38 replies to this topic

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Lyoto Machida, on 16 December 2014 - 02:36 PM, said:

May as well shut CW down and just award it to Davion/Steiner then. No sense actually playing it out when other factions simply dont have as many players in their faction.

FYI, Davion and Steiner did tend to have the largest armies. Certainly Liao had a far smaller population base, and Kurita's bizzare social structure meant they had a very limited manpower pool until Teddy K brought in the mob to bolster their numbers. Marik had to concern itself so much with maintaining peace among the member states that, barring some kind of extraordinary circumstance (Victor's foolish ploy with the sick Marik kid, for one), they were lucky to muster a meaningful offensive force. The FRR are a nascent state, so their military wasn't exactly massive.

The main reason the AFFC didn't take over the entire IS is that they always had to fight multi-front wars (either by choice or by necessity). Really, that's why none of the Houses managed to reunite the Star League over the centuries. As soon as you attack one enemy, all the other fronts look under-defended and ripe for conquest, so you always get ganged up on.

[pwnface]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 16 December 2014 - 03:18 PM, said:

FYI, Davion and Steiner did tend to have the largest armies. Certainly Liao had a far smaller population base, and Kurita's bizzare social structure meant they had a very limited manpower pool until Teddy K brought in the mob to bolster their numbers. Marik had to concern itself so much with maintaining peace among the member states that, barring some kind of extraordinary circumstance (Victor's foolish ploy with the sick Marik kid, for one), they were lucky to muster a meaningful offensive force. The FRR are a nascent state, so their military wasn't exactly massive.

The main reason the AFFC didn't take over the entire IS is that they always had to fight multi-front wars (either by choice or by necessity). Really, that's why none of the Houses managed to reunite the Star League over the centuries. As soon as you attack one enemy, all the other fronts look under-defended and ripe for conquest, so you always get ganged up on.

Those of us playing a computer game that want a balanced way to manage CW don't really give a crap about what happened in lore or TT. Sorry!

[Zeleglok]

pwnface, on 16 December 2014 - 02:51 PM, said:

The problem is, there ARE people actively defending the planet. Even if we have three 12-man groups coordinating defense for a particular planet AND win 100% of our defense matches, we can still be losing the planet to a force superior in number purely by autowin ghost drops. I can't imagine that this is the system that PGI intends us to use.

If any attacking or defending team queues up for a planet and is unable to find an opposing team it should contribute 1/4 of an attack / defense token. Since it takes up to 15 minutes to find a match, this would limit ghost win grinding to 4 per hour per 12man group. This gives REAL matches against LIVE opponents much more weight in determining the outcome of a planet but still allows attack/defending forces to claim territory if it is being left unattended.

It depends on actual online and twink difference. My version doesn't.
But yep, it's better than what we have right now.

Edited by Zeleglok, 16 December 2014 - 03:34 PM.

[pwnface]

Zeleglok, on 16 December 2014 - 03:31 PM, said:

It depends on actual online and twink difference. My version doesn't.
But yep, it's better than what we have right now.

I don't know what you mean by "actual online and twink difference"

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

pwnface, on 16 December 2014 - 03:25 PM, said:

Those of us playing a computer game that want a balanced way to manage CW don't really give a crap about what happened in lore or TT. Sorry!

Well, alas, because CW is the hard-core mode for lore fans and dedicated players. If you don't want to simulate the Inner Sphere, the Succession Wars, and the Clan Invasion, then maybe try normal mode.

[Zeleglok]

pwnface, on 16 December 2014 - 03:35 PM, said:

I don't know what you mean by "actual online and twink difference"

It will work if there are 5 times more attackers than defenders. It won't if 20.

Edited by Zeleglok, 16 December 2014 - 03:46 PM.

[pwnface]

Zeleglok, on 16 December 2014 - 03:46 PM, said:

It will work if there are 5 times more attackers than defenders. It won't if 20.

This is true but at least it helps somewhat. I don't think any faction has 20x the population of any other faction, although I may be wrong. My point still stands that actual matches with real live opponents should be weighted more heavily than autowin ghost matches.

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 16 December 2014 - 03:43 PM, said:

Well, alas, because CW is the hard-core mode for lore fans and dedicated players. If you don't want to simulate the Inner Sphere, the Succession Wars, and the Clan Invasion, then maybe try normal mode.

