187 replies to this topic

[Alan Davion]

Dingo Red, on 27 November 2015 - 03:54 PM, said:

How on earth are people getting Gundam out of this? Apparently Japanese samurai cosmetic design automatically makes something a Gundam? Their are plenty of humanoid 'mechs in BattleTech- that was kind of the point of a lot of them. And one of BattleTech's greatest lures is the sheer variety of its designs. I mean gosh, as someone who appreciates both areas of design I can say that really makes me scratch my head. If I wanted to play generic mech blocks I'd go play Front Mission or something

If anything the Hatamoto-Chi would be a great option because it has a unique visual character, and we all know Alex would give it a sweet treatment. Much more marketable too.

It's probably the head-crest, bears a distinct resemblance to most Gundam head-crests.

[Strum Wealh]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 November 2015 - 03:19 PM, said:

Only way I want to see it in is original versions without the stupid silly Gundam sword. The stinking Pacific Rim Black Jaeger... er... Knight is already more anime than I really want. Samurai Untraman Gundam? Pass.

Rather see the Thug that the Chi is a direct copy of, instead.

Dingo Red, on 27 November 2015 - 03:54 PM, said:

How on earth are people getting Gundam out of this? Apparently Japanese samurai cosmetic design automatically makes something a Gundam? Their are plenty of humanoid 'mechs in BattleTech- that was kind of the point of a lot of them. And one of BattleTech's greatest lures is the sheer variety of its designs. I mean gosh, as someone who appreciates both areas of design I can say that really makes me scratch my head. If I wanted to play generic mech blocks I'd go play Front Mission or something

If anything the Hatamoto-Chi would be a great option because it has a unique visual character, and we all know Alex would give it a sweet treatment. Much more marketable too.

The crest on the Hatamoto's head could be seen as similar to the "V-Fin" communication antenna (a feature found on nearly every Gundam-type MS; the EZ-8 from 08th MS Team is the only notable exception that I can think of, off-hand), though the V-Fin itself is arguably an homage to the maedate (frontal crest(s)) of the kabuto (a type of Japanese helmet).





Any large, relatively-lean (a design choice commonly used to imply "high-performance" speed & agility/maneuverability) humanoid mecha with a maedate/v-fin on the front of its head and a sword/machete/etc-type weapon (which is a thing in BattleTech... starting in 3058) is evidently considered to be "a Gundam" by some.

[Bishop Steiner]

Strum Wealh, on 28 November 2015 - 06:57 AM, said:

The crest on the Hatamoto's head could be seen as similar to the "V-Fin" communication antenna (a feature found on nearly every Gundam-type MS; the EZ-8 from 08th MS Team is the only notable exception that I can think of, off-hand), though the V-Fin itself is arguably an homage to the maedate (frontal crest(s)) of the kabuto (a type of Japanese helmet).





Any large, relatively-lean (a design choice commonly used to imply "high-performance" speed & agility/maneuverability) humanoid mecha with a maedate/v-fin on the front of its head and a sword/machete/etc-type weapon (which is a thing in BattleTech... starting in 3058) is evidently considered to be "a Gundam" by some.

Am rather aware of the details of a Kabuto. And it still is abjectly SILLY looking in Battletech, just as "mech swords" make ZERO sense, since even if the alloys were strong enough not to break (then why not make the mechs armor out of it??? And then, ya know, break more swords?) swords are singularly the worst melee weapon for actually damaging heavy armor (Well, or at least tied with "claws").

The use of Hatchets, Clubs and Maces has some logic behind it, and even chain whips I could see a small amount of use (though compared to just punching a mech, not all that great for actual damage...unless it was a ball and chain... in which case the chai would be hard pressed to endure the force of too many impacts).

Basically even though it became a "thing" during the years that FASA was desperately trying to stay in business, and the Anime boom of the 90s meant they went all yugioh, doesn't mean it was a GOOD idea. Or even remotely fit the actual game setting.

And yes, that goes for pretty much any mech that looks like it could have been featured in Power Rangers.

Anime is cool as heck and has it's place.... but Evangelions would seem awfully silly in Btech, yes? And so do Gundams and even Labors, overall. Function over flash.

Yes, battletech eventually embraced those concepts, in desperation, and later license holders kept the dreck coming.... you know in TV terms, it's called "Jumping the Shark"? And that is usually not a kind reference.

The Star Wars prequels are a "Thing" too.... doesn't mean they weren't utter crap.

