25 replies to this topic

[Darian DelFord]

Currently I think its fair to say part of the problem with the game is the short TTK for mechs especially of the lighter chassis. Also part of the problem is heavier mechs can Alpha up to 50 to 75 points of damage reliably. This should not be taken away, however it does need to be curbed a bit. As anyone who spends any time in competitive play see's alpha is king of all. Especially with the fixes to Hit Reg that have been happening. But how to address it without completely killing the ability.

In Lore Alpha's were used as a last ditch effort to finish off an opponent. Obviously we can not do that here, so what I suggest is a build time to be able to do an alpha. Lets face it some rules just do not translate well to online gaming, BT is no exception.

My proposal is simple. The max damage of your weapon loadout is taken into acocunt. So if an Atlas has an AC 20 4 ML's and 3 SRM6's his alpha would be 76ish. We start the game with being able to alpha right off the bat. However once the free alpha is up, you will have to build up a "charge" to use anotehr one. The easiest way to do this would be a damage amount. The game already tracks your damage. So once you hit a certain % of your Max damage you can alpha again. This will encourage chain firing weapons and still hold the alpha for when you need it.

Yes I know its a bit murky and needs some oomph however the current system of Front Loaded repeatable alphas is what is hurting this game. When a mech can turn a corner and literraly have its CT cored in one shot and the second shot take him out there is a problem

At least this way, the TTK slows a tad.

Thoughts?

[Joseph Mallan]

I game like I fight. Looking for that knockout punch. I am not one who like hearing about to short of TTK. I like killing quickly. And as such I have no problem when I die fast.

Also Light Mechs are fast so they can try to avoid damage cause they DON'T have an abundance of armor and should not be able to take a beating.

[F4T 4L]

Darian DelFord, on 22 December 2014 - 05:11 AM, said:

Currently I think its fair to say part of the problem with the game is the short TTK for mechs especially of the lighter chassis.

I disagree with your premise, so your assumption "I think its fair to say" is incorrect, in my opinion.

[Darian DelFord]

F4T 4L, on 22 December 2014 - 05:24 AM, said:

I disagree with your premise, so your assumption "I think its fair to say" is incorrect, in my opinion.

Based on? :>

[F4T 4L]

Darian DelFord, on 22 December 2014 - 05:38 AM, said:

Based on? :>

Re this: "problem with the game is the short TTK for mechs especially of the lighter chassis"

#1 Wide-spread, successful, use of light-mechs at every level of the game.
#2 My personal experience of being one-shot killed two or three times in thousands of light-mech games in solo queue.

Re this: "In Lore Alpha's were used as a last ditch effort to finish off an opponent." and your proposed solution to over-used alpha.

#1 I don't care about lore, and this isnt table-top.
#2 Regardless, I personally have never pushed the alpha button. I believe the same is true for many folk (based on my experience spectating other folk).
#3 Assuming that alpha actually is a problem, what's to stop folk setting up a weapon group with everything but one small laser (or whatever), and using that instead?

Simply, the mechanism you're asking for is already in place; weapon cooldown. You want cooldown increased, others (myself included) don't.

[Xythius]

Darian DelFord, on 22 December 2014 - 05:38 AM, said:

Based on?

You said "I think it's fair to say...", meaning you're making the assumption that everyone agrees with you. He disagrees (& so do I tbh), so he's making an observation that your logic is incomplete.

The reality is, most 'mechs can pull of a strong alpha & there is already a limiting mechanic - heat/heat scaling. Take my TBR Prime(I) for example. 4 ASRM6, 4Mlas. Alpha of 76. When I do that, my heat jumps to ~70% iirc. I have the cooldown 5 mods for both weapons, so I can do it again quickly. If I do, I will shutdown & take significant damage while doing so. Yes, I probably killed my opponent, but for the tradeoff of possibly taking more damage from overheat than I would have by brawling them down after the initial alpha.

TTK can be short, but, you can't play a match without taking damage - not if you're contributing anyway. Some of my better matches have seen me nearly or fully CT cored, or maybe somewhere else within the first few mins, yet I manage to stay alive & run down 5-6 enemy over the rest of the match.

