98 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

Wesxander, on 28 December 2014 - 07:07 PM, said:

Let's ignore clan weapons like more ammo per tonnage, not mentioned above clan ultras get 45 to 50 more percent ammo per ton than IS.

I laugh every time I see this....

Why can't people get educated about game mechanics?

It's on the trial mechs, you can try it for yourself. Clan ACs have the same ammo ratios as IS ACs, but they need to fire multiple rounds to deal the same damage.

Thus, cAC5 is 3 rounds per 5 damage, isAC is 1 round to 5 damage. 90-30 ratio is the same.

[Yokaiko]

Wesxander, on 28 December 2014 - 07:07 PM, said:

Let's ignore clan weapons like more ammo per tonnage, not mentioned above clan ultras get 45 to 50 more percent ammo per ton than IS

Let ignore burst fire completely. That AC20 gets 7 shots a ton, a clan UAC twenty gets 35 because it fire FIVE shots pre trigger. Its the same.

Wesxander, on 28 December 2014 - 07:07 PM, said:

Let's ignore superior heatsinks.

Lets ignore at least 20% more heat generated......more like 30% in most cases

Wesxander, on 28 December 2014 - 07:07 PM, said:

Let's ignore superior XL engine design.

Lets ignore that you are stuck with it, so you have no less than 5 mechs that are basically a joke because they go very fast but don't have the space to do anything I would call a decent build.

Wesxander, on 28 December 2014 - 07:07 PM, said:

Let's ignore clan targeting computer.

Really?

Wesxander, on 28 December 2014 - 07:07 PM, said:

Let's ignore LRM's that fire like SRM's.

Lets ignore streamfire, AMS murders clan missiles AND they do a LOT less damage .....from a low damage base....under 180m

Wesxander, on 28 December 2014 - 07:07 PM, said:

In fact let's ignore the weapon the IS used to turn back the clans called gauss rifle has intentionally been nerfed to charge and fire type weapon (its supposed to fire slower than ac 20 but instead we get this got hold the charge crap and time the shot) which is to hard to do when your screen is shaking from constant hits.

All of the guass plus PPC whiners That isn't a clan issue, that is the players whining for like a year and a half.

Wesxander, on 28 December 2014 - 07:07 PM, said:

Let's ignore clans are playing in Team speak and ending up getting CW games against mostly IS pugs.

Personal issue. get on a public TS and you can be on TS as well.

Wesxander, on 28 December 2014 - 07:07 PM, said:

Their weapons superior across the board and then getting defense missions with turrets and dropships when they are on the offense.

Not really but ok.

Wesxander, on 28 December 2014 - 07:07 PM, said:

Then you got some their players talking about how bad ass they are. Some these guys would be freaking hard pressed to play in PERSON tournaments where no 3 rd party programs of any kind would be allowed.

You are suggesting that the clanners are botting? Or what?

[Andi Nagasia]

All this Above ^
as well as,

Wesxander, on 28 December 2014 - 07:07 PM, said:

Also whoever talking about LTE's that is not 3055 tech. Your talking 3060 or 3065 there not sure why it was even brought up but get the time line right.

First off LFE where developed and ready as Experimental Tech in 3052-53,
as Fed Com had them as such, also the Wolfs Dragoons had them as early as 3053,
they Officially came out as Standard Tech in 3062, but they existed for 10 years before,
only being used for Spec OPS during the Early part of the Clan Invasion,

also common soldiers didnt have access to modifying their mechs,
only special Mech teams where able to do so and had access to such,
so all MWO Pilots could be considered Special Mech teams,
so we could have access to LFE as early as 3053,

[Golden Vulf]

Andi Nagasia, on 28 December 2014 - 07:24 PM, said:

All this Above ^
as well as,



First off LFE where developed and ready as Experimental Tech in 3052-53,
as Fed Com had them as such, also the Wolfs Dragoons had them as early as 3053,
they Officially came out as Standard Tech in 3062, but they existed for 10 years before,
only being used for Spec OPS during the Early part of the Clan Invasion,

also common soldiers didnt have access to modifying their mechs,
only special Mech teams where able to do so and had access to such,
so all MWO Pilots could be considered Special Mech teams,
so we could have access to LFE as early as 3053,

I am perfectly fine with Inner Sphere getting LFE slightly early even though only Wolf's Dragoons had them before 3059 because they personally funded the research and they were the only ones allowed to purchase them.