I don't care much for the lore but based on your logic, shouldn't the clans be wiping everyone out about now? The whole point of a CW game mode is for us as the players to mold what the system will look like, not follow the story with predetermined winners and losers.

[The Dancing Joker]

Zeleglok, on 16 December 2014 - 05:53 AM, said:

The problem's simple : if many, many players attack a single planet, especially when they form in large groups - enough defenders can't be found. So, those attackers get into a match where they have to invade an empty base ( defend + zero enemies seems to occur as well ). That's an autowin and a point for attackers.

The proposed solution is :
1) Winning an attack / successful defence worth a point. Sides can change, so we play hold territory or counter attacks, but still : 1 WIN = 1 POINT. Instantly. That's necessary to make a draw possible.
2) Each planet has a timer saying when the last ACTIVE match ( with both sides present ) , which was won by defenders (?) , occured. If somebody attacks the planet and they don't find defenders in time - ok, they get into a match with no enemy team. But if nobody defends the planet for, say, LESS than 2-3 hours - this match results into a DRAW regardless of attackers' actions. If nobody defends for MORE than 2-3 hours - this match can be WON by attackers.

The possible positive results are :
1) It's no more possible to grind points by fighing an empty base with lots of ppl attacking - you have to beat defenders if there are some.
2) It's not possible for defenders to protect the planet from capping by ignoring it - the timer ticks and you have to show up to prevent grinding empty base.

The thing i'm not sure about :
Only matches won by defenders reset the timer. There's more to discuss about it. Really.

There is nothing wrong with auto wins. It shows that one faction is stronger than another, thus they should win.

However all engagements should swing the counter. Even counter-attacks should swing the invasion counter plus or minus 1. That way, though terribly outnumbered, every win by the small team does count.

What we are seeing are defenders wins not counting because they are counter attacks. All wins, attacker or defender, should count towards the invasion counter.

[pwnface]

Scrap Catastrophe, on 16 December 2014 - 03:59 PM, said:

There is nothing wrong with auto wins. It shows that one faction is stronger than another, thus they should win.

However all engagements should swing the counter. Even counter-attacks should swing the invasion counter plus or minus 1. That way, though terribly outnumbered, every win by the small team does count.

What we are seeing are defenders wins not counting because they are counter attacks. All wins, attacker or defender, should count towards the invasion counter.

I think having autowins count as a full point on the counter is a big mistake. This essentially makes it so that the faction with the most players will automatically win through sheer numbers. Having a larger faction population should be an advantage not an automatic way to claim enemy planets.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

pwnface, on 16 December 2014 - 03:53 PM, said:

I don't care much for the lore but based on your logic, shouldn't the clans be wiping everyone out about now? The whole point of a CW game mode is for us as the players to mold what the system will look like, not follow the story with predetermined winners and losers.

From what I've seen, the Clans have been pretty reliably taking planets from the IS. Even the lower-population Clans haven't been doing badly. Certainly it's a real achievement for IS teams to win Counter-Attacks, which are pretty much required to prevent losing planets.

[The Dancing Joker]

pwnface, on 16 December 2014 - 04:01 PM, said:

I think having autowins count as a full point on the counter is a big mistake. This essentially makes it so that the faction with the most players will automatically win through sheer numbers. Having a larger faction population should be an advantage not an automatic way to claim enemy planets.

I see what you mean. Half or quarter +/- would be better for auto wins. However I think counter attacks should follow the same rules. Full for resisted counter attack, quarter for auto counter attack.

[pwnface]

Scrap Catastrophe, on 16 December 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

I see what you mean. Half or quarter +/- would be better for auto wins. However I think counter attacks should follow the same rules. Full for resisted counter attack, quarter for auto counter attack.

Yep. Essentially, if you have no opponent ready you get 0.25 points. If you win against a live opponent you get 1 point. If you lose against a live opponent you should 1 point.

[ContingencyPlan]

There's no way ghost drops should ever count for anything at all. They should not be in the game because the mere fact that they exist shows the queue system was designed poorly. I hope they are done away with somehow further along in the beta, and I hope everything is reset back to the beginning then because it is a totally broken mechanic that does nothing more than freely hand the whole of free space to the faction with the most players. My first night doing CW I didn't see a single actual match, all I experienced was 4 ghost drops and I certainly felt like there was no point to any of it. I definitely wasn't playing any game. Nothing a player can do while afk should ever count for anything. Nothing you can do on what is essentially the training grounds should ever count for anything. The system needs to be totally done away with. Nothing you do should ever count for anything unless it's on a map with live opponents to fight against. At least not until they implement a viable PvE system.

