1123 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Davers, on 02 January 2015 - 03:52 PM, said:

I'm sorry, but if a team of Thunderbolts can win an entire battle hiding, stationary, behind one hill, that says a lot more about their opposition than it does about itself.

YEs. Be deliberately obtuse.

You taking lessons from Roland?

What they are doing is dropping the gates and usually a full wave of the defenders from hiding
then push in because believe it or not they are still very effective up close, en masse.
By this point, if they have taken heavy losses, they push in with a large number of 5S or the LPL TBolts.

Std engines, mob tactics (nothing in MWO yet has proven effective against synergistic zerg rushes, which is why every comp team seems to favor that tactic, most times) and synergized over quirked weapons do the rest.

If bored, all it takes is camping the defender spawn points, because 4-5 quirked Tbolts will leg or kill the reinforcements the moment they drop, and the Dropships Medium Lasers are beyond laughable.


In no case does ECM or Speed really matter, which is why 228 and other comps and semi comp teams for the IS are doing this. OVer and over again.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 02 January 2015 - 03:58 PM.

[Davers]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 January 2015 - 03:57 PM, said:

YEs. Be deliberately obtuse.

You taking lessons from Roland?

What they are doing is dropping the gates and usually a full wave of the defenders from hiding
then push in because believe it or not they are still very effective up close, en masse.
By this point, if they have taken heavy losses, they push in with a large number of 5S or the LPL TBolts.

Std engines, mob tactics (nothing in MWO yet has proven effective against synergistic zerg rushes, which is why every comp team seems to favor that tactic, most times) and synergized over quirked weapons do the rest.

If bored, all it takes is camping the defender spawn points, because 4-5 quirked Tbolts will leg or kill the reinforcements the moment they drop, and the Dropships Medium Lasers are beyond laughable.


In no case does ECM or Speed really matter, which is why 228 and other comps and semi comp teams for the IS are doing this. OVer and over again.

Is the problem the mech or teamwork? Isn't every competitive group accused of doing the exact same thing, irregardless of whether they are IS or Clan? Please keep in mind I don't really have a dog in this fight. I have used the Thunderbolt in CW a total of 2 times. I have used the Griffin 3M more than the Thud.

[Gorgo7]

Ripnfly, on 02 January 2015 - 05:52 AM, said:

Thunderbolts with ERPPCS only.

There is little to no varience in builds now. Its all ERPPCs on thunderbolts.

I would like to see a change to thunderbolts.This "Meta" is not enjoyable especially in PUG matches.


You have said you didnt want players boating long range weapons especially PPCs yet this is what players are currently doing. AGAIN

Double heat quircks are far to powerful.


In CW the problem is even worse with most cordinated groups only droping thunderboltz.

I also see more Awsome Q's daily with 4 ppc builds.

Suck it up princess. The clan should fall back and convert to the innersphere...

[Bishop Steiner]

Davers, on 02 January 2015 - 04:08 PM, said:

Is the problem the mech or teamwork? Isn't every competitive group accused of doing the exact same thing, irregardless of whether they are IS or Clan? Please keep in mind I don't really have a dog in this fight. I have used the Thunderbolt in CW a total of 2 times. I have used the Griffin 3M more than the Thud.

tell me, was a single mech poptarting ever balance breaking? (Seriously, even with Heimdelight or the like at the stick, I never was afraid of a solo CTF-3D or Dragonslayer.)

Or when you had teams of 8-12 doing it?

Mech balance has to be done in consideration of the effects of teamwork. Most Meta builds are not really terribly "OP" (in fact, some,. like the 2ac5/2ppc dragonslayer were downright mediocre if you got in their grill) until the are used in a team. A single TImberWolf is not a balance changer. 3 can be. 8-12? Definitely.

[Hillslam]

I find this thread, and pretty much all the threads on CW, amusing and validating. That, and the nose-diving attendance queue numbers on CW planets (even near the reset time, those numbers are LOW).

