12 replies to this topic

[Sky Hawk]

I played in the first CW^BETA weekend as Solo against several opponents. I played in PUG vs. PUG matches, against/with smaller or bigger Units, have some wins too, but mostly not.. I played even against high skilled and coordinated Elite Clan Units. Mostly it was a mess, but least I felt their playing and behavior cultivated and respectful.

But, I played some matches, against very high skilled 10-12 players Teams, who don't fight actually for the win. They used theirs overwhelming skills mainly to beat and humiliate us. I can accept, when a good coordinated Team go thru your defense lines, as it wouldn't be there. Luck, skills, talents, practice? I don't like to lose such way, but fine, they were better. But, when this Elite players behavior not reachs the minimum of cultivated gameplay, when they don't even think about respectful to fight, (which I mean we deserve, even when not because our skills, but, that we do our best, and we fight against the certain dead, and not just disconnect). That can I not accept! In my opinion, such Teams don't deserve an easy win. For this reason, against that behavior, I developed the "Sky's Clan Ramp Ending Warfare - Encaged Defenders" strategy. (I had time for it somehow, between the matches.)


Practical Situation Example for a Team Leader:

Circumstates you need for it:
- a Team, who will offer for you fully 30 minutes playtime, and follow your orders, without defiance
- your Team start in the "Attack Side" of the map (no matter if it is Defense or Counter-Attack Game Mode)
- your opponent is a very high skilled, organized Team, against your Team chance to win is lower then 0,0001%
(Means: if 8 of the enemys players disconnect permanently, you could perhaps win.)
- you can be highly sure, that your opponent won't play "fair" (no respect, no cutivated behavior, no sign of any honor, etc.)

(The following part plays in Chat! You are BlueLeader!)
- It is very helpful, if you ask your Team before, to hold the Chat clear for you.
- [ ] = Sidenotes!

BlueLeader <All> Greetings, enemy Unit, with the Tag [Unittag]!
BlueLeader <All> Are you familiar, with Sky's Clan Ramp Ending Warfare - Encaged Defenders strategy?
RedsPlayer <All> lol.. No!
BlueLeader <All> Alright. The rules are simply. We DO NOT OPEN the gates, and we stay in our Drop Zone, till we can be sure to become a fair fight and battle.
BlueLeader <All> You have THREE options.
BlueLeader <All> A [The Attack Way ] - You Attack us here, in our Drop Zone, with your jumpcapable Mechs.
BlueLeader <All> B [The Boring Way] - You can stay the whole 30 minutes long in your Base.
BlueLeader <All> C [The Clan Way] - You all ejecting yourself immediately, from TWO waves of your Mechs, and we will open the gates.
BlueLeader <All> We waiting of your decision.


Tactical Reasons for the "Attack Side":

I know, this solution looks very crazy first, but please don't forget, it is actually some kind of Kobayashi Maru Test. If your Team is not a high skilled Elite, any normal strategy leads to a fast massacre!


0 - If you use the average strategys, your Team will badly lose and humiliated. Your enemy will have a fast win, and can go fast in an other battle. You lose a battle, you lose pride, your Fraction lose a battle within about 10 minutes.


A - If your follow this strategy, and your opponent choose the "Attack Way". They can use just their jumpcapable Mech to attack you, because they must jump over the closed gates. That means, no:
- Dire Wolfes, War Hawks, Storm Crows, Mad Dogs (Firepower)
- Hellbringers, Kit Foxes (ECM)
- Ice Ferrets, Adders, Gargoyles

They can use "just": the Timber Wolfes, Mist Lynxs, Summoners. Those Mech are still very deadly in Elite hands, but since you fighting in the near of your Drop Zone:
- you can use some cover fire, from your Dropships
- you can choose the terrain, where you fight
- your reinforcement comes within 1 minutes, your opponents need nearly 3 mintes for it
- you can surely overnumber the enemy
- even if you lose, you can make more damage and kills, as you had done in a simple enemy Base rush

I know, in this variant you can't win. You will not have the time to attack the Base, and probably not even have enough Mechs for it. But your Endscreen will surely look much better, than it would have in a normal attack. and you had an actual fight.


