53 replies to this topic

[InspectorG]

So which is more OP? Clansmen or IS mechs?

Trick question, neither are OP.

Why? Well read on.

Caveat:
this is what ive gathered from personal play, comp recommendations(largely metamechs.com), and speccing 'good' players after i die.
Not the definitive answer, no and also VERY likely to change after the Clan quirk pass. PLZ SAVE OUR SUMMONER!!!!

Also feel free to add to the discussion, but also reference Reddit, and metamechs.com. Learn from the vets and comps. 'Success leaves footprints', they say...so look to the average-successful-player. There is some freak with a 3.5 KDR in a 3 flamer Spider out there somewhere. Doesnt mean it will work for anyone else. Learn what works against good competition, then innovate. No need to reinvent the wheel.

Get to the point, Inspector.

So, IS PROS:

Better DAKKA, pinpoint front loaded damage. Clan Gauss is better but they cant capitalize on that fact.

Not stuck with hard-wired loadouts, endo/ferro can be removed/added at cost.

Better heat management for certain builds - quirk dependent but obvious particular in close range brawls.

Engine choice, not stuck to a certain speed, leads to next point:

Better lights. I dont know anyone who argues the Clan lights are BETTER than the IS ones.
FS is the Scarecrow of the IS lights. Clan lights aside from the Kitfox and maybe Adder are...not translating to MWO from BT well. Others call them crap.

Better LRMs, group launched, less eaten up by AMS, and with quirks, some variants outpace Clan DPS

Several ECM options: light , medium, assault.

Less arm hardpoints, more tosro hardpoints.

Better variety/choice between hardpoints, usually better placed.

Removable jump jets, how many viable builds need more than 2JJ post JJ nerf?

BEST PRO: QUIRKS. Thunderbad went to ThunderGods in one patch...think about that.

IS CONS:

XLengine is a serious choice in non-lights. You give up serious survivability for saved weight.

Too many chassis/variants(from an efficiency viewpoint, not from a lore-fun viewpoint).

Lasers are shorter range and weaker. Only the duration is better.This is without quirks though.

TOO MANY OPTIONS, paralysis by analysis...or whatever. WAY MOAR un-optimized builds in the IS. Just spec matches if you dont believe me. Slow PPC+3ML Jenner, 4LRM20 Atlas, XL Stalker SRM builds, LBx10 HBK-G, etc etc etc.

Too many speeds between different mechs. Mainly a Pug problem. Team groups up, then all the 120kph+ mechs run off, rest lag behind. Hard to coordinate and focus fire that way.

No built in CASE. Ammo goes BOOM!!! So does rest of mech.

Chassis may have a very good variant, but you need to level 2 other crap ones to elite out. Is the time invested worth it?

CLAN PROS:

XL engines, twice as durable/smaller than IS ones.

Longer range and damage Lasers, though with worse duration.

Better SRM. Smaller lighter better.

Variety of Streak SRM, meh but its true.

HOLY TRINITY: In the name of the Scarecrow, Timber, Dire, amen.

OMNIPODS: hate leveling that lrm boat? Put the laserboat pods on. EZ PZ.

Weapons are lighter/smaller. Yay technology.

Better DHS, smaller.

Built in CASE, ammo goes but the mech doesnt.

Better Gauss.

Fewer possible builds leads to fewer un-optimised builds. I do see LBX boat Dires but...thats about it.
There is a thing as 'too much choice'.

Mechs have similar speed...which an cause 'accidental' coordination in pugs. It appears intentional to the enemy for sure...Teamwork OP plz nerf...

Fast for BT but doesnt translate well to MWO. Heavies are faster but lights are slower, i guess. Pro for synergy...aside from lights?

BEST PRO: Holy Trinity(in nominae, patrae, espiritu sancte, amen) nets you 9 mechs you need to elite that will cover 80%+ of ANY situation needed. Plus they tend to have the nice hitboxes as well. Bonus endurance. You earn the title of P2W tryhard. Wear it with genetically engineered pride!

CLAN CONS:

Only half the mechs are 'very' good. Holy Trinity + St. Peter(Hellbie) is the Church. Kitfox is the choir boy...yeah...
The rest...not so good:
bAdder(slow), Gargels(frail with firepower of a medium), Slummoner(wide, low arms, alpha of a IS light), NOva(knuckle dragger hot box with a huge nose-WAS good until nerf), Myth Lythx(paratrooper commando minus the fun), Ice Furreal(wannabe cicada/griffin i dunno), Warhawk(not bad but why u no Dire?)