Hate to say I told you so, but I told you so: Greedy, self-serving customers who are completely unable to see their advantages are given at the expense of other customers who guess what, don't want to stroke your neckbeard epeen. You're just not that awesome. PvP != PvE and it never could be that way and survive. No previous lore or game comparisons make it viable.

But maybe you'll learn when you're staring at the launch clock ticking up forever waiting on no opponents.

Or Hey, maybe you could insult and argue them some more into fighting against you in junk gear!

See you all in a few months after they iron everything out.

Meantime, talk to wall, back to Elite Dangerous.

Edited by Hillslam, 02 January 2015 - 04:19 PM.

[Win Ott]

Thunderbolts are finally useful in this game again. The 9S is not OP, it's right about at P. Most of the complaints seem to stem from CW. This, I think, says more about CW than it does about the Thunderbolt.

[Brody319]

LordBraxton, on 02 January 2015 - 03:39 PM, said:

I have clan mechs as well man.

Omnipods. That's huge.

My point remains the same. Lack of customization does not effect faction power level. I know the summoner\adder especially are handicapped, but anything Clan that is GOOD, is by far the BEST due to clan XL.

"Good Clan mechs"
Timberwolf, Stormcrow, Direwolf, and Hellbringer.

Timberwolf - Lose a side torso, lose half your weapons. Side torsos get exponentially easier to hit with any missiles.
Stormcrow - broken Side torso hit boxes make it hard to shoot the torsos.
Direwolf - Lose a side torso, lost half your weapons, slow turning speed means losing a side torso makes it harder to aim at closer ranges.
Hellbringer - 50/50 chance to lose a side torso and lose absolutely nothing, or, lose the ECM torso and end up with a maximum of 2 energy hardpoints left.

Now lets list the Clan mechs with XL clan engines that are average at best, equal to the average IS mech in the SAME weight class:
Warhawk
Maddog

Now lets list the Clan mechs with their XL clan engines that are WORSE than the IS mechs of the SAME weight class
Gargoyle
Ice Ferret
Nova
Summoner
Adder
Kit Fox
Lynx

What you are implying is that if the top 3-4 Clan mechs had IS XLs or STD engines they would be WORSE than they are now.
Okay So lets look at the Direwolf. It has an XL 300. Lets switch to a standard 300 and see how much tonnage it gives up.
Clan XL 300 is 15.5 Tons. the IS STD 300 engine weights in at 25 tons.
now the Direwolf has 50.5 tons free. So lets add that extra weight and we end up with a total weight of free space (with max armor) of 41 tons.
I go into smurfy, I need to leave 9.5 tons because that is the difference in engine weights. I can still go 2 PPCs and 2 Gauss rifles with 5 tons of ammo for them. So...yea Sorry for the Direwolf, you would only improve it by allowing it to equip a STD engine.

Timberwolf (max armor of course) has a 375 engine. STD weighs in at 45.5 tons, C-XL engine weights in at 26.5 19 tons of difference. with 27.5 tons to play with, you now only have 8.5 tons to play with. So yes a STD would make the Timberwolf Vastly inferior to how it is now. you can only mount about 5 medium pulse lasers, so laser vomit only works if you switch from pulse lasers to regular ones.


Stormcrow (max armor) runs a 330. STD 330 31.5 tons. C-XL 330 is 19.5 tons. Tonnage difference of 12. Tonnage playable 22.8 tons. tonnage difference subtracted = 10.8 tons to play with. However, I can still build the 5 SRM6 build. with 4 tons of ammo. So that build still works. I'm going to put this into the, works with a STD engine still, catigory with the Direwolf.

Hellbringer runs a 325. STD 325 is 30.5 tons. C-XL 325 is 19 tons. Tonnage difference 11.5. The Tonnage playable with the XL is 23 tons. That leaves you 11.5 tons to play with. Meta build is 4 LLs. I can put 2 in and a medium pulse laser if I put in ECM. So hellbringer is still pretty decent.