[Alan Davion]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 November 2015 - 08:58 AM, said:

Am rather aware of the details of a Kabuto. And it still is abjectly SILLY looking in Battletech, just as "mech swords" make ZERO sense, since even if the alloys were strong enough not to break (then why not make the mechs armor out of it??? And then, ya know, break more swords?) swords are singularly the worst melee weapon for actually damaging heavy armor (Well, or at least tied with "claws").

The use of Hatchets, Clubs and Maces has some logic behind it, and even chain whips I could see a small amount of use (though compared to just punching a mech, not all that great for actual damage...unless it was a ball and chain... in which case the chai would be hard pressed to endure the force of too many impacts).

Basically even though it became a "thing" during the years that FASA was desperately trying to stay in business, and the Anime boom of the 90s meant they went all yugioh, doesn't mean it was a GOOD idea. Or even remotely fit the actual game setting.

And yes, that goes for pretty much any mech that looks like it could have been featured in Power Rangers.

Anime is cool as heck and has it's place.... but Evangelions would seem awfully silly in Btech, yes? And so do Gundams and even Labors, overall. Function over flash.

Yes, battletech eventually embraced those concepts, in desperation, and later license holders kept the dreck coming.... you know in TV terms, it's called "Jumping the Shark"? And that is usually not a kind reference.

The Star Wars prequels are a "Thing" too.... doesn't mean they weren't utter crap.

Except the EVA's tower over all other Mecha, the sole exception being the Big O, and maybe the Getter Robos. All of those mecha are easily ten or more times larger than the largest Battletech mechs... Even the Super Heavies.

Most Gundam Mecha are only slightly taller than most Battlemechs, notable exceptions include the "Psycho" Gundams and the "Neo Zeong", but those mecha are probably the equivalents of Super Heavies in BT.

Labors are probably the closest thing the anime industry has to mimicing the Battletech mechs, or vice versa, I'm not sure. Labors probably fit somewhere in the Protomech size range, as they're certainly bigger than any Clan or IS power armor, but they're not big enough to be even the smallest of Light Mechs.

[Bishop Steiner]

Alan Davion, on 28 November 2015 - 10:20 AM, said:

Except the EVA's tower over all other Mecha, the sole exception being the Big O, and maybe the Getter Robos. All of those mecha are easily ten or more times larger than the largest Battletech mechs... Even the Super Heavies.

Most Gundam Mecha are only slightly taller than most Battlemechs, notable exceptions include the "Psycho" Gundams and the "Neo Zeong", but those mecha are probably the equivalents of Super Heavies in BT.

Labors are probably the closest thing the anime industry has to mimicing the Battletech mechs, or vice versa, I'm not sure. Labors probably fit somewhere in the Protomech size range, as they're certainly bigger than any Clan or IS power armor, but they're not big enough to be even the smallest of Light Mechs.

Actually AV98 Ingrams stand 8 meters, which would fit the 20-25 ton range in Battletech. Of course..in Patlabor, they only weigh 6 metric tons, so there's that. Technically too tall for a Protomech, but about the right mass.

Point's not the size, it's about the style. The ultra stylized, sleek, ballerina Mech look of a lot of anime does not fit the universe aesthetic of Battletech. Dougram, Macross, Crusher Joe, VOTOMs all have an industrial feel to them, comparatively, that these other styles simply don't fit well.

[Impyrium]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 November 2015 - 11:55 AM, said:

Point's not the size, it's about the style. The ultra stylized, sleek, ballerina Mech look of a lot of anime does not fit the universe aesthetic of Battletech. Dougram, Macross, Crusher Joe, VOTOMs all have an industrial feel to them, comparatively, that these other styles simply don't fit well.

That's arguable Bishop, considering much of the original art (although not the best of quality..) had a combo between sleek and industrial humanoid designs. I don't really consider the Hatamoto-Chi sleek anyway, if you removed the crest and other samurai themed armour pieces it's not all that different to any other BattleTech humanoid.

Anyway, if the H-Chi managed to find it's way to BattleTech I think we all know it'd turn out like this:



And I reckon that's pretty industrial. Although I'd still prefer your own design just for its character.

[Strum Wealh]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 November 2015 - 08:58 AM, said:

Am rather aware of the details of a Kabuto. And it still is abjectly SILLY looking in Battletech, just as "mech swords" make ZERO sense, since even if the alloys were strong enough not to break (then why not make the mechs armor out of it??? And then, ya know, break more swords?) swords are singularly the worst melee weapon for actually damaging heavy armor (Well, or at least tied with "claws").

The use of Hatchets, Clubs and Maces has some logic behind it, and even chain whips I could see a small amount of use (though compared to just punching a mech, not all that great for actual damage...unless it was a ball and chain... in which case the chai would be hard pressed to endure the force of too many impacts).