Vs some quirked IS mechs, cannot compete in laser brawling due to heat buildup. Clans have better DHS but...quirks are supreme.

ARMS, many weapons are loaded due to Arm hardpoints from Lore. In lore, Clansmen didnt like good old fisticuffs. The art of throwing hands was gauche and barbaric. Less hand actuators, more low slung weapons. LOSE ARMS, LOSE GUNS, MAY NOT have any in torsos(Lynx, Ferret, Slummoner, NOva, Warhawk, Kitfox, Gargles...damn thats about half of the lineup)

EXPENSIVE, up front at least. But with the Holy Trinity(amen) you get what you pay for.
Many IS mechs are 'cheaper' but have hidden upgrade costs if you dont have a stable of extra engines laying around. STICKER SHOCK makes this a con, specially for a beginner on a cadet bonus. Start mowing yards, kids...

HIT SCAN DAKKA, well not per se, but it is spread over time. No poptart for you.

LASER DURATION = more facetime = more damage received. Hard to say if its balanced with Clan laser damage if you stay at range. Comp experience could weigh in on that more than i.

Hard Wired upgrades. Good for BT's BV system. Save some $ and tons by taking Ferro instead of Endo. Many BT builds did NOT use max armor. FAILS in MWO. Wasted Tons. Slummoner Cries at night while eating ice cream and watching Glee.
FF instead of Endo: FAIL
>2 JJ: FAIL
Active Probe:FAIL...not as bad though. less forgivable on a light with little spare tonnage.
DHS: FAIL, cant crit pad hard wired ones, others keep you from using torso hardpoints.
ENGINE: SEMI-FAIL. No choice in speed. = Crap Lights. Gargles is stuck.

Best weapons are Hitscan. Learn to vomit from real far away, keep that mouse steady.

Gauss is good but...many mechs cant Dual or carry enough ammo, or put them in a torso due to hardwired equips. Slummoner goes to fat camp.

Dual ERPPC gets hot...fast.

Lack of pinpoint damage options. Dual Gauss/ERPPC. ACs not so much. Who even LBX's?

LRMs stream and get eaten by AMS more. They also leave a big blue fireworks stream to where they came from.

Lack of ECM.

Only 3-4 viable mechs...kinda boring.

SPECIAL NOTE

Those PUGS who dropped CW and 'never can beat the Clans/IS', for like 10 times in a row. Impossiburr! PGI i want refund for this crap. Y U ruin my Game? CW wont last till summer, I QUIT !!!

Ask yourself these questions:
1. Was the enemy a 12man unit?
2. Was the enemy on voice comms(viop)?
3. Do you think CW should be Skirmish/Assault but with 3 extra lives?

ANSWERS:
1. CW was intended for 12man teams, logically, they migrate over to CW and you will see them more. 12mans tend to practice together a lot. Match Maker tries to put 12 vs 12 but its luck of the draw if there are odd numbers of 12mans in que. BE WARNED.

2. 12mans usually are on VOIP. SOME of the more ORGANIZED-(remember this word, VERY important for CW) factions have VOIP for smaller units to meet other small units or solos. THAT ENEMY PUG TEAM MAY BE ON VOIP. Just because their unit tags are different and may have different factions doesnt mean they arent talking to each other.

Why is VOIP so important? Coordination = organization.
That means they can react faster, change what they are doing faster, capitalize on your mistakes faster, focus fire on weakened mechs faster,etc.
They will also likely have a better morale.

3. Understandable for a beginner. But the 'extra lives' are meant to be used as part of an overall strategy.

Think:

Less, ' i get 4 chances to kill', that means more rewards right? No.

More, 'ok we are gonna brawl for 2 waves then speed cap omega last 2, Heavy Dakka mechs for the first 2 waves - so 10 assaults(banshees and crabs only) and 2 scouts. Scouts are gonna be ECM...spiders. First wave we open alpha, second gamma. Brawl and push the generators, if we get the best of them, dont push and keep brawling - leg and leave them. Scouts dont brawl, fall back for 3rd wave. 3rd wave we want half ECM so 6 spiders, 6 FS, zerg last generator then push Omega.
Last wave, 3 spider, rest FS, zerg.

Try to communicate that to a Pug of solo's. You cant really.