So out of the "holy trinity" only the Timberwolf is would die if you put a STD engine in it. ASSUMING you maxed the armor, didn't change the omnipods, and were using the same sized engine. So its almost like....oh my god...the chassis are just good! and the omnipod system, and engine system has nothing to do with it!

[Davers]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 January 2015 - 04:12 PM, said:

tell me, was a single mech poptarting ever balance breaking? (Seriously, even with Heimdelight or the like at the stick, I never was afraid of a solo CTF-3D or Dragonslayer.)

Or when you had teams of 8-12 doing it?

Mech balance has to be done in consideration of the effects of teamwork. Most Meta builds are not really terribly "OP" (in fact, some,. like the 2ac5/2ppc dragonslayer were downright mediocre if you got in their grill) until the are used in a team. A single TImberWolf is not a balance changer. 3 can be. 8-12? Definitely.

In that case the only possible solution would be Roland's Battle Point system based on mech usage. It is impossible to balance anything based on how good it is alone, or in a lance, or in a company, as well as what is mounted on it.

[Arctourus]

to be honest, I don't play my 9s that way, but I do have a four ppc aws 8q. The thing about ppcs is you can't alpha much, even with that sort of heat reduction. They work best if you find someone big and slow downrange that you can chain fire in a steady fashion until they either get into cover, die or you get too hot. Mechs that only sport a bunch of ppcs/erppcs are incredibly disadvantaged up close. If you see one of these 9s boats, just get close. They can't duel well without overheating and will fall to a steady dps brawler.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Roland, on 02 January 2015 - 04:01 PM, said:

You should continue to throw a tantrum, bishop.

Question i haven't seen you on in my friends list but then i generally observe the unit list more, how much CW have you played Roland?

I dislike Bishop as much as the next guy (infact i can't stand him) but he has some solid points here in this thread and it's sad that someone i know can field a decent argument is reduced to just trolling him because you can't argue the 9S quirks are OTT

[Thorqemada]

Watch the latest Edmiester Twitch Stream - reduncolus...

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 January 2015 - 03:36 PM, said:

considering how much of CW revolves around that sniper battle at the beginning? Pretty important. And again, the Hellbringer does not have better hitboxes, and had less IS in the STs, and neither die to ST destruction. Also, the RoF of the THUD allows it to fire 5 full volleys for every 3 from the Hellbringer......and do it for less heat.

The Thud does not do it for less heat unless it's only firing 2, if it's only firing 2 then it's doing less damage on target - if it's firing in volleys than you are exposing yourself longer, likely spreading that damage and also having to put up with (unfortunate) hitreg issues with PPCs fired in succession.

Yes, the HBR's CERPPCs are spread but it's still an extra 10 damage on target.

Bishop Steiner, on 02 January 2015 - 03:36 PM, said:

Again, the ECM is nice, but in this battle irrelevant (as the Thud doesn't have to lock on, and the PPC scrambles the ECM). For the total forces, not even huge, since the current IS meta in CW eschews LRMs anyways.

So in this one particular case, the Thunderbolt has the Edge.

The HBR has other advantages when the situation isn't so specific.


That's the point. It's OK for the Thunderbolt 9S to have an edge in the one thing it specializes in.


This is actually good balance. Mechs having advantages vs. one another in different circumstances.

Bishop Steiner, on 02 January 2015 - 03:36 PM, said:

Oh please, do hop the gates, leave cover and charge into 36 ER PPCs. That will get me to the next match that much faster.

If you think this can't be done, then that's something you'll just have to experience. No point getting into a war of words over it.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 02 January 2015 - 04:31 PM.

[Utilyan]

I think it would be great idea to incorporate like a depreciating Quirk system to weapons on some mechs. Like if you got 1 ppc it gets like huge quirk bonus, as you add more of same type the quirk gets smaller.

I'd be fore this before the dreaded...........:::look around:::.........Ghost-heat..........:::THUNDER&LIGHTNING:::


I also really hope to see more faction specific quirks. I wish we were just discussing one particular faction.