B - If your follow this strategy, and your opponent choose the "Boring Way". If you Team really have the nerve to stay 30 minutes long, in your Drop Zone, you will lose, and become nothing. It is the worst case scenario for you. BUT, don't forget, in viewpoint of Fraction Warfare, you hold up an Elite Clan Unit, and prevent it to attack for 30 minutes long. Even they can now go away, with A win, BUT in those 30 minutes, what they losed because of you, they usually win 3 battles! So actually, you steal from them TWO wins! (Partly that's why, I don't belive they will choose this option.)


C - If your follow this strategy, and your opponent choose the "Clan Way". (Perhaps, your was wrong, and your enemy has even a bit honor. In BT-Lore there are IS/Clan fights, with 2:1 Mech rate. The Clans usually bid their numbers down, like in those famous battle on Planet-T.) If they are really honorable Claners, they should have no problem, with this solution. Perhaps, they will feel themselfes even closer to Lore, or just see it as a medium training.. No matter..

But, with this way, you can have a minimal chance to a win. Or least a bit longer, and perhaps enjoyable fight, as you would become in any normal cases. To spare your remaining fight time, you can start move, as they ejected wave 1, and start to destroy the gates, as they eject wave 2.


In Short Form:

The basic this strategy is, that the Attacker Side, with letting the Base gates closed, prevent the much stronger enemy Team, from a fast win. With this strategy, the Attacker Side Team, which with other strategies has no chance for winning, or for even chance to a really fight, can force it's overhelming opponent to reduce massive their fightpower or lose dramatic amount of fightime. The Attacker Side have even with this strategy, not too much chance to win, but it's opponent will either learn a respectful behavior or lose long term about 50-60% of theirs wareforts.


Thank you for reading: Sky Hawk


Authors sidenote: Since I am a Solo Unit, I don't have a 12 players Team. So, I can't prove, that this strategy how exactly works out. If any full Team will sacrifice 30 minute playtime in the future and try it out, please send me a PM after. I am really curious, what kind of strategy the opponent side played against it. Thanks!

Edited by Sky Hawk, 18 December 2014 - 09:21 AM.

[Durant Carlyle]

Every member of any team that pulls this kind of crap gets reported by every member of the team that they attempt it against.

That's how it works out.

It's griefing, plain and simple.

Dumbazz ideas like this are why the devs need to allow the defenders to be able to kill their own door generators.

[Averen]

The correct counter is to hammer F12 while they are typing that crap. After the match you go into the USER/SCREENSHOTS folder of your MWO directory and pick the nicest screens. Choose some documenting their chat messages AND a list with the scoreboard (for names+clan).

Put them into a mail, add an explanation of the match including date, time, and planet. Then send it to:

support@mwomercs.com

[HARDKOR]

You can run over the wall from the inside if you know where and the elite teams know where.

Aso, this I some seriously cheeky greifing.

[Bene Gesserit]

Quote

But, when this Elite players behavior not reachs the minimum of cultivated gameplay, when they don't even think about respectful to fight

First you talk about respectfully fighting, then you go on to explain your strategy, which is by far the most disrespectful tactic I've ever heard of. I find your post very hypo critic.

[Nazar24]

A little extract of the rules & guidelines subforum.

Quote

Non-Participation Abuse
if a player has joined a match, they must have launched the game with intent to play. Players who are not moving, or are otherwise not participating in the spirit of the game, fall under this category. While we all understand the call of nature: Repeated abuse of this behaviour, similarly to 'Mech Suicide and Team Killing, results in an unfair advantage for the enemy teams, and is thus not considered acceptable use. Please keep in mind that idling on your cap point without armour or moving does not constitute a form of tactical "Base Defense"

Edited by Nazar24, 18 December 2014 - 06:01 PM.

[BullFrogOnNet]

On stomps in CW I have been in with my clan. Like matches of 48-20 range that is fighting 2-1 battles because we don't even have time to get to our other mechs. Your idea is self centered and bad for the community. Get into a Unit and work on things like teamwork and focus firing on the same mech. Then it is far less likely for their to be stomps but more fun for all.

[Pezzer]

Nazar24, on 18 December 2014 - 05:59 PM, said:

A little extract of the rules & guidelines subforum.

This isn't Non-Participation Abuse because the team is still willing to fight.

According to your interpretation of the Non-Participation rules then it is a bannable offense to camp the very edge of the map in Assault on Alpine Peaks. It is, in other words, an incorrect assumption, as that is 'legal' play.