[Sandpit]

Switch from tokens to %
Each battle = x% of the planet moved tothe winning faction.

Whoever owns 51% of the planet at any given time "owns" the planet. That also means noone can own the planet and multiple factions can own a piece of it.

Planet A = 13% owned by Marik, 51% owned by Davion, 36% owned by Liao. So Davion "owns" the planet until someone takes another % from Davion.

Never understood the idea behind the whole token system personally.

As far as leaching in that system, an empty base drop could equal like .01% or some such as an example.

[Adamski]

Just limit each planet to a single Auto-Win point, then at the end of each hour, if no successful defense wins, the autowin point moves to the regular points.

Alternately, only allow a single ghost drop per hour. Otherwise, have them sit in queue waiting like solo people do when they choose an inactive planet.

[pwnface]

ContingencyPlan, on 16 December 2014 - 05:20 PM, said:

There's no way ghost drops should ever count for anything at all. They should not be in the game because the mere fact that they exist shows the queue system was designed poorly. I hope they are done away with somehow further along in the beta, and I hope everything is reset back to the beginning then because it is a totally broken mechanic that does nothing more than freely hand the whole of free space to the faction with the most players. My first night doing CW I didn't see a single actual match, all I experienced was 4 ghost drops and I certainly felt like there was no point to any of it. I definitely wasn't playing any game. Nothing a player can do while afk should ever count for anything. Nothing you can do on what is essentially the training grounds should ever count for anything. The system needs to be totally done away with. Nothing you do should ever count for anything unless it's on a map with live opponents to fight against. At least not until they implement a viable PvE system.

You just described a system where you could retain planets by having nobody defend them.. I don't think they should make us actually drop into a ghost drop, but the attackers DO need a way to make progress on a planet that isn't being defended.

[Tyrnea Smurf]

My take is auto-win is a byproduct of a larger/more active slice of the player base defeating the smaller/less active slice.

Planet Example is being attacked by 5, full 12 man companies, and only being defended by 2 scraped together 12 man pug groups.

Planet Example is in great danger of being conquered. Its just that simple.

If an attacking faction can get a advantage of having more players attacking than are defending (the dreaded condition of ghost dropping against no defenders) then good for them.

Its a good way to simulate having numerical superiority in a military offensive operation.

Possible mitigating factors for game play purposes:

1) Make an auto-win ghost drop count for less than a contested battle (say a half point or even 1/4 of a point)

2) Make the point total needed for planetary contest higher. 20 points for a basic world, 30 for a more important planet, and 50 for an industrial/economic mega-metropolis world.

[ShadowWolf Kell]

pwnface, on 16 December 2014 - 01:39 PM, said:

While this is true, in MWO the defenders aren't being overwhelmed they are non-existent. If 100 people are attacking a planet and 12 are defending, the super realistic approach is to just have a 100 vs 12 match. Since this will never happen, you should at least give the 12 man team a small chance to hold on to a planet if they keep winning every single match.

This was usually how it was handled in leagues and in some cases those 12 defenders DID hold the planet. Teamwork is OP.

I really see no reason for that to not be the case in MWO. In the end, the players are just pilots. The logistics of how many mechs are on a planet or attacking really isn't something that's a part of CW yet (or likely ever to be)

Edited by ShadowWolf Kell, 16 December 2014 - 06:34 PM.

[The Dancing Joker]

Based on

Sandpit, on 16 December 2014 - 05:29 PM, said:

Switch from tokens to %
Each battle = x% of the planet moved tothe winning faction.

Whoever owns 51% of the planet at any given time "owns" the planet. That also means noone can own the planet and multiple factions can own a piece of it.

Planet A = 13% owned by Marik, 51% owned by Davion, 36% owned by Liao. So Davion "owns" the planet until someone takes another % from Davion.

Never understood the idea behind the whole token system personally.

As far as leaching in that system, an empty base drop could equal like .01% or some such as an example.

It would be nice for PGI to develop a metric for how successful an engagement was.
If it is just a generator kill it is worth X percent[4%] planet capture.
If 'mechs were killed: Attacker kills - Defender kills * .4.

Or some sort of metric which takes into account actual 'mech combat. This would help deal with zerg rush, ghost drop, etc.