I think the SAME mech in a differ faction should have a different set of quirks too.


The same thing can go for defensive quirks. Imagine if ghost bear had some snow-armor which takes reduce electrical damage from ppcs, Weapon specific defenses.

During CW one of my main mechs has been Awesome-8Q, 4ppcs, but at low frame rates its really all bark and no bite. It puts on a great show......very suppressive fire...... like a heavy machine gunner. In alpine(guessing that matches boreal) fired bout 13 shots stagger fire to get to overhear point. Think i'm gonna drop the 4th ppc and get a flamer sword.

[aniviron]

Tarogato, on 02 January 2015 - 06:13 AM, said:

If they nerf the TDR-9S, then suddenly Innersphere will be lacking any sort of counter to Clan range on Boreal Vault. We kinda need the 9S to be able to stand a chance at playing their game.

Though, going from 25% to 20% wouldn't hurt it too much, I reckon.

This is very indicative that something is wrong with the TDR-9S. Either buff the rest of the IS mechs to be as good as it, or nerf the 9S to be as good as the rest of those hundreds, but either way, right now the 9S is head and shoulders above anything else the IS can offer, and the other Thunderbolts aren't much better.

I've always been a bit perplexed by the absolutely massive buffs the TDR line has been blessed with in quirks. They weren't a great chassis before the quirkening, but they were hardly the worst, even among heavies. But for some reason, they have been the recipients of unprecedentedly good quirks.

[Bishop Steiner]

DV McKenna, on 02 January 2015 - 04:18 PM, said:

Question i haven't seen you on in my friends list but then i generally observe the unit list more, how much CW have you played Roland?

I dislike Bishop as much as the next guy (infact i can't stand him) but he has some solid points here in this thread and it's sad that someone i know can field a decent argument is reduced to just trolling him because you can't argue the 9S quirks are OTT

if they don't hate you, you're not doing your job.

[Alistair Winter]

Did someone already point out that the Thunderbolt PPC quirks should have been given to the CPLT-K2 instead? No? Because I could point it out, if you want. I don't mind.

[Bishop Steiner]

Thorqemada, on 02 January 2015 - 04:20 PM, said:

Watch the latest Edmiester Twitch Stream - reduncolus...

naw, rational argument and documented footage from comp teams are irrelevant....the Thud is fine!

[Brody319]

Is has the greatest chance of winning when attacking in CW. I'm sorry but they have lights that go 150 KPH, causing hitreg issues, carry 32 ice cold alphas. They nuke the generators fast. like stupidly fast.

When defending on the Vault unfortunately, they have ridges and cover all over near the doors. There is no range disavantage on Vault or Sulfur. You have plenty of places. You know if you just Don't stick your face out they can't shoot you right? So if you are getting shot, stop standing out in the open!

[Bishop Steiner]

Alistair Winter, on 02 January 2015 - 04:41 PM, said:

Did someone already point out that the Thunderbolt PPC quirks should have been given to the CPLT-K2 instead? No? Because I could point it out, if you want. I don't mind.

already did, but the more the merrier!

[Kuritaclan]

Ultimatum X, on 02 January 2015 - 04:29 PM, said:

Quote

Oh please, do hop the gates, leave cover and charge into 36 ER PPCs. That will get me to the next match that much faster.

If you think this can't be done, then that's something you'll just have to experience. No point getting into a war of words over it.

Jumping the gates is in need of high coordination, what leaves it to the big premades lets say 10+ more likly 12man only. In most cases (all random/random plus small groups of a unit) it is no viable option. And even if you can do so with the premade, you do not can say that you will be ahead after droping over the gates. Since it is situational and question of how damaged your group has get before and the chance of the pack of 9s to fokus. It could be excuted and have a chance in sucess but it stays little compared to all fights. Bringing a couple 9s which can execut range dps sniping is more likly to win you a game than counter this 9s's and stay ahead.