12 replies to this topic

[Rhaythe]

The following is a short list of bullet point items that I believe I've learned during the Community Warfare Beta from playing as both an Inner Sphere and a Clanner pilot.

Please note - all of these bullet points are from the perspective of someone that drops in small units (IE: 2 to 4 players) or, in rarer instances, PUGs. So I'm sure I'll get flamed by 12-man groups here shortly.


Maps

• Defending Boreal Vault is too easy, whether your are an Inner Sphere or a Clan pilot. Defender has way too much of an advantage on that map.
  
• Defending Sulfurous Rift is a little tricker, but still easier than it probably should be.
  
• Attacking Boreal Vault is a pain if you're a Clan pilot and next to impossible if you are an Inner Sphere pilot with a high percentage of PUGs.
  
• Attacking Sulfurous Rift is fun, even in rough games. There is enough of a terrain difference in all 3 lanes to keep the variety up and matches interesting.
  
• There is very little to do in this asymmetric game mode. The 3 exterior generators prior to Omega helped, but it still is of the variety of "Go here, shoot this".
  
• The one turret on top of each gate is worthless except as a time sink and light-mech deterrent.

Mechs (Inner Sphere)

• Inner Sphere versus Inner Sphere is damn fun, and easily the highlight of Community Warfare so far. Unfortunately, most matches tend to be IS versus Clan for Kurita pilots.
  
• Inner Sphere mechs can kill clan mechs. In fact, they do it quite well. Unfortunately, a small-unit or PUG player is at the mercy of the matchmaker's whim.
  
• Inner Sphere mechs drop in various states of upgrade and loadout, which greatly affects the game's balance.
  
• Most Inner Sphere assault pilots appear to be terrified of clan mechs. Getting an Inner Sphere assault lance to push together with the team's mediums and heavies is next to impossible at times, and can be very costly in terms of offensive effectiveness.
  
• LRMs are almost worthless unless someone on your team runs a dedicated spotter/narc'er mech.
  
• Quirks are glorious.
  
• Clan Stormcrows pilots are terrified of the Inner Sphere AC20. Most Stormcrow pilots will pay a LOT of respect to the Yen Lo Wang or the Hunchback 4G. And rightly so. The AC20 with a few medium lasers is more than enough to slice through Stormcrow armor like soggy butter.
  
• Not so much the larger AC20 boats like the Jager and the King Crab. Those get focused immediately, reducing their threat.
  
• Inner Sphere laser weapons can match clan ER lasers, but not out of the box, and not on every mech. Modules and quirks are a must if an Inner Sphere pilot wants to out-snipe Clan pilots.
  
• Inner Sphere XL Engines are almost worthless in Community Warfare except for long-range "sniper meta" builds.
  
• Inner Sphere light mechs should be the workhorse of the Inner Sphere response... but most people don't use them. Which is a damn shame.
  
• Most Inner Sphere pilots will clamor that Clan Tech is OP (they're wrong; most clan mechs are fine, just the 3 feature overpowered mount points and/or engines).

Mechs (Clan)
Disclaimer - I have never been in a match of Clan vs Clan in CW. These points apply only to Clan vs IS matches.

• You can be very successful in Community Warfare using only Clan trial mechs
  
• Defending territory in CW from the Clan perspective, for the most part, is boring.
  
• Matchmaking times are greatly inflated when dropping as a Clan pilot in a small unit or via PUG. Inner Sphere pilot wait times seem significantly shorter.
  
• While people do use the Kit Fox, Hellbringer (probably because of ECM), and the occasional Adder in Community Warfare, most units will drop using the Holy Trinity of clan mechs.
  
• Laser vomit. Lots of it.
  
• Stormcrow pilots like to overheat. I think it tickles.
  
• It is a lot easier to move as a unit as Clan, thanks to the 80 to 99 KPH speeds of the non-swappable engines.
  
• Overheating poses very little threat to most clan mechs, as typically, the battle takes place over much greater ranges in Community Warfare. There is very little threat to be risked when overheating at ranges greater than 800 meters.
  
• Chasing Inner Sphere light mechs in a Kit Fox is infuriating.
  
• The Summoner doesn't suck. Even stock. Yet, no one uses it.
  
• The Thunderwub is terrifying when you're piloting a Timberwolf.
  
• Most Clan pilots will clamor that Inner Sphere tech is on par with Clan tech (they're wrong; quirks make IS tech on par, but too many IS pilots ignore them).