But I want clan second line battlemechs like the Kodiak, and full omni-mech customization, as well as the advanced clan weapons like the Assault Gauss rifles, and heavy lasers. The locked components is only for mech construction. An omnimech can have its engine and structure modified the same way an Inner Sphere batlemech can.

Restore clan Er PPCs to 15 damage, and release Inner Sphere PPC capacitors as equipment since that buffs the equipped PPC damage by 5.

The advanced equipment available post clan invasion balances the two tech bases out, so we could reign in some of these ridiculous IS quirks.

[Tesunie]

Golden Vulf, on 28 December 2014 - 07:43 PM, said:

I am perfectly fine with Inner Sphere getting LFE slightly early even though only Wolf's Dragoons had them before 3059 because they personally funded the research and they were the only ones allowed to purchase them.

But I want clan second line battlemechs like the Kodiak, and full omni-mech customization, as well as the advanced clan weapons like the Assault Gauss rifles, and heavy lasers. The locked components is only for mech construction. An omnimech can have its engine and structure modified the same way an Inner Sphere batlemech can.

Restore clan Er PPCs to 15 damage, and release Inner Sphere PPC capacitors as equipment since that buffs the equipped PPC damage by 5.

The advanced equipment available post clan invasion balances the two tech bases out, so we could reign in some of these ridiculous IS quirks.

Before they add in second line non-omni clan battlemechs, they need to consider how to implement them into the game in a fair and balanced manner. Otherwise, I'd be all for them. However, I'll leave the "unreasonable compromises" alone for now.

Technically, all battlemechs wouldn't have any hardpoints and have unlimited weapon customizations by lore, but you had best be little millionaires and royal princes to be able to afford even even the most basic of changes. This would limit all customization to nothing for battlemechs then due to cost conditions. (Also, we'd have to consider maintenance costs and repair and rearm if we go this route, so you'd only be able to buy, use and maintain probably only one mech per player.) Omni-mechs would/should be able to customize their payloads, and even do so between battles, but at the cost of having everything else (including armor) hardwired and unable to be altered. If anything other than designated pod space is altered, then those omni-mechs would become standard Battlemechs, and become expensive to customize, maintain, etc. (AKA: So NO. A Clan Omni-mech could NOT freely customize it's engine, structure OR even allocate armor (or even add on more armor) onto your mechs. At least not without remove your Omni-mech abilities.)

Clan ERPPCs actually DO 15 points of damage. They deal 10 points pin point, and 2.5 damage to each component to the side of the one hit. This was done for "game balance". Unless you wish to remove your whole ability to target as we do and add in random modifiers on where you hit like it would in TT, lore and the novels.

I also believe, seen as it's only 3050 at this time in the timeline, that the advanced tech you mention is not invented yet. Clans haven't created any heavy lasers (unless you are going by he old designation, unto which a "heavy laser" is just your typical Large Laser), etc.

As far as quirks go, please don't forget that the Clan mechs are coming up next for the quirk pass. The Thor, Koshie and Blackhawk have already received some preliminary quirks...

Edited by Tesunie, 28 December 2014 - 08:24 PM.

[Golden Vulf]

People often get confused with the tabletop rules. The thing about omnimechs, every omnimech is unique. Even the tech manual has an example of someone creating a new Executioner omnimech and deciding what structure it has. It's not the same as there being a standard Centurion AL or AH.

If Billy decides he wants to customize his Timberwolf, he uses the mech constrution rules to design its new primary configuration from the ground up, and then locks the components when he is happy with it. Then Billy's alternate configurations must have the same structure, engine, internal heatsinks, etc, he chose for his Timberwolf's primary configuration.

If you are playing in an ongoing campaign, you would have to spend resources or warchest points for this process. Outside of campaign play, you probably would just stick to default configurations.

