8 replies to this topic

[Ted Wayz]

So very glad CW is here. And yes, I realize it is Beta. But when it comes to map creation for CW do you use a military advisor?

I ask this because currently it appears the attacker has all the advantages. Currently the defender sits passively back waiting to determine where and with what force the attacker is attacking from/with. In a true defense situation the defenses are set up to give the attacker few options and to optimize the defenders strength.

Take Boreal. Who would throw up two walls, a few turrets and declare that an adequate defense? Let's ignore who is defending, the lines of sight on that map are horrible. On more than one occasion I have seen a 100-ton attacking mech appear out of nowhere next to the orbital cannon. Given the occupants have held these planets for decades in many cases why isn't the map set up to funnel the attackers in a direction of the defenders choosing?

Now let's consider who is attacking and defending. If people stick to canon (which btw mean no King Crab for anyone) why would House Liao have defenses that so heavily favor lights and not their Cataphracts and Stalkers? If I was an engineer and saw boreal I would bring out the dozers and set up a flat killing field for Davion mechs to try and cross versus a hail of missiles and AC fire.

So how I would like to see CW evolve is as follows: tug-of-war using multiple game modes. Start with skirmish as the units first engage. Follow with Conquer to gather resources. Next comes assault to gain key objectives to mount an assault on the orbital cannon. Finally attack on the cannon to finish off the planetary defenses, BUT make this a truly defensive map where the defenders have the advantage, both in terrain and suited to their mechs, and the attackers have to work.

tldr, hire military strategists to design unique defense maps for each House.

Edited by Ted Wayz, 29 December 2014 - 06:03 PM.

[luxebo]

If we give the defenders on Boreal a higher ground, I fear many ISer's will no longer find the motivation to play anymore, True that should happen in real life, and it makes sense, but will we actually enjoy it? The defenders have the advantage, they have higher ground, they have little valleys to cover and if the attackers poke their heads too much then defenders can easily guard em down and push them down.

If 100 ton mechs are appearing right next to the cannon, maybe it's not the map design, there is ECM and there is carelessness, and put two and two together 100 ton mechs will appear next to cannon. Unless you mean that the spawns are too damn close then that's an entirely different story all together.

It is also true that Sulfurous Rift is obviously not a well designed base (for the defenders) but once again they have ease in defending with some high ground and whatnot. It is much easier to play on this map however, as Boreal makes range key to every match. The multiple chokepoints give us as attackers a choice however, so it's more flexible than Boreal.

Yes it is realistic if they really have defenses and super high territory and whatnot, but will it be fun for the vast majority? Probably not as some might even disconnect to the sight of attacking now, not to mention if we buff those defenses. Everyone just wants to defend now, and making it more realistic to real-life defenses would suck for a normal player that doesn't have 12 mans every day (though I have some.)

Edited by luxebo, 29 December 2014 - 06:38 PM.

[Strikeshadow]

If this were done, then the attackers would need to have more units (players) to compenstate - just like in RL war.

[luxebo]

Strikeshadow, on 29 December 2014 - 08:01 PM, said:

If this were done, then the attackers would need to have more units (players) to compenstate - just like in RL war.

Yes this would also work, but then Clan vs IS would need some changes and whatnot.

[Mystere]

And yet in other threads, people claim it is the defender that has the advantages.

[Ted Wayz]

<p>Right now CW does not feel epic. Again, Beta, but planets change hands too easily. That is why I feel a mixed modes tug of war capped with an actual defendable base will prolong engagements and provide a more epic and realistic feel to the game while utilizing existing content.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The loss and gain of a planet should feel real. IMO it should take at last a week as attackers try and push deeper into the planet while defenders try and push them off planet. The end battle to take a planet should push both sides to their limits, not something as simple as run a bunch of ECM lights up the channels. In other MMOs I had the opportunity to defend an objective for 4 consecutive hours, finally leaving exhausted but excited to play the next night to see if we held. Right now I do not see the current planet end game supporting that level of excitement.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Real defendable maps could provide this.</p>
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[Crunch Troll]

Some defenders don't sit behind the walls. I was part of a defending unit that often takes the fight to the attackers. A predominantly heavy force (mostly Stormcrows, Hellbringers & Timber Wolves), we jump over the walls without waiting for the gates to open (Boreal) and engage the attackers on the far side. This often takes them by surprise. We spoil their attack plans, cost them valuable time and inflict substantial damage.

Attack or defend, some of the best results I have witnessed stemmed from generally aggressive tactics. Being passive means waiting for the enemy to act then reacting to them. Being aggressive forces them to react to you and likely spoils their plan (no battle plan survives 1st contact with the enemy). It is all about using the right tactics for the situation (map, forces, etc).

Yes, the limited number of maps does get repetitive. We have to bear in mind CW is in Beta so things are bound to change. I agree with Ted Ways, something needs to be done about the way planets are taken. According the established MW history, the Clans should still be engaged in the Periphery til early 3050 (currently late 3049). Yet, we have reached the 2nd wave line. PGI needs to re-evaluate how planets are taken, possibly integrating the general battle maps/types somehow. Maybe battles leading up to the orbital gun attack (like Ted Wayz indicated in his initial post). This would probably require a reset of CW to the appropriate point the MW universe.

Edited by Crunch Troll, 16 January 2015 - 06:47 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Mystere, on 29 December 2014 - 10:17 PM, said:

And yet in other threads, people claim it is the defender that has the advantages.

Borreal, the Defense has pretty much every advantage. 2 gates close together, so the entire defense can defend both gates quite effortlessly, they get their spawn right beside the main objective that is also guarded by unholy amounts of turret fire and the gates on Borreal are a pain to bring down unless you want to sit and get peppered to bits by the time the door is open.

Sulpher the attack has a few more bonuses...3 gates, 1 of which leads right behind the gun, and they can safely fire on it from a nice large covering rock and hill, and the 3 gates are far enough apart that the defense can not just play as a turret themselves. Defense does still spawn right on the gun, but ive seen Attack win Sulpher plenty, through just normal **** storm brawling. They lose alot of mechs but in the end, due to the increased avenues of approach and more spread out defense, they are able to break through much easier.

[Ted Wayz]

Hate to disagree but on Boreal it is only 150m until lights can disappear into the maze of channels on the left. The right side is good for heavy pushes. And that is pretty much what you see time and time again. The defenders can sit on F8 only to be whittled down by a patient attacker with sniper and missile fire. In other words unless you abut the hill between the gates you are totally exposed. If you abut the hill you can't catch up to a light rush and you get finished off that way.

In some ways you are forced to attack on defense because the maps are not designed for defense. Stop me if you have heard this one before, all generators are down and Omega is exposed. On Boreal you can only hope all their lights have been consumed so they are left with heavies you can leg. You can't sit back in either case because the cannon is literally a glass cannon. So you move forward hoping to stop the attack before they run past and destroy Omega.

On Sulphur you are worse off because the amount of cover afforded to attackers coming Beta or the short distance needed to cover from Gamma.

On both maps they are designed to funnel out, not in. Pick the wrong direction and it is hard to make up the ground.

PGI stated the latest changes were made to force brawls near Omega. Why would a defender want it to reach that point? The changes favor the attacker.

The end game in underwhelming. I am not saying all defenses should resemble the Battle for Roarke's Drift, but defensive positions should b designed to favor the defender. Consulting a military strategist would help with map design.

Edited by Ted Wayz, 30 December 2014 - 09:11 PM.