Tactics

• Blindly charging the generators does not seem to ever work in mixed-unit drops.
  
• You cannot reliably solo a generator; team fast-response lances are too quick, and dropship re-deployments too frequent. But people will try anyway.
  
• UAVs will be used; watch for them (No one does).
  
• Arty strikes are far more frequent than air strikes.
  
• Turrets always hit your legs when you're piloting a light mech. Always.

Closing Thoughts

• Community Warfare, MWO's purported "roleplaying" mode, would benefit greatly from a Stock-only queue. At that point, there would be no question that Clan mechs are overpowered - stockwise, they just are. But balance steps could be taken to make the Clan Invasion authentic to lore and balanced through gameplay.
  
• It is far more fun to play as an Inner Sphere pilot than a Clan pilot, as Clans seem to rarely attack one another (at least in the faction I joined as my alt). The shorter queue times for IS pilots is a very nice boon for playing the "old" mechs of the Inner Sphere. I almost feel bad for Clan-only pilots, as this long-awaited game mode, from their perspective, is just boring.
  
• Every side accusing the other of being Overpowered is probably a good thing - it means parity is not far away. Unfortunately, that parity is the result of something the non-forum-going community is painfully unaware of, and that's quirks. This game needs to push quirk builds fare more than it currently does, otherwise, parity will just be flashes in the pan.
  
• PUG or mix-unit groups will rarely ever be able to challenge 12-man groups until some form of easy communication is added to the game. Most PUG or pick-up players are not interested in joining your Teamspeak server.
  
• Get rid of Boreal Vault. It may have worked as a proof-of-concept beta map, but it's uninteresting, unbalanced, and the gates are way too close together for defenders to manage successful assaults with regularity. It is too easy to cover both gates at once.
  
• Make gates larger. Right now, mechs pilots are funneled in, making for easy pickings.

[oldradagast]

In general, I agree.

Here's the summary of what I've learned: CW, in its current form, is a waste of time.

First, it is literal time being wasted - waiting 15+ minutes for a match... and then having to play out a 30 minute match that is often decided 1 or 2 mech waves in - or sometimes at the drop screen when you see your 3-man + PUGS pitted against a 12 man.

Second, the game mode simply isn't any fun. It has way too much: fighting against NPC's, being funneled through kill-zones that no sane attacker would normally enter, time wasted waited for something to happen, and so on.

Heck, even the reward structure is dismal. As the attacker the other day, I managed to sneak my non-ECM mech behind enemy lines and take down one of the 3 O-generators single-handedly... of course, our PUG team still lost (gee, what a shock - PUG's losing on the attack) - but all of that damage and effort rewarded me nothing at the end of the match. No... insanely, I would have gotten more rewards if I had just milled around shooting enemy mechs vs. making that stealth run to take down a generator.

I see no reason to play CW in its current form. The maps are horrible, the game play is stale and laughably predictable, the "tactics" are basically equal to "rush the PUG-zapper in the center of Terra Therma with a murderball," the battles are heavily lop-sided in favor of the defender, and the match-making is utterly laughable (12-mans vs. PUG's... really?)

It may be Beta, but it is also broken.

[ztac]

What I have learned is that people make poor choices of decks and mech builds on the IS side then scream that clans are OP!
The scales of balance favour the IS far more than the clans though. There are some people that play IS mechs that won't be happy till they can 1 hit every clan mech going.

The clans main 'advantage' is that they are faced with a limited amount of mechs that are actually usable (by this I mean that a lot of clan mechs are awful for CW and some just awful period!). If you are forced t play the same mech all the time you should reach some kind of ability in said mech. On the IS side though you have a lot of choice and customisation and too much of a 'good thing' can maybe be your undoing as this can lead to bad builds (clans are very limited really , mostly no brainer builds appear purely because you run out of slots .. or have weight left over with all slots full so you try to use up that weight).

Lastly is the player balance , not just in numbers but in varied skill too and every ones favourite PUGS and premades!

Put all the best players in any faction and that will look like the best side!

[AlmightyAeng]

Rhaythe, on 02 January 2015 - 05:22 AM, said:

Tactics

• You cannot reliably solo a generator; team fast-response lances are too quick, and dropship re-deployments too frequent. But people will try anyway.

Disagree. Take a high DPS light with decent heat values (Ember, Huginn, FS9-A). It will reliably solo a generator in about 6-8 seconds EVERY time.