ON TOP OF THAT, during the fighting, they will call out targets.
'Betty Betty right torso cored', 3 mechs shoot target BB in the RT within a 2 second window.
Happen to you? They are on comms.
3-4 mechs sweeping your legs all at once? They are on comms.
Got gauss sniped and lost RT/CT/Left Leg all at once with full armor?
They were on comms.

See the picture?

So in closing:

TL;DR, Clan mech Holy Trinity are the superior generalists. IS quirk gods are better than the Trinity AT ONE THING ONLY.

Special Note:

TL;DR, Organized Units on VOIP will be VERY VERY hard for Solo pugs not using VOIP to defeat.
THIS IS AS INTENDED. Go dig up PGI's intention for CW. It wasnt intended to be twitch CoD with 4 lives.

Hope this helps. Forum warrior mode- off.

[Farix]

I started running Stormcrows the last couple of days. I get at least one kill in nearly every match. THAT NEVER HAPPENS. Clearly the Stormcrow is OP.

[InspectorG]

Farix, on 27 December 2014 - 06:05 PM, said:

I started running Stormcrows the last couple of days. I get at least one kill in nearly every match. THAT NEVER HAPPENS. Clearly the Stormcrow is OP.

I personally suck in them.

I have a better KDR in my Banshees than i do in any other assault. Pre quirk too!

[Nightshade24]

IS is clearly the victor for most OP.

The Firestarter and Thunderbolts are quite a challange on stopping...

the lack of clan quirks also makes practically any clan mech that isn't the stormcrow or timberwolf useless in CW.
(even then I do not really see why people like those two mechs a lot)

[InspectorG]

Nightshade24, on 27 December 2014 - 06:14 PM, said:

(even then I do not really see why people like those two mechs a lot)

Slummoner is my favorite and there is a vocal minority trying to get Russ to improve it. Give it RT/LT pods with 2E each.
Quirks like the Thud 9s for the Prime.

General energy quirks For the D, 33% duration for wubs, 50% duration for ER

General missile quirks for the B.

It would be the fast, mobile striker the Timber cant be.

[Nightshade24]

InspectorG, on 27 December 2014 - 06:19 PM, said:

Slummoner is my favorite and there is a vocal minority trying to get Russ to improve it. Give it RT/LT pods with 2E each.
Quirks like the Thud 9s for the Prime.

General energy quirks For the D, 33% duration for wubs, 50% duration for ER

General missile quirks for the B.

It would be the fast, mobile striker the Timber cant be.

and what does the summoner being good have to do with the timberwolf and stormcrow being popular?....

[LordKnightFandragon]

Neither are really OP.

Both are balanced and quirky in their own right.

Given the Clans dont have some 100+ choices for mechs to choose, and only 3 are deemed as the "OP" ones, it only makes sense that everyone drives the 3. The "Weaker" Clan mechs do need some quirks to help them seem more feasible and desirable to more people. Not huge sweeping buffs, but a few tweaks here and there are all thats really needed to bring most of the Clan mechs up to snuff.

Buffing the CERPPC up to 15/15 would be a nice change to help out the WHK-P and SMN-P, since their main weapons are CERPPC. As they stand, those CERPPC based builds are just a waste and not at all efficient. I get the need to make them less desirable so people dont Dire Star incessantly, but while trying to stop the cheese builds, the standard loadouts for some mechs are made pretty well obsolete.

If nothing else, These quirks for the WHK and SMN for the CERPPC would be awesome
-20% Heat generation for CERPPC
+20% Shot Velocity for CERPPC
-10% Cool down for CERPPC
+50% damage for CERPPC

Or any combo of those. I would rather the CERPPC stay 15 heat but become a 15dmg weapon with higher velocity just for the WHK P and SMN P.

SMN for all variants should recieve some mobility, agility and JJ buffs, if not thrust and height, then recovery time so it can JJ faster.

For the NVA, if that mechs role is a fast striker mech, run in, shoot, run away, cool down, repeat...then it should be quirked as such:
+20% JJ Juice
-20% JJ Juice recovery
-20% To Energy heat generation
-10% to energy weapon cool down

If people want the clans to play more of thier robots, they really should be quirked or buffed in such a way that truly defines their role and lets them play it well.

[Nightshade24]

LordKnightFandragon, on 27 December 2014 - 06:48 PM, said:

Neither are really OP.

Both are balanced and quirky in their own right.