I don't want to see another limiting algorithim added to the game.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

I say set Heat Capacity to 30 for all mechs, give us true dubs and quirk any mechs/builds that need help after adjusting Heat Capacity.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

Darian DelFord, on 22 December 2014 - 05:11 AM, said:

Currently I think its fair to say part of the problem with the game is the short TTK for mechs especially of the lighter chassis. Also part of the problem is heavier mechs can Alpha up to 50 to 75 points of damage reliably. This should not be taken away, however it does need to be curbed a bit. As anyone who spends any time in competitive play see's alpha is king of all. Especially with the fixes to Hit Reg that have been happening. But how to address it without completely killing the ability.

In Lore Alpha's were used as a last ditch effort to finish off an opponent. Obviously we can not do that here, so what I suggest is a build time to be able to do an alpha. Lets face it some rules just do not translate well to online gaming, BT is no exception.

My proposal is simple. The max damage of your weapon loadout is taken into acocunt. So if an Atlas has an AC 20 4 ML's and 3 SRM6's his alpha would be 76ish. We start the game with being able to alpha right off the bat. However once the free alpha is up, you will have to build up a "charge" to use anotehr one. The easiest way to do this would be a damage amount. The game already tracks your damage. So once you hit a certain % of your Max damage you can alpha again. This will encourage chain firing weapons and still hold the alpha for when you need it.

Yes I know its a bit murky and needs some oomph however the current system of Front Loaded repeatable alphas is what is hurting this game. When a mech can turn a corner and literraly have its CT cored in one shot and the second shot take him out there is a problem

At least this way, the TTK slows a tad.

Thoughts?

i think you need to read up a bit before you try to neuter what is supposed to be one of the most powerful mechs in existence.

http://www.sarna.net...28BattleMech%29

big mechs are supposed to kill smaller mechs in lore thats what they do. an atlas is supposed to be "A 'Mech as powerful as possible, as impenetrable as possible, and as ugly and foreboding as conceivable, so that fear itself will be our ally."

"The mere sight of an Atlas had been known to make even a veteran MechWarrior break out in a cold sweat, and theoretically a single Atlas can take on and wipe out an entire battalion of Stingers in exchange for minor armor loss.^[7]"

to put that into context for you

"A battalion consists of three companies and is a large organization. It is normally composed of at least thirty-six 'Mechs plus aerospace, artillery, reconnaissance, medical, and numerous other support staff and personnel."

36 lights in mwo will have no problem butchering an atlas even if they all just have 1 small laser

TTK is already hugely inflated

Edited by Mellifluer, 22 December 2014 - 06:15 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Praetor Knight, on 22 December 2014 - 06:10 AM, said:

I say set Heat Capacity to 30 for all mechs, give us true dubs and quirk any mechs/builds that need help after adjusting Heat Capacity.

Don't forget the nerfs that came with the high heat. That was the true limiting factor of Heat on TT. Make the mech perform worse as it gets hot. Computers don't like Hot. Bring back the heat scale!

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Joseph Mallan, on 22 December 2014 - 06:13 AM, said:

Don't forget the nerfs that came with the high heat. That was the true limiting factor of Heat on TT. Make the mech perform worse as it gets hot. Computers don't like Hot. Bring back the heat scale!

Indeed, I would go as far as having the original full Heat Effects table apply, with the first avoidable shutdown at 14 heat.

To help with a slight buffer I'd have Heat Sinks each provide 0.1 Capacity where 10 gets you 1 Capacity, so that with 10 SHS or DHS we'd can get a heat spike up to 15.

Here's what I'd consider for MWO from the original table (so the effects can easily be adjusted and improved):

[3rdworld]

Praetor Knight, on 22 December 2014 - 06:25 AM, said:

Indeed, I would go as far as having the original full Heat Effects table apply, with the first avoidable shutdown at 14 heat.

To help with a slight buffer I'd have Heat Sinks each provide 0.1 Capacity where 10 gets you 1 Capacity, so that with 10 SHS or DHS we'd can get a heat spike up to 15.