I for one think this is a brilliant strategy even if it is ironically unfair to the other team. If I were going against those House of Lords wannabes I would probably use this strategy, as it is the most honorable way to have a chance at winning against such vehement and subhuman enemies.

Edited by Pezzer, 18 December 2014 - 06:26 PM.

[Asmudius Heng]

I loled.

While it probably will be a reportable offense i kind of like it, its clever but also horribly unfair on peoples fun on both attacker and defenders.

However i dont see a problem in trying to hold up elite units and force them to play longer battles without a sense of logistics to slow down assaults of the elite teams and provide ways to combat the nature of continuous attack.

I do not condone this but its pretty clever.

I dont see a problem however when faced with a loss to not just suicide charge in CW .... delaying the enemy seems perfectly valid when you have planets on the line - guerrilla warfare style etc.

[Tesunie]

Pezzer, on 18 December 2014 - 06:05 PM, said:

This isn't Non-Participation Abuse because the team is still willing to fight.

According to your interpretation of the Non-Participation rules then it is a bannable offense to camp the very edge of the map in Assault on Alpine Peaks. It is, in other words, an incorrect assumption, as that is 'egal' play.

I for one think this is a brilliant strategy even if it is ironically unfair to the other team. If I were going against those House of Lords wannabes I would probably use this strategy, as it is the most honorable way to have a chance at winning against such vehement and subhuman enemies.

This "tactic" could be a bannable offense for several reasons, two of which are dictated within the excerpt provided.
1. Non-participation through lack of activity. It does not matter what the "intent" is or the "willingness" to fight is. The act is still the same. You refuse to participate in the match from start to end, and are refusing to proceed or even attempt to try to obtain your goal. This is non-participation. No matter what form or cover you place over it. Milling around on your spawn "because" is non-participation.
2. Non-participation through suicide. You are asking for the enemy team to "eject half their mechs", which is suiciding with half of their available mechs. This could be seen as a form of entrapment to any team that may actually follow through on the ultimatum, as then someone could take a screen of all the eject text, and report THEM for suicide non-participation.

Losing is not "embarrassing", especially when its because the other team outskilled you, or outplayed you. This entire tactic is exactly what the OP is calling other teams out on, except in reverse. It isn't proper and decent gameplay. It's morally wrong, if not even more morally wrong compared to the actions (which I still don't fully grasp what these actions are) that the supposed other team is preforming. The moral high ground, and conveniently proper thing to do here, is to participate and try your best in the match. Then, if you feel this other team is breaking the rules, you simply report them. Don't give up because of them, continue on anyway because of them.

Community Warfare has a key part of it's definition already described, WAR. This is war. Yes, it's also a game and expect balancing changes, but until those changes come about most anything can go. (There are some obvious exploits that I can see being an otherwise counter statement, but those actions would fall under the "report and let PGI deal with them as they see fit".)


Overall, this whole tactic is a farce. It isn't a tactic. it isn't a strategy. It's an ultimatum presented to the other team before you are even willing to play. You can present better tactics than this easily. Here is one of them, stay at the gates instead of trying to rush to the objective. Try to kill as many of the enemy as you possibly can as fast as you can. If you get lucky, you may kill all of them and still have some time remaining to get the Omega. If you get unlucky, you can still hold that team there for a long time, preventing them from taking action again for a short while. Best of all, it's completely moral, completely within the rules, and is completely still participating and staying active. It's also a completely viable tactic.

Edit: To Sky Hawk (whom I've noticed has liked my post?), I mean no disrespect to you personally. My comments are directed only at the tactic. AKA: I don't know you, and I don't want you to feel offended but what, or how, I've said something here.

Edited by Tesunie, 18 December 2014 - 07:24 PM.

[TripleEhBeef]

If you don't like an opposing team chirping you, go to options and disable All Chat.

Seems much more logical than camping in your spawn zone for 30 minutes.

[Sky Hawk]

First, thank you very much to everyone, who said some informative words to my thread, no matter it was + or -, I am thankful. Here are some clarifications, because I thought, it is better, that I clear some things, even, when I don't feel a close connection to the tactics itself in every case:

- It is a mean tactics? Yes, it is a very mean tactics, against a very mean opponent.

- Do I want, that anybody use this tactics, just because of the enemy is stronger? Not at all! For many players it is boring, it has just a very low chance to win, and there is absolute no reason to use this tactics against a respectful opponent.