Given the Clans dont have some 100+ choices for mechs to choose, and only 3 are deemed as the "OP" ones, it only makes sense that everyone drives the 3. The "Weaker" Clan mechs do need some quirks to help them seem more feasible and desirable to more people. Not huge sweeping buffs, but a few tweaks here and there are all thats really needed to bring most of the Clan mechs up to snuff.

Buffing the CERPPC up to 15/15 would be a nice change to help out the WHK-P and SMN-P, since their main weapons are CERPPC. As they stand, those CERPPC based builds are just a waste and not at all efficient. I get the need to make them less desirable so people dont Dire Star incessantly, but while trying to stop the cheese builds, the standard loadouts for some mechs are made pretty well obsolete.

If nothing else, These quirks for the WHK and SMN for the CERPPC would be awesome
-20% Heat generation for CERPPC
+20% Shot Velocity for CERPPC
-10% Cool down for CERPPC
+50% damage for CERPPC

Or any combo of those. I would rather the CERPPC stay 15 heat but become a 15dmg weapon with higher velocity just for the WHK P and SMN P.

SMN for all variants should recieve some mobility, agility and JJ buffs, if not thrust and height, then recovery time so it can JJ faster.

For the NVA, if that mechs role is a fast striker mech, run in, shoot, run away, cool down, repeat...then it should be quirked as such:
+20% JJ Juice
-20% JJ Juice recovery
-20% To Energy heat generation
-10% to energy weapon cool down

If people want the clans to play more of thier robots, they really should be quirked or buffed in such a way that truly defines their role and lets them play it well.

Why no massive buffs like -25% ballistic cooldown, -25% LBX 5 cooldown for something like the kitfox prime?
Or LRM 5 reload on the ice ferret.

I can see a lot of mechs for the clans needing a huge buff to a certain weapon... I'm talking hunchback and locust grade buffs.

[Desolator]

InspectorG, on 27 December 2014 - 06:13 PM, said:

I personally suck in them.

I have a better KDR in my Banshees than i do in any other assault. Pre quirk too!

Really you are comparing your results in an assault mech, to that of a medium mech? wow just wow.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Most OP?

Teamwork
Coordination
Communication
Just flat-out following along and not trying to do your own thing every match.

The rest of this OPost I find to be a pretty reasonable perspective. Do not agree with all of it, but overall, pretty well thought out dissection of things.

[Christof Romulus]

[Aresye]

The Clans have the Holy Trinity.

The IS has the Firestarter, 2 Thunderbolt variants, Banshee, Misery, Dragon Slayer, Shadowhawks, and Griffins. AND...maybe AC20 quriked Hunchbacks and Dragon dakka.

I feel the IS has more options available to take in a competitive sense.

[Yukichi Fukuzawa]

LordKnightFandragon, on 27 December 2014 - 06:48 PM, said:

Neither are really OP.

Both are balanced and quirky in their own right.

Given the Clans dont have some 100+ choices for mechs to choose, and only 3 are deemed as the "OP" ones, it only makes sense that everyone drives the 3. The "Weaker" Clan mechs do need some quirks to help them seem more feasible and desirable to more people. Not huge sweeping buffs, but a few tweaks here and there are all thats really needed to bring most of the Clan mechs up to snuff.

Buffing the CERPPC up to 15/15 would be a nice change to help out the WHK-P and SMN-P, since their main weapons are CERPPC. As they stand, those CERPPC based builds are just a waste and not at all efficient. I get the need to make them less desirable so people dont Dire Star incessantly, but while trying to stop the cheese builds, the standard loadouts for some mechs are made pretty well obsolete.

If nothing else, These quirks for the WHK and SMN for the CERPPC would be awesome
-20% Heat generation for CERPPC
+20% Shot Velocity for CERPPC
-10% Cool down for CERPPC
+50% damage for CERPPC

Or any combo of those. I would rather the CERPPC stay 15 heat but become a 15dmg weapon with higher velocity just for the WHK P and SMN P.

SMN for all variants should recieve some mobility, agility and JJ buffs, if not thrust and height, then recovery time so it can JJ faster.

For the NVA, if that mechs role is a fast striker mech, run in, shoot, run away, cool down, repeat...then it should be quirked as such:
+20% JJ Juice
-20% JJ Juice recovery
-20% To Energy heat generation
-10% to energy weapon cool down

If people want the clans to play more of thier robots, they really should be quirked or buffed in such a way that truly defines their role and lets them play it well.