Here's what I'd consider for MWO from the original table (so the effects can easily be adjusted and improved):

MWO's heat system won't work with the original binary heat numbers. In MWO vs the original, heat is generated at the moment the weapon is fired, then dissipated over time. In TT heat generation never spikes like MWO does.

You could re-write the heat system to take this into effect: Think of HS as a resource. With just 10 doubles you have 20 HS resources, and assume weapons are normalized for heat production through their CD. So firing a ML, "taps" 5 HS resources for the duration of the CD, a AC/20 taps 6 etc. If you exceed the HS total only then is heat added to your mech, which it takes an untapped HS 5-10 seconds to clear 1 excess heat.

With that type of heat system heat penalties would work, but in your system you are going to get a 30% speed reduction from firing a single ERPPC, that is only going to lead the game to low heat ballistic based builds.

[Joseph Mallan]

3rdworld, on 22 December 2014 - 07:14 AM, said:

MWO's heat system won't work with the original binary heat numbers. In MWO vs the original, heat is generated at the moment the weapon is fired, then dissipated over time. In TT heat generation never spikes like MWO does.

You could re-write the heat system to take this into effect: Think of HS as a resource. With just 10 doubles you have 20 HS resources, and assume weapons are normalized for heat production through their CD. So firing a ML, "taps" 5 HS resources for the duration of the CD, a AC/20 taps 6 etc. If you exceed the HS total only then is heat added to your mech, which it takes an untapped HS 5-10 seconds to clear 1 excess heat.

With that type of heat system heat penalties would work, but in your system you are going to get a 30% speed reduction from firing a single ERPPC, that is only going to lead the game to low heat ballistic based builds.

So the heat effects would need to be "timed" to begin after so many seconds of being OVER said threshold. You know actually Heat up the whole Mech to that temperature.

[LordMelvin]

Joseph Mallan, on 22 December 2014 - 07:17 AM, said:

So the heat effects would need to be "timed" to begin after so many seconds of being OVER said threshold. You know actually Heat up the whole Mech to that temperature.

Oh the mere idea of this makes me all warm and fuzzy inside.

A proper heat system that rewards fire discipline and punishes facerolling would make me so happy. Although we probably won't see it for the sake of Arcade Warrior Online

[3rdworld]

Joseph Mallan, on 22 December 2014 - 07:17 AM, said:

So the heat effects would need to be "timed" to begin after so many seconds of being OVER said threshold. You know actually Heat up the whole Mech to that temperature.

So push mechs to alpha, then wait to cool off vs constant firing and taking heat penalties. All the while giving comparative buffs to ballistic based builds.


Isn't that the exact opposite of trying to lower alpha strikes?

[Sigmar Sich]

About TTK, i particulary agree, it's too fast. Mech's hitpoints are same, as they was in times 8 IS vs 8 IS. Thats not enough for 12 vs 12, plus clantech, capable of bigger alphas.
I think exactly low TTK is a reason for high alphas being meta. Because if you die fast, you will try keep your time out of cover as short as possible, that means you will go for alpha as high as possible, for not to lower you damage over time. Though some may think it is okay, i believe it makes gameplay boring, especially when Mechwarrior have so much potential.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

3rdworld, on 22 December 2014 - 07:14 AM, said:

With that type of heat system heat penalties would work, but in your system you are going to get a 30% speed reduction from firing a single ERPPC, that is only going to lead the game to low heat ballistic based builds.

Well, let me take a look at a specific example in MWO, the Adder Prime. Stock it is going to run into issues, but it also due quirks once Clan mechs get their pass.

So, I'd consider giving the Arm Omnipods a quirk that reduces the heat from firing ERPPCs taking the 15 heat down to 11.25 or 12 close to a ~25% reduction, which in line with IS Quirks (actual implementation can be one ERPPC quirk at 12.5 and a second Generic Energy at 12.5 or whatever works best).

So against the table that's 11.25 out of 15.1 (14 plus the 11 DHS at 1.1) so ~74.5% of the capacity before the first override able shutdown becomes an issue if we would have those effects. Otherwise it's 11.25 out of 30 ~37.5% and two ERPPCs could be fired together for a Heat Spike of 22.5.

With 11 DHS that is a dissipation of 2.2 plus any other boost such as Cool Run, further improved from adding more DHS and dissipation quirks as necessary.