- Why I developed it, if it has no honor and bigger chance to win? I had simply a lot of time, and there could be opponents in the future, who don't deserve other response.

- Do I want, that this tactics will be used?
A. As creator, yes, I want to know, if it is works or not. No matter, if it just happens one single time in the future, and even just in Private Mode.
B. As player, NO! I would be happy, if nobody ever need to use this tactics, because that means, that all players treat each other respectful, independent from skill level, faction, balance, etc.

- Do I think, that anybody will really use this tactics? No, because it needs the cooperation of all 12-players. Such high level cooperation meant mostly a bigger Unit size, and such Units don't need to use this, they have many better ways to handle such a situation.

- Why I don't just disable All Chat? Because, the most of the time (99,99%), it is a helpful and very good communcation way. Opponents can greet each other, exchange useful informations, etc. I always used it, and CW was the first time, I thought "Ok, that was really mean.. I think..".

- Why I don't report it? Even, when I think it was unfair, or from humiliating purpose, I can't be 100% sure. Since I don't know the Clan culture to the deepest. Greetings, similar like: ".. bow down before us..", could be just a normal Claner phrase. For me a Report is a high official level, I don't use it, if I can't be 100% sure, that it was a very hard and irremissible willful act.

- Could be this tactics against the COC? I really don't know. Before some of you mentioned it, I never thought, that it could be. To tell the truth, I am bit confused, if I hear something like "in spirit of..", or "repeated".. that is not clear enough for me. Sorry! "In 2 case of 100", or "more than 0,02%"... that would be clear. So, it could be, it is against it, it could be, that is not against it... It is not really nice from me, but, I will let this job, to the Mods.. If it is a rulebrake, then they will surely close this thread, and say: "We thank you for your theoretical work, but we think it is against our COC, because: reason1, reason2, etc.." And I will accept it, of course. Still, then, I must hope, it is not.

And to @Tesunie. Since I don't know other short way. I use "Like this" many times not for really actual as "Like". Even, when I am an oppoite meaning. I will say with it, something like: "Thank you, that you take time, and read my and the following posts." / "And I thank you to your extra work, that you take on, to write a respectful answer/notion.". etc.. Sorry, if I was confusing.

I read some times your post thought, and I didn't find any part, what attacks me.. It was a clear meaning from my tactics, and some advise. The only minor failure was, that I said too, that I have no problem to lose against a stronger team (possibly, I was not clear enough.. my bad)..

But, I tell you what, have I meant, with weak teams (I played in some): Wave 1 dieing mostly, before they even reachs the closed gates, the rest opens one gate. Wave 2 is killed in half way, between the gates and Droppoint. Wave 3 trying to build some defense on the Dropzone, but they die very fast. Wave 4 drops in close crossfire the 12 enemy Mechs. It is painful, but a clear skills vs. skills. Bad lose.. nvm.. it is not case for my tactics.

My tactics is for the case, when in the same situation the winner team use for example, the chat for mean verbal attacks. But, I hope, it will never happens.


I thank you all for reading!

[Drakkith]

Quote

- Could be this tactics against the COC? I really don't know. Before some of you mentioned it, I never thought, that it could be. To tell the truth, I am bit confused, if I hear something like "in spirit of..", or "repeated".. that is not clear enough for me. Sorry! "In 2 case of 100", or "more than 0,02%"... that would be clear. So, it could be, it is against it, it could be, that is not against it... It is not really nice from me, but, I will let this job, to the Mods.. If it is a rulebrake, then they will surely close this thread, and say: "We thank you for your theoretical work, but we think it is against our COC, because: reason1, reason2, etc.." And I will accept it, of course. Still, then, I must hope, it is not.

You're refusing to play. That's 100% against the COC regardless of what the other team has or hasn't done. End of story.

Quote

My tactics is for the case, when in the same situation the winner team use for example, the chat for mean verbal attacks. But, I hope, it will never happens.

Just because the enemy team members are bad sports does not give you the right to refuse to play. You're saying, "They're being jackasses to us, so we're going to be jackasses at them". Congratulations. Everyone has broken the rules. You've accomplished absolutely nothing and contributed to wasting everyone's time.

Edited by Drakkith, 22 December 2014 - 05:26 AM.