• Quote

  Turrets always hit your legs when you're piloting a light mech. Always.

Disagree here, too. Turrets always seem to two-shot one of my side torsos for an instant kill. They are the best shots on the field, lol.

Quote

• Get rid of Boreal Vault. It may have worked as a proof-of-concept beta map, but it's uninteresting, unbalanced, and the gates are way too close together for defenders to manage successful assaults with regularity. It is too easy to cover both gates at once.

Disagree. We have had very good success attacking and/or defending this map. It's about timing and making good use of the gully on alpha side.

Quote

• Make gates larger. Right now, mechs pilots are funneled in, making for easy pickings.

Disagree. Let's not make it any easier for the murder-ball strategy to just roll in. There SHOULD be a slight funneling.

Otherwise, on the rest I'd say you're pretty spot on

Edited by Ghost Badger, 02 January 2015 - 07:06 AM.

[Rhaythe]

ztac, on 02 January 2015 - 06:34 AM, said:

Put all the best players in any faction and that will look like the best side!

In my opinion, it's simply more work to be on the IS side. Clan mechs are pretty quick to get up-and-running. Add lasers, vomit. Done. IS mechs have a lot more bookwork that go along with them to get them to their peak form insofar as quirks and modules. Work equals effort, so yeah, new players will be more likely to field lesser mechs. In my worthless opinion, of course.

Ghost Badger, on 02 January 2015 - 07:05 AM, said:

Disagree. We have had very good success attacking and/or defending this map. It's about timing and making good use of the gully on alpha side.

With bigger groups, a lot of what I said becomes irrelevant - including this one, I believe. Unfortunately, timing in mixed-units and pure PUGs becomes rather trying. Just try telling an Atlas lance to push and see how well timing works.

[AlmightyAeng]

Rhaythe, on 02 January 2015 - 07:07 AM, said:

In my opinion, it's simply more work to be on the IS side. Clan mechs are pretty quick to get up-and-running. Add lasers, vomit. Done. IS mechs have a lot more bookwork that go along with them to get them to their peak form insofar as quirks and modules. Work equals effort, so yeah, new players will be more likely to field lesser mechs. In my worthless opinion, of course.

Yeah...every time I see a 4xLRM5 mech in CW, or a Jenner with a single ERLL (yeah...I saw that last night) I cringe inside.

IS mechs are sort of a bait-and-switch for new players. "Here, buy this mech for 1/3 the cost of a Clan mech! Okay...now spend 1.5 million on DHS, and half a million on Endo. Now replace all the stock weapons for a million or two. Now buy Seismic. And Radar Derp. And weapon Modules. That'll be another 18 million. Okay...you're ready to go! Don't forget to Elite that crap out or your heat values are gonna shut you down!"

Edited by Ghost Badger, 02 January 2015 - 07:10 AM.

[Basilisk222]

Rhaythe, on 02 January 2015 - 07:09 AM, said:

In my opinion, it's simply more work to be on the IS side. Clan mechs are pretty quick to get up-and-running. Add lasers, vomit. Done. IS mechs have a lot more bookwork that go along with them to get them to their peak form insofar as quirks and modules. Work equals effort, so yeah, new players will be more likely to field lesser mechs. In my worthless opinion, of course.


With bigger groups, a lot of what I said becomes irrelevant - including this one, I believe. Unfortunately, timing in mixed-units and pure PUGs becomes rather trying. Just try telling an Atlas lance to push and see how well timing works.

Clan Mechs cost on average twice as much. For less customization. Pick your poison.

EDIT: To buy, not total.

Edited by Kilgorin Strom, 02 January 2015 - 07:11 AM.

[Rhaythe]

Kilgorin Strom, on 02 January 2015 - 07:10 AM, said:

Clan Mechs cost on average twice as much. For less customization. Pick your poison.

Absolutely correct. But it's still less work to get to peak form, which means you'll see better clan mechs on average than IS mechs. Hell, like i mentioned, I was doing VERY well using just trial clan mechs.

Edited by Rhaythe, 02 January 2015 - 07:12 AM.

[AlmightyAeng]

Kilgorin Strom, on 02 January 2015 - 07:10 AM, said:

Clan Mechs cost on average twice as much. For less customization. Pick your poison.

Clan Mechs are like buying a Shiny New 90's Alienware computer. It came with all the gewgaws and wingdings and ran like a champ right out of the box. But it COST.

