9 replies to this topic

[SmilingElf]

I have bold faced the key sentences in the discussion for the TLDR crowd.

This is not specifically a change/balance/whine thread. I'm just curious about something. (And if it happens to prompt some sort of change, cool.)

I understand having maxed and locked in-engine heat sinks, and I understand having external heat sinks for mechs running engines smaller than 250. I understand that the locked components of clan mechs are based on the 3050 TRO The part I don't understand is why some clan mechs, which seem to run pretty cool natively, have enough external heat sinks to get their cooling ratios up to ludicrous numbers.

The instance which brought this to my attention is the Nova-B configuration. Natively, it has an CUAC5, 2 machine guns, a small laser, and (as the only 'hot' weapon I could see) a CLPL. The cooling (according to Smurfy) on the stock configuration is 64%. I remember my Summoners being difficult to overheat, but increases to fire rate, hot enviroments, and other factors at least made it possible. This Nova is frozen.

Now, this thread breaks down to a couple of questions:

1) Is this variant/configuration an outlier? Or are there other clan mechs which run into this? (And if so which ones?)

2) Does anyone know why this was done in the first place? (PGI stuck to the TRO, but what prompted the loadout in the TRO?)

I know PGI is trying to stick to the TRO locked components as a balancing factor for the Clan mechs. And I do not expect an exception to be made, with the slippery slope argument and all that. But this just struck me as something that was very, very odd, and I wanted to throw it out there to see what the (useful, reasonably, non-flaming portion) community thought about it.

[EgoSlayer]

All the Nova variants have 14 DHS. The -B uses 2 energy weapons, vs the 12 on the -Prime or the 6 on the -S. So yes, it's going to run *much* cooler. It's not odd, or an outlier, its a function of the number of energy weapons and the fact that energy weapons generate more heat than ballistics.


EDIT:
Here is a 14 DHS IS mech with 122% efficiency (note - this is not necessarily a good build just an example of 14DHS cooling)
CTF-IM:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e4d08e7e007227c

The key is ballistics.

Edited by EgoSlayer, 29 December 2014 - 05:22 PM.

[TELEFORCE]

Several configurations on Clan 'mechs are way oversinked, but that's the nature of their construction in canon. The Summoner, Nova, Ice Ferret and Warhawk are the biggest offenders, in my opinion. With that being said, there's nothing bad about being oversinked given certain circumstances.

For an example, if engine critical hits were actually accounted for in MWO, the extra heat capacity of oversinked 'mechs can allow them to keep fighting as if nothing's happened to their engine shielding. It would be the same way for attacks against the 'mechs using heat-generating weapons, like flamers or Inferno SRMs.

On table top especially, what makes the Summoner so dangerous is that it can fire ALL of its weapons, and keep jumping at its maximum rate without overheating. This makes the 'mech pretty hard to hit, while making it a consistent heavy hitter (firing a head-capping ER PPC with no heat every round with 5 MP jumping modifiers? Yes please!).

Edited by TELEFORCE, 29 December 2014 - 05:19 PM.

[Brody319]

I've gotten IS builds up to +300% cooling efficiency.

[Mechteric]

I think another exception should be made, somehow, for those underwhelming clan mechs.

Lack of endo steel really hurts the Nova, Summoner, and Gargoyle.

As for the slow lights, I think they should be allowed to get MASC.

[Kodiak Jorgensson]

CapperDeluxe, on 29 December 2014 - 05:31 PM, said:

I think another exception should be made, somehow, for those underwhelming clan mechs.

Lack of endo steel really hurts the Nova, Summoner, and Gargoyle.

As for the slow lights, I think they should be allowed to get MASC.

The problem with the gargoyle is the lack of diverse omni pod hardpoints and a heavy engine even if the gargoyle could unlock endo steel I doubt 4 tons would really make much of a difference with this mech . the best your going to get with 4 extra tons is either an extra large laser DHS or ammo, sadly this thing will never be able to dual wield heavy ballistics unless it gets a smaller engine.

as for the lights that could be a good idea if they ever get MASC in game, however I would love to see them scaled down to something more in line with the Jenner/ scale. I feel they are way too big for there weight and speed and far to easy to hit compared to I.S lights. a Re-scale and MASC would help them a lot I think.

[SmilingElf]

TELEFORCE, on 29 December 2014 - 05:17 PM, said:

Several configurations on Clan 'mechs are way oversinked, but that's the nature of their construction in canon. The Summoner, Nova, Ice Ferret and Warhawk are the biggest offenders, in my opinion. With that being said, there's nothing bad about being oversinked given certain circumstances.

For an example, if engine critical hits were actually accounted for in MWO, the extra heat capacity of oversinked 'mechs can allow them to keep fighting as if nothing's happened to their engine shielding. It would be the same way for attacks against the 'mechs using heat-generating weapons, like flamers or Inferno SRMs.

On table top especially, what makes the Summoner so dangerous is that it can fire ALL of its weapons, and keep jumping at its maximum rate without overheating. This makes the 'mech pretty hard to hit, while making it a consistent heavy hitter (firing a head-capping ER PPC with no heat every round with 5 MP jumping modifiers? Yes please!).

Thank you! I assumed there was some reason they were loaded out that way in cannon and table top.

As I said, I'd like a little more leeway in tweaking these mechs, but that is a discussion for another thread; I was just curious what the original reasoning behind the design was.

[SmilingElf]

Part of the curiosity was why the Nova specifically had 'excess' external DHS. With an XL250, it has exactly 10 in the engine, but does not have any room for additional internal heat sinks. Most clan mechs I've seen use locked DHS around the specifications of the engine (get the mech up to 10 due to a small engine, or max out the internal options.) The particular confluence of an XL 250 was what originally prompted the line of thought. It didn't even register until I started working on the 'cold' variant.

[Golden Vulf]

Customization for omnimechs in MWO is currently locked apart from armor amounts. Those heatsinks that can not be removed are part of the base configuration.

The base configurations can be customized just like Inner Sphere battlemechs in the tabletop rules. Though people keep reading the wrong parts on sarna that make them think they can not be.

PGI did it this way in order to balance the clan ability to switch omni pod hard points. Some jump jet variants of clan mechs also had their jump jets locked, against the core rules as well (Timberwolf). But if clan mechs had hard point inflation the way IS mechs do, they wouldn't need to switch omni pod hard points. Also, many omni pods have completely redundant hard points.

Whether the Nova or Summoner or Mad Dog or Gargoyle get the ability to customize their structure and take endo will not make them better than the Stormcrow and Timberwolf (especially the Summoner, with so much of the critical space being taken up be FF armor and jump jets already, and the bad hardpoints), but it may add variety to regular games and CW drop decks if they suddenly become less of a waste of tonnage.

Basically, if IS players are tired of seeing Stormcrows and Timberwolves, then they should be in favor of certain Clan chassis getting upgrades unlocked. If this is somehow abhorrent to the IS playerbase, then whatever, we'll keep using Stormcrows and Timberwolves, you had your chance.

The Direwolf can already take quad Gauss and plenty of ammo after dropping some armor. Whether it really needs the endo or FF armor upgrades is up in the air.

Edited by Golden Vulf, 30 December 2014 - 03:05 AM.

[Thorn Hallis]

The lore explanation for "hot" TRO variants is always that the Clans prefer short fights and therefor do not care much for things that would have an effect in prolonged fights.