who are just tanking and doing 500 damage. Funny [not at-all funny] that PGI always talks about "role-warfare" and then penalizes you for not just racking up as much damage as possible...

[Mawai]

Mcgral18, on 25 August 2015 - 01:27 PM, said:

How much damage did you deal that game? From my tests, half of your damage counts towards Match Score. You'd be under 300 damage, which is hardly a contribution.

2 for each Proximity Protection (being near a damaged ally, and likely all Protected Med/Light), Lance Formation should be 1 each.

"You'd be under 300 damage, which is hardly a contribution."

Wow. I disagree. Properly applied and aimed 300 damage is sufficient to kill several mechs.

When I see someone with 1200 damage ... I am not generally impressed with their skill but usually by the lack of it since 1200 damage is sufficient to core out 6 assaults solo. Many folks can't do 1200 damage without splattering it everywhere. I admit this softens up a lot of targets but does it represent a bigger contribution to winning the match than the player that does 300 damage in the right place?

I don't think so and that is one of the problems with a match score that is focused on damage done. Unfortunately, as the OP suggested, a lot of the other team support actions that you take besides applying bulk damage, just don't show up in the match score.

Edited by Mawai, 25 August 2015 - 02:18 PM.

[Yanlowen Cage]

[LordBraxton]

Lost all respect after OP claimed brawling is boring and mindless... So patiently waiting for the right moment and then fighting toe to toe with the enemy is more mindless than peek-n-poke shenanigans? No wonder the meta is so stale...

[Yanlowen Cage]

what I get out of this:
When I play with a team, they carry me. improving my PSR.
when I solo my true skill lvl comes out. that sucks cause I have to play in a higher bracket with my over inflated psr.
As I have heard from so many elitest CW and team players "learn to play"

[Tyler Valentine]

Mawai, on 25 August 2015 - 02:14 PM, said:

"You'd be under 300 damage, which is hardly a contribution."

Wow. I disagree. Properly applied and aimed 300 damage is sufficient to kill several mechs.

When I see someone with 1200 damage ... I am not generally impressed with their skill but usually by the lack of it since 1200 damage is sufficient to core out 6 assaults solo. Many folks can't do 1200 damage without splattering it everywhere. I admit this softens up a lot of targets but does it represent a bigger contribution to winning the match than the player that does 300 damage in the right place?

I don't think so and that is one of the problems with a match score that is focused on damage done. Unfortunately, as the OP suggested, a lot of the other team support actions that you take besides applying bulk damage, just don't show up in the match score.

BOOM! exactly

[Screech]

Damage still means too much. You really can't make any meaningful changes to non-combat aspects of rewards till it has been addressed. If you tried to balance them currently they would come out silly OP like what happened with the TAG bonus.

Cut the damage bonus in half, minimum, and start upping all the individual rewards in increments till a proper balance is made. Ideally I would like to see the majority of match points from a solo kill be from the bonuses, ie; killing blow, solo kill, component destruction, most damage done, not from the damage.

I have only seen one time where a players match score was higher then their damage done and both numbers were in the lower 100's, this is just wrong.

[Lorian Sunrider]

Personally my biggest issue is that the game overall punishes accuracy. I can do less overall damage than some of my teammates and 50%+ can be dead center of someone's CT and it counts the same as damage done to the arms even if nothing is equipped there.