IS mechs are like buying a crappy empty Dell Tower and then hunting on Tiger Direct for all the right parts. You're gonna have to put some time and thought into it, but when you're finished you're going to have a beast hidden under that plain exterior.

[Basilisk222]

Each of my locust cost more than an adder in the long run though, I know the pitfalls. One thing I really liked about IS was this:

Eliting things was WAAAAAAAY cheaper.

Chassis - none of the locust ran any kind of XL, which meant kits for them were about 1.5-1.7 million each.

I needed a couple of guns, and a 190XL. The 190XL was expensive, and the upgrades etc were too. but I loved being able to strip a chassis and drop my purchases into other mechs to elite them, even if I wasn't planning on keeping those chassis when I was done.

The extra customization not only costs more, but since it does, you can kind of kludge stuff with IS equipment, which makes your life easier. It's really awesome.

Meanwhie the adder costs 21 million to elite. Yikes.

Edited by Kilgorin Strom, 02 January 2015 - 07:18 AM.

[BatWing]

I think all of the points brought on this post can be to some extent valid.

this is personal opinion, as such, really come from personal experience.

I have a clear example for you that completely changed my way to play:

I was playing with a Team.. and we fought the best Attack tactic was moving fast, flanking and "rush" generators so that in about 3 waves the Gen was down...

Now I play with another Team and out best Attack tactic is "kill 'em all" and then calmly hit the Gens. It works flawlessly . Average Attack victory scores 48 - 28, doesn t matter if is vs Clan or IS.

So, your experience really may widely vary.

Something instead no one considered yet here is that CW should be only allowed to "experienced" pilots.

Before you shoot me with your shotguns, please understand what I mean. EXPERIENCED meaning that a new payer who just installed the game should have a buffer time before being allowed to play CW, simply because he really has no clue what is trying to accomplish an trying CW out of the box will just ruin the game experience.

We had a match yesterday, in Defense.. and the Attack team later told us many were trying the game almost for the first time.

True or not and how an ELO works here or not is not my question.

Fact is this game has a steep learning curve and being smashed the way that team was yesterday is not fun for anyone.

I don t know how this could be solved but for a player who gets the first time in CW should be a really big DISCLOSURE MESSAGE:
YOU ARE ENTERING A VERY DIFFERENT GAME MODE, REQUIRING SKILLED MECHS AND PILOTS, ARE YOU REALLY SURE YOU WANT TO CONTINUE?

lol.. doesn t have that verbiage, but that should b the sense. If you agree, then you KNOW you will be badly stomped if you do not have the "good mechs" an you are not "good enough".

[AlmightyAeng]

Kilgorin Strom, on 02 January 2015 - 07:17 AM, said:

Each of my locust cost more than an adder in the long run though, I know the pitfalls. One thing I really liked about IS was this:

Eliting things was WAAAAAAAY cheaper.

Chassis - none of the locust ran any kind of XL, which meant kits for them were about 1.5-1.7 million each.

I needed a couple of guns, and a 190XL. The 190XL was expensive, and the upgrades etc were too. but I loved being able to strip a chassis and drop my purchases into other mechs to elite them, even if I wasn't planning on keeping those chassis when I was done.

The extra customization not only costs more, but since it does, you can kind of kludge stuff with IS equipment, which makes your life easier. It's really awesome.

Meanwhie the adder costs 21 million to elite. Yikes.

True, but that means you only effectively have ONE of those 3 IS mechs to pilot, because they share an engine and equipment.

With your Clan mechs, you have THREE viable options to take and use (as in CW, for instance).

Granted, it's the trend that a single IS variant of a Chassis usually stands out above the rest. With Omnipods, you could make most of your Clan Mechs identical if you wanted.

[Rhaythe]

BatWing, on 02 January 2015 - 07:32 AM, said:

Something instead no one considered yet here is that CW should be only allowed to "experienced" pilots.

Not a horrible idea, really. But considering CW is going to eventually be a selling point for this game when/if it hits steam, might be difficult. The ENTIRE new-player experience needs an overhaul.

Ghost Badger, on 02 January 2015 - 07:36 AM, said:

Granted, it's the trend that a single IS variant of a Chassis usually stands out above the rest. With Omnipods, you could make most of your Clan Mechs identical if you wanted.

Booned by the fact that you can take the best parts of all 3 chassis units and leave the rest at home. Part of the reason the Holy Clan Trinity is what it is.