Basically even though it became a "thing" during the years that FASA was desperately trying to stay in business, and the Anime boom of the 90s meant they went all yugioh, doesn't mean it was a GOOD idea. Or even remotely fit the actual game setting.

And yes, that goes for pretty much any mech that looks like it could have been featured in Power Rangers.

Anime is cool as heck and has it's place.... but Evangelions would seem awfully silly in Btech, yes? And so do Gundams and even Labors, overall. Function over flash.

Yes, battletech eventually embraced those concepts, in desperation, and later license holders kept the dreck coming.... you know in TV terms, it's called "Jumping the Shark"? And that is usually not a kind reference.

The Star Wars prequels are a "Thing" too.... doesn't mean they weren't utter crap.

The swords are probably made of the same general materials as 'Mech armor, possibly with some additional reinforcement along the edge of the blade (which I wouldn't expect to actually be sharpened).
IMO, 'Mech swords would less along the lines of the rapier (e.g. thrusting implements designed to target joints and seams) or katana/sabre (e.g. optimized slicing implements), and more along the lines of a gladius (e.g. relatively short, relatively broad blade suited for chopping).

Even if they were made of a different material, that 'Mechs aren't made of the same materials might come down to practical matters like cost (e.g. making a full armor set for a 'Mech out of the more exotic material might be prohibitively expensive) and availability (e.g. there might not be enough of it available in the environment, or making it is so time- and resource-intensive that mass-production at the rate needed to armor even a few 'Mechs - let alone, many 'Mechs - is impossible or impractical).
It's essentially the same reason why, for example, cutting wheels are diamond-coated metal discs, rather than solid discs of diamond.
Or, why MBTs aren't armored with slabs of solid diamond plating.

Still, consider that the Draconis Combine's sthick is that their overall culture fetishizes that of Feudal Japan - it's not really that out-of-place to believe that they'd incorporate aspects of the Feudal Japanese aesthetic into their large-scale mecha (which, recall, is already a hilariously impractical concept for a weapons platform).

[Bishop Steiner]

Strum Wealh, on 30 November 2015 - 10:33 AM, said:

The swords are probably made of the same general materials as 'Mech armor, possibly with some additional reinforcement along the edge of the blade (which I wouldn't expect to actually be sharpened).
IMO, 'Mech swords would less along the lines of the rapier (e.g. thrusting implements designed to target joints and seams) or katana/sabre (e.g. optimized slicing implements), and more along the lines of a gladius (e.g. relatively short, relatively broad blade suited for chopping).

Even if they were made of a different material, that 'Mechs aren't made of the same materials might come down to practical matters like cost (e.g. making a full armor set for a 'Mech out of the more exotic material might be prohibitively expensive) and availability (e.g. there might not be enough of it available in the environment, or making it is so time- and resource-intensive that mass-production at the rate needed to armor even a few 'Mechs - let alone, many 'Mechs - is impossible or impractical).
It's essentially the same reason why, for example, cutting wheels are diamond-coated metal discs, rather than solid discs of diamond.
Or, why MBTs aren't armored with slabs of solid diamond plating.

Still, consider that the Draconis Combine's sthick is that their overall culture fetishizes that of Feudal Japan - it's not really that out-of-place to believe that they'd incorporate aspects of the Feudal Japanese aesthetic into their large-scale mecha (which, recall, is already a hilariously impractical concept for a weapons platform).

Cutting wheels and armor aren't made of slabs of diamond because while hard, diamond is inherently brittle. (and expensive, even industrial).

And "same on same" long slender swords like the ones on the No Dachi and Hatamoto lose. A Katana had little effect against gothic plate.

A Gladius might work to some degree as a thrusting weapon, but just like weapon on armor, clubs, hatchets and axes, and hammers and military picks are the most effective against plate, especially Mech armor which is designed to absorb damage, not deflect it. Tungsten spikes would still be better.


It's a rule of cool idea, rather than remotely sound... and while there is a lot of lack of physics in Btech, I really find it totally ruins the flavor of the original game.

But I freely admit that I feel a huge amount of what was released after 3050 does that. Staypuft Marshmallow Man omnimechs that made zero sense (3050 omnis were angular for a reason, omnipod compatibility and modular construction between chassis) yet pretty much every Omni after 3050 is a walking pile of nonsense ( a few like the Blood Asp work)

So chalk it up to grumpy old man syndrome. If I want uber anime ballerina mechs...I'll play a game based on uber ballerina mechs. Battletech used to be WW I/II ish combat in a "Mad Max in space" universe. I rather miss that.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 30 November 2015 - 10:56 AM.