So at 2.2 dissipation a second, it would be able to comfortably fire one ERPPC every ~6 seconds without looking at further dissipation modifications, to allow the Adder Prime to be more efficient with it's stock loadout.

Builds that would be affected are those that combine weapons for a heat spike of 30+; and players would simply fire those weapons in smaller groupings instead of altogether.

Quirks can aide mechs and builds on a case by case basis where the Warhawk Prime likely wouldn't need that much to be able to handle its stock loadout and having a lower heat cap provides the opportunity to further tweak and someday remove heat scale (Ghost Heat) Penalties from the game also.

I can wait on the Heat Effects, if we can at least have the 30 heat cap!

---

As to Ballistic builds becoming the new meta, they have their niche, but I've seen much more laser and lrm combos than builds that use ballistics right now. Their weight and ammo needs can make them tough to fit with certain mechs that have the hardpoints and the projectile speeds and bullet drop can make it hard to stay on target at range compared to using lasers or LRMs.

I'd like to see them produce more dakka than they currently do by reducing damage per projectile and increasing rate of fire. I'd like to try something like this out for example:

And I am not opposed to keeping the current format for IS Ballistics where the AC/20 deals its 20 damage per shell, but if it were to stay as-is I'd like to see that be used as a means for more variety.

Where on an Atlas it will retain it's big Boom Stick form, but mount an AC/20 on a Jager or King Crab and you will have the rapid fire dakka variety instead. Both will be AC/20 class, they'd simply have different properties for firing.

And there can be more opportunities for variety to exist where there can be AC/20s that deal 10 damage per projectile for example, based on what mech is carrying the particular weapon variants. There are examples in the Lore that can be drawn upon to bring them into MWO.

Edited by Praetor Knight, 22 December 2014 - 08:55 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

3rdworld, on 22 December 2014 - 07:45 AM, said:

So push mechs to alpha, then wait to cool off vs constant firing and taking heat penalties. All the while giving comparative buffs to ballistic based builds.


Isn't that the exact opposite of trying to lower alpha strikes?

Yes it is. I am an Alpha Striker. It is the way I LIKE to fight. I hit you as hard and often as I can till you die... preferably before you kill me.

[LordMelvin]

3rdworld, on 22 December 2014 - 07:45 AM, said:

So push mechs to alpha, then wait to cool off vs constant firing and taking heat penalties. All the while giving comparative buffs to ballistic based builds.


Isn't that the exact opposite of trying to lower alpha strikes?

It would also allow people to fire continuously for longer since heat generation would be handled continuously. Chainfiring and splitting weapons into groups would allow players to maintain a continuous stream of fire since properly spacing shots would prevent heat from accumulating at all or at the very least more slowly.

The key is that Joseph's proposed system would allow for punishment of high heat, unlike our current system of 99% with no penalty at all.

[One Medic Army]

Joseph Mallan, on 22 December 2014 - 06:13 AM, said:

Don't forget the nerfs that came with the high heat. That was the true limiting factor of Heat on TT. Make the mech perform worse as it gets hot. Computers don't like Hot. Bring back the heat scale!

I would love if they added speed/maneuverability penalties for running hot. I'd love it more if they made your weapons start to diverge, or just be less than pinpoint accurate when hot.

[wanderer]

Quote

MWO's heat system won't work with the original binary heat numbers. In MWO vs the original, heat is generated at the moment the weapon is fired, then dissipated over time. In TT heat generation never spikes like MWO does.

It doesn't in the simplified 10-second turn system.

It most definitely does at the Solaris VII scale (one turn = 2.5 seconds).

And MWO is effectively even closer to "reality" than that. TTK would be an interesting mix, and even single alphas would be enough to compromise operations for some time, especially with speedy lights that sludge up when they toss 80% overheat around (hint: jump jets were meant to save your bacon then).

Proper heat penalties would be one of the biggest doses of game-changing sanity, especially if this then kicked ghost heat squarely in the jewels and out of the game- as ghost heat is the kludge fix for not having a real heat scale to begin with.

Edited by wanderer, 22 December 2014 - 11:40 AM.