Basically you go to your tech, and tell him what you want your primary configuration to look like, and he changes your omnimech after getting the materials. Then he informs you how much free pod space you have, and you can decide your primary loadout and any alternate configs after that.

So I tell my techs that I want them to rip open my Stormcrow's xl engine and slot in the three extra heatsinks it has room for, and now every single configuration of my stormcrow has to have those 3 internal engine heatsinks, but it is still an omnimech. It is not a standard Stormcrow. I have yet to see an Inner Sphere mechwarrior piloting a standard Battlemech outside of trial mechs.

Edited by Golden Vulf, 28 December 2014 - 10:07 PM.

[Manei Domini Krigg]

Wendigo Vendetta, on 28 December 2014 - 04:46 PM, said:

In CW I thought that Clan Mechs were overpowered.
bla bla bla...

LOL WHAT?!! You just need to deal 2-3k damage! This is simple. Use meta cfgs!





ALL THIS was DEFINDED! So whats wrong with... YOU?!

P.S.: Im NOT a perfect fighter. Im mech enginer!

Edited by Krigg, 28 December 2014 - 09:34 PM.

[Thorqemada]

Edited by Thorqemada, 28 December 2014 - 09:45 PM.

[Manei Domini Krigg]

Clann heavys run fast? Shot their LEGS! First at their rush - stop them.

My meta-mechs run 80+ and deal 18-20 dps by cannons at 100-500 m so i can break Timbers leg for 5-15 sec (long when he use JJ) and switch next.

Edited by Krigg, 28 December 2014 - 09:55 PM.

[TripleEhBeef]

As much as I love stepping on the wreckage of shiny new Mad Cats in my IS rustbuckets, I'll admit that Clan mechs did get the short end of the stick in a few areas in terms of balance.

I think ACs and LRMs are ok as they stand. You trade front loaded damage for DPS and less weight. I wouldn't go further then speeding up the "burst speed" (decreasing the time between shots in a burst while still keeping overall cooldown the same) on ACs if PGI decided there was an issue.

However, I would be fine with Clan lasers getting either a duration or heat buff, not to the levels of IS lasers, but to help them put their damage down a bit more consistently at optimal ranges.

I for one do not fear Clan laser boats. It's easy enough to spread the damage, close to your optimal, and then melt the Clanner down while he sits through shutdown after shutdown. I still want IS to be the better knife fighters in that area, but make the Clans a bit better at laying down the pain at range.

Or they could bump Clan DHS from the normal 1.4x to 1.5x or 1.6x multipliers. That would ease the heat issues a little bit without having to make another round of weapon rebalances.

[Tesunie]

Golden Vulf, on 28 December 2014 - 09:26 PM, said:

People often get confused with the tabletop rules. The thing about omnimechs, every omnimech is unique. Even the tech manual has an example of someone creating a new Executioner omnimech and deciding what structure it has. It's not the same as there being a standard Centurion AL or AH.

If Billy decides he wants a Timberwolf, he designs its primary configuration from the ground up, and then locks the components when he is happy with it. Then Billy's alternate configurations must have the same structure he chose for his Timberwolf's primary configuration.

How we got the omnimechs on MWO, Our Timberwolf Prime, S, and C are all three separate omnimechs, instead of a single omnimech with a switchable configuration.

They already broke the rules by allowing us to adjust the amount of armor on omnimechs. That is supposed to be locked too. And having you're Atlas DDC's standard structure ripped out and replaced by a satellite-facility-created endo steel structure is pure insanity given Inner Sphere supply lines and logistics.

Basically you go to your tech, and tell him what you want your primary configuration to look like, and he builds it after getting the materials. Then he informs you how much free pod space you have, and you can decide alternate loadouts after that.

So I tell my techs that I want them to rip open my Stormcrow's xl engine and slot in the three extra heatsinks it has room for, and now every single configuration of my stormcrow has to have those 3 internal engine heatsinks, but it is still an omnimech. It is not a standard Stormcrow. I have yet to see an Inner Sphere mechwarrior piloting a standard Battlemech outside of trial mechs.