Worst. Least Balanced quirks I have ever seen. God.

The fact you can say that with a straight face blows my mind.

Edited by Yukichi Fukuzawa, 27 December 2014 - 08:30 PM.

[InspectorG]

Desolator, on 27 December 2014 - 06:53 PM, said:

Really you are comparing your results in an assault mech, to that of a medium mech? wow just wow.

Not the point i was making.

You can be better in a non-tier1 mech, the inverse of his assumption that going SCRO automatically makes you better.

Nightshade24, on 27 December 2014 - 06:43 PM, said:

and what does the summoner being good have to do with the timberwolf and stormcrow being popular?....

It could fill a role they cant, jumping PPFLD.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Yukichi Fukuzawa, on 27 December 2014 - 08:29 PM, said:

Worst. Least Balanced quirks I have ever seen. God.

The fact you can say that with a straight face blows my mind.

No explantion why? Do you even use ER PPC on any of your IS mechs? ERPPCs in general, both IS and Clan generally suck..only masochists or people lying to themselves use those...

And if we cant get straight up buffs to the CERPPC, then atleast the mechs who pretty much main them should get quirks to make the things actually worth carrying.

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 27 December 2014 - 08:58 PM.

[Cer6erus]

Nice post OP

[Kiiyor]

Aresye, on 27 December 2014 - 07:41 PM, said:

The Clans have the Holy Trinity.

The IS has the Firestarter, 2 Thunderbolt variants, Banshee, Misery, Dragon Slayer, Shadowhawks, and Griffins. AND...maybe AC20 quriked Hunchbacks and Dragon dakka.

I feel the IS has more options available to take in a competitive sense.

This is true, but IMHO, there isn't one 'Sphere mech mentioned there that can complete with anything in the same weight class in the clan triumvirate of doom.

The Clans don't really need any other competitive mechs, they pretty much have the perfect drop deck already.

[InspectorG]

Kiiyor, on 27 December 2014 - 09:09 PM, said:

The Clans don't really need any other competitive mechs, they pretty much have the perfect drop deck already.

Buff the Mist Lynx and it would be all set.

LordKnightFandragon, on 27 December 2014 - 08:58 PM, said:

No explantion why? Do you even use ER PPC on any of your IS mechs? ERPPCs in general, both IS and Clan generally suck..only masochists or people lying to themselves use those...

Has he been in a Thud 9S? A Slummoner Prime?

Christof Romulus, on 27 December 2014 - 07:14 PM, said:

Devil is sometimes in the details. Sorry you dont like to read.

Aresye, on 27 December 2014 - 07:41 PM, said:

The Clans have the Holy Trinity.

The IS has the Firestarter, 2 Thunderbolt variants, Banshee, Misery, Dragon Slayer, Shadowhawks, and Griffins. AND...maybe AC20 quriked Hunchbacks and Dragon dakka.

I feel the IS has more options available to take in a competitive sense.

True, but, think of all the variants you have to power level. Clans can shuffle pods around to make it easier.

[Andi Nagasia]

nice thought out post,
we also have to remember that IS will get more weapons later in the time line as well
all or most of the below Equipment IS and Clan will get in this Next Decade 3050-60,

=IS get=
LFE(the big one)
ER-ML
ER-SL
X-Pulse Lasers
MRM
LightGauss
HeavyGuass
PPCCapacitor
Hypervelocity ACs

=Clan get=
ATM
Heavy Lasers

[LordKnightFandragon]

Andi Nagasia, on 27 December 2014 - 10:20 PM, said:

nice thought out post,
we also have to remember that IS will get more weapons later in the time line as well
all or most of the below Equipment IS and Clan will get in this Next Decade 3050-60,

=IS get=
LFE(the big one)
ER-ML
ER-SL
X-Pulse Lasers
MRM
LightGauss
HeavyGuass
PPCCapacitor
Hypervelocity ACs

=Clan get=
ATM
Heavy Lasers

I can see Heavy Lasers being in the same boat as ERPPCs....since they deal a fair bit more damage for a fair bit more heat, im sure the heat will not justify the damage increase.

Looking on Sarna, the HLL is a 16/18 weapon, im sure they will give it the shorter range, and the burn time will prolly be around 2.5-3s...just cuz....

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 27 December 2014 - 10:41 PM.