And locking the Timberwolf S jump jets is a flagrant disregard for the rules, but we all know it was done out of balance.

Let me help with a resource for you: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Main_Page

More specifically: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/OmniMech

Quote

Advantages

The OmniMech flexibility has many advantages. The modular construction allows MechWarriors to customize their machine's weapon loadout to suit their own skills and preference, and suit specific tactical or environmental needs as required. Where a BattleMech of comparable weight is often designed and built for a specific role, an OmniMech can serve as a direct-fire combatant one day, and a missile boat the next.^[25] A single 'Mech capable of performing the role of four frees up significant logistical space and mass during a campaign, assuming the OmniMech is repairable after each mission.^[28]
Though not solely created for modular weapon loadouts, the OmniMech design greatly **** repair and construction. If a weapon Pod is damaged, it can be quickly detached and replaced with another while the original is repaired. If certain weapons or ammunition are unavailable, alternates can be easily substituted. Once their modular weaponry and equipment is removed, the empty bays provide better access to repair the chassis. Damaged components such as arms and legs can be easily repaired in half the time it takes for common BattleMechs, and often with less experienced technicians able perform such tasks.^[25] OmniMech technology also greatly **** salvage. Even if an enemy OmniMech is virtually destroyed, an intact OmniPod can be detached and reattached to a functional Omni just as quickly and easily as if it was factory fresh, satisfying the Clans' overriding desire to avoid waste.
OmniTechnology has also been used to bridge the technological gap between the Clans and the Inner Sphere. While Inner Sphere and Clan components are generally mutually incompatible, the Inner Sphere began reverse-engineering Clan OmniTechnology after the Battle of Luthien, and adapted their technology to the OmniPod interface. Inner Sphere and Clan Omnis can mount either Inner Sphere, Clan OmniPods, or both interchangeably.^[29]

Disadvantages

Despite their benefits in flexibility and maintenance, OmniMechs have distinct limitations in regard to cost and logistics. OmniMechs are not fully modular. An OmniMech's structural components (its engine, internal structure, armor and any equipment installed on the base chassis of OmniMech) are "hard-wired" and cannot be modified outside of a total redesign of the 'Mech.^[30] While customization of these components is theoretically possible in the field, it is avoided as it hard-wires all the 'Mechs components and effectively transforms the OmniMech into a standard BattleMech. While they can be considered structural components, the lower-arm and hand actuators are themselves Pod-mounted and easily removed to provide additional Pod Space in the arms. However, the mounting points for them in the arms are also utilized by larger bore weaponry such as Gauss Rifles, Autocannons, and PPCs, so the lower-arm and hand must be removed to carry these weapon types on OmniMech arms, hampering the close-combat abilities of these configurations.^[8]
With further regard to costs, even OmniMechs constructed from standard materials are more expensive than comparable BattleMechs of similar weight to both construct and field. While the initial invasion gave the impression that Clan toumans consisted solely of OmniMechs, even they can only afford to outfit their front-line units with them, with their so-called second-line forces generally fielding more cost effective standard BattleMechs, albeit utilizing superior Clan technology or old Star League designs.^[31]
The modular attachment points to mount OmniMech weaponry and equipment (equipment constructed in an OmniMech Pod) renders such equipment incompatible with standard BattleMechs. Even for identical classes and brands of equipment, only the ammunition can be used interchangeably. Adding or removing the Pod connections is possible but adds additional time to repairs. If weaponry and equipment are mounted on an OmniMech without an OmniPod, this equipment is fixed. For mixed units of BattleMechs and OmniMechs this adds an artificial separation and duplication in supply chains and logistics for spare parts.^[29]

They did not "specially create" each Omnimech for each mechwarrior upon their given standards. What they did was they made the Chassis, in example, a Timberwolf. It would always have a primary configuration that was universal across all Timberwolves. They determined how much space was "pod space", which could be reconfigured to new patterns. There were general configurations (such as A, B, C, D, etc) that were recognized and commonly used. Beyond the commonly recognized configurations, one could also customize their pod space as they pleased instead of following a preset configuration.

MW:O had to make many decisions and changes to TT Battletech to make it work as a first person shooter styled game. Not all TT mechanics will translate well into a tactical, real time, shooter style game. Then, on top of that, some things had to be changed for the sake of game balance.

I feel that PGI has done a fairly well done job trying to interpret the TT rules, while also trying to maintain some lore within the game. They may not have gotten "everything" right, but I appreciate the effort on their part.

[Yokaiko]

Tesunie, on 28 December 2014 - 09:47 PM, said:

Let me help with a resource for you: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Main_Page

More specifically: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/OmniMech




They did not "specially create" each Omnimech for each mechwarrior upon their given standards. What they did was they made the Chassis, in example, a Timberwolf. It would always have a primary configuration that was universal across all Timberwolves. They determined how much space was "pod space", which could be reconfigured to new patterns. There were general configurations (such as A, B, C, D, etc) that were recognized and commonly used. Beyond the commonly recognized configurations, one could also customize their pod space as they pleased instead of following a preset configuration.

MW:O had to make many decisions and changes to TT Battletech to make it work as a first person shooter styled game. Not all TT mechanics will translate well into a tactical, real time, shooter style game. Then, on top of that, some things had to be changed for the sake of game balance.

I feel that PGI has done a fairly well done job trying to interpret the TT rules, while also trying to maintain some lore within the game. They may not have gotten "everything" right, but I appreciate the effort on their part.

Wait you are being serious?

[Manei Domini Krigg]

Not only wine prayer. Show them light-tunnel with your 2-3k damage!

Edited by Krigg, 28 December 2014 - 10:06 PM.

[Tesunie]

Yokaiko, on 28 December 2014 - 09:57 PM, said:

Wait you are being serious?

Was there something wrong with my information? I can bring references directly from the TT rule books if desired instead. So far I've found Sarna to be fairly accurate.

Or is there some other question on what I said instead after my technical information?

[Mcgral18]

Yokaiko, on 28 December 2014 - 09:57 PM, said:

Wait you are being serious?

Aside from armour allocation/limits and hardpoints, PGI implemented Omnimechs fairly accurately.

It's just that in MWO, Battlemechs are far superior, between hardpoint inflation and complete customisation.

[Tesunie]

Mcgral18, on 28 December 2014 - 10:10 PM, said:

complete customisation.

So Mechlab is OP, right?



Technically, each type of mech (omni and basic) have their own advantages and disadvantages in this game. IS have more advantages in basic customization. Clans have fewer base options, but can change out their hardpoints (which is something IS mechs can not do).

It's all in what you want to do with the mech, and how you want to do it. Mixing hardpoints can be a huge advantage (especially when leveling mechs up). One such example, having any Kit Fox you get be able to use ECM, compared to only the Raven 3L out of the entire Raven line. Or have any Stormcrow be able to field SRMs, or mix and match missile hardpoints with laser or even ballistic hardpoints... (Also prevents the grind of "the bad variant" so you can master "the good one".)

Each have flexibility in certain areas, which does help present strengths and weaknesses to each mech system and each method of customization. How you use each customization system to fill in your strengths will make each system vary on how well they work for you. Right now, people are more use to IS customization still, and often think of the Omni mechs as "what should I do with the Prime variant" without considering that they can even change their hardpoints.

[Yokaiko]

Mcgral18, on 28 December 2014 - 10:10 PM, said:

Aside from armour allocation/limits and hardpoints, PGI implemented Omnimechs fairly accurately.

It's just that in MWO, Battlemechs are far superior, between hardpoint inflation and complete customisation.

Mcgral18, on 28 December 2014 - 10:10 PM, said:

Aside from armour allocation/limits and hardpoints, PGI implemented Omnimechs fairly accurately.

It's just that in MWO, Battlemechs are far superior, between hardpoint inflation and complete customisation.

Yeah one glaring thing there, the fact that Battlemechs are neary open ended and Omnimechs are:
1) heavily restricted
2) ergonomically difficult
3) way to hot.

......I also sat through every generation of band-aid .....I started just after the first mlas nerf, the one we are still sitting with.

The issue is pinpoint convergence, but I digress

The fact is that the clans are way WAY nerfed down.

So in building an Omni its a constant battle for stopping power, DPS means nothing if you are eating 70 points of damage the second you break cover.

Balanced? Meh its the same crap
mlas a problem? add heat
Guass a problem nerf it! (and it has velocity, crit damage, its USED to not be 100% explosion like ammo, the charge etc)
guass + PPC (oh noes)
Now its WAAAAAAAAA clans have to much range
..and (ironically) ER-PPC to stronk!

I agree though, I went back to IS mechs to try out the Crab, holy crap its a Direwale with a lower profile....with quad UACs its frigging glorious. Battle mechs are generally better with the exception of the Stormcrow and Timberwolf which are the two that have the pod space, and nothing rediculous hardwired (looking at you Warhawk heatsink torso).
PGI in both their implementation of band-**** (hi! ghost heat) and rigid adherence to stock mechs really shafted Warhawk. The disaster that is Gargoyle? 21.5 tons on an 85 tonner.....that is what you get AND its a ton and a half short of ferro.

Battlemechs are actually better once you get over the tasty loadout, I ran into that with Mad Dog is SHOULD be good, it should be godly.
.....man I hate that mech I couldn't even make myself clear all of the basics out.

Tesunie, on 28 December 2014 - 10:56 PM, said:

So Mechlab is OP, right?

Actually yes, we pointed it out that they may want to get all of the systems online before they turn us lose with the mechlab.

They weren't trying to hear that.

......which was three generations of changes before the game ever went "live"

Edited by Yokaiko, 28 December 2014 - 11:06 PM.

[Golden Vulf]

Tesunie, on 28 December 2014 - 09:47 PM, said:

paraphrased: stuff on Sarna, though seemed to miss the part on the web page that actually said omnimechs could be customized.

When you customize an omnimech, you follow the same rules for construction.

Here are the rules for construction:

http://www.sarna.net...ign_the_Chassis

The components only become hard locked after you have designed the new Base configuration.

Feel free to get a copy (I don't advocate torrent downloading, but you are your own captain) of Strategic Operations where the only penalty to customizing an omnimech is stated as lowering its "quality rating," and tells you that customizing an omnimech follows the rules for construction presented in Tech Manual. Tech manual has pretty much the same info on Sarna, perhaps a little more detail.

This is already in the game for Inner Sphere mechs.

An Atlas DDC that has had it's AC 20 replaced with 2 LBX 10s and refitted with endo steel structure and double heat sinks is not a standard DDC! It is a complete redesign that follows the same rules for mech construction that an Omnimech does, it just never gets any alternate configurations.

ps. The tabletop rule books are kind of crappy, there is no comprehensive set of rules, once you get going trying to figure something out, they tell you to find the rest of the rules in another book.

You need all these to really play and settle rules disputes at the table:

Total Warfare
Tactical Operations
Strategic Operations
Tech Manual (if you don't download Solaris Skunk Werks to do your work for you)
Total Chaos (not needed but highly recommended for the Chaos Campaign rules)

And you'll probably find yourself using optional rules and making some home rules.
In the game I run I use the floating crits rule from Tac ops, and I allow Ultra ACs to be unjammed the same way Rotary ACs can be unjammed (a whole turn of not firing any weapons and not moving faster than a walk).

Edited by Golden Vulf, 28 December 2014 - 11:58 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Mcgral18, on 28 December 2014 - 07:16 PM, said:

I laugh every time I see this....

Why can't people get educated about game mechanics?

It's on the trial mechs, you can try it for yourself. Clan ACs have the same ammo ratios as IS ACs, but they need to fire multiple rounds to deal the same damage.

Thus, cAC5 is 3 rounds per 5 damage, isAC is 1 round to 5 damage. 90-30 ratio is the same.

Yeah, lets toss in the fact that Clan UACs also jam a hellva lot, rendering them useless for several periods of random time throughout the match....

[kapusta11]

Nice